ACS is now involved
SS10 has issues. I've been telling SO this for a while already. He lies every single day. He says he does his homework, and when we ask him to show us, it's complete crap. He writes on the paper to make it look like he did work, but all the math answers would be wrong and the reading log won't make sense. He gets in trouble in school on a weekly basis and the teachers are always calling to complain about how he's not paying attention.
This week, he apparently told the dean after being caught in the hallway without a pass "my father's not going to do anything". So for the second time in a month, SO hit him with a belt. He only got to whoop him about twice before I got out of the room and stopped him. The first time SO hit him was around the 2nd week of September after a teacher called him. SO told him that this year, he had zero tolerance for his crap and he would address it with him every time the teacher complained.
Turns out SS10 decided to tell the teacher that he got hit. He knew he would get hit and had told the teacher he was expecting it that night. The teacher told him she didn't think he should be punished that way. I guess he liked that response and informed her the next day of what happened. Please note that this was the second time every SO hit him, and maybe the 5th time in his life SO used physical force with him (he spanked him a few times before).
Of course, teacher calls ACS. She just met SS10, so she doesn't know him as well as the other teachers do who have a history with him. ACS comes in yesterday, makes sure he has no marks and tells us that no objects can be used to hit a child and that instead maybe taking away things he likes will be better. Thing is, we've tried that. It works while he's punished but once he's off punishment he will literally start his shit again.
Do you think he shows remorse? Absolutely not. He's acting nonchalant, like if nothing happened. Lied again after the caseworker left tonight about doing his homework and had the nerve to ask me why he had to do a reading log on a book I picked for him. Sings in the shower, snapping his fingers to the music in his head. Just acting like he has no idea of what he's doing. And he probably doesn't realize how serious this all is.
I really dislike him right now. I'm trying to find something, anything that reminds me of SO but all I see is his mother's fucked up ways in him. His lack of remorse, his attitude.
I told SO he needs to be evaluated for ADD. He didn't listen before but I think he might now.
This kid needs serious help. And I'm not the one to help him.
I'm finding myself getting strict with DD8 months because the thought of her turning out anything like that kid scares the shit of me.
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Well your DH kinda set
Well your DH kinda set himself up for that visit, don't ya think? The boy is a pro at lies and manipulations so your SO should have known better than to have spanked him. If he didn't respond well to the first beating then what made your SO think it would help the second time? I don't know what you should do with this kid honestly but spanking him is only going to get you and your SO in serious trouble. Maybe have him talk to a therapist and make him write lines everytime he lies. There has to be something
I can count on one hand the
I can count on one hand the number of times either of my parents raised a hand to me. I am not someone that supports spanking kids but at the same time I am not one to believe a smack is going to emotional break them.
That being said, when your SO reacted with his belt it was emotional frustration and not a punishment for the action.
Think of it like dog training, everytime the dog does something right (or wrong) you have to enforce (of discourage) the behaviour immediately EVERYTIME the behaviour happens.
You cant punish for lying with a smack, then ignore the kid lying for a week then hit him again for it later. Yes hes a human not a dog and he knows better but reality is, you cannot hope to change the behaviour if you dont respond every single time. Thats why changing behaviour is so difficult, particulaly when its evolved.
My step brother pulled an abuse claim once, we had some social services visit and they found the claim to be fiction. They basically told my father and step mother that they were sorry that my step brother was being such a brat.
What happened? My father and step mother were furious, like, super furious. As Im sure anyone would be and Im sure your SO is now, but YOU need to be furious too, YOU need to be lighting a fire under your SOs ass now, because guess what? If they find any truth in your SO using a belt to beat his kid and that kid goes wild with his stories, guess what happens? Your SO will loose custody/visitation and YOUR 8 MONTH old baby girl will get added to an "at risk" list.
If there is any concern of physical violence towards a child in the home all other children get put on the at risk list, which means depending how far it gets YOU may face potentially loosing your daughter. For what? Lies from the kids mouth and your SOs laziness in parenting him by turning to the belt.
Now ofcourse thats an extreme, worst case scenario but to me, the risk is not worth messing about with.
When my step brother pulled his crap, my parents wiped out his room. He literally went from having his tv, games consoles etc to just having his bed and his clothes with a wardrobe.
Normally in our household, once we were home from school we entertained ourselves until dinner. After that my step mum was on his ass from the moment he got home (she was at home so was able to) so he would come home, and be at the kitchen table doing his homework or any other tasks step mum gave him up until dinner. He was grounded for the first couple of weeks but after a week or two of absolutely nothing he was given the ability to start earning things back.
And personally thats the path Id be choosing in dealing with your SS but it needs to be SO as the driving force. The parent needs to do the parenting, but you really need to be lighting the fire under SO and supporting him along the way. Which means you will need to get heavily involved, it will mean lots of time without the tv on, without music on, with sitting at the table going over homework or other school work or chores lists etc. And your SO will need you to help him else it will fall apart within the first few days.
I dont know your arrangements but Im guessing there might be sometimes you are home alone with both baby and SS in which case before this goes into play you need to have a family meeting.
You, SO and kid sit down and have SO tell him that hes had enough with the lying, youve given him time and time again to change the behaviour and he hasnt so now he has his consequences to face. Strip his room, put a lock on your room and keep his electronics locked away. Tell him what is to be expected of him, tell him how he is now supposed to entertain himself (without the electronics) because these days, half the time they dont know which ways up without some electronic device to tell them.
Second has a very valid
Second has a very valid point. I read your post today and I actually moved on. I am anti physically disciplining a child no matter how restrained you are. On reading her response, she took me back to my younger years and a movement that began in South Africa which went world wide.
http://www.toughlove.org.za/
It is only used when all other forms of discipline have not worked. Essentially the child loses all privileges, even having a bedroom door. You earn them back. If the bad behaviour returns, the tough love returns. It is usually used on children older than mine which is why I had forgotten about it.
Additionally they have support groups. I cannot stress enough that while smacking may seem like the only solution left, it often makes defiant children even worse. I am speaking from personal experience.
Teachers are mandated
Teachers are mandated reports. If one of my students tells me he was hit with a belt, I have to report it. Knowing the family and the kid's history means nothing.
If I made the decision not to report it, later on something happens to the kid and it's discovered that I was told about an incident and did nothing, my ass would be up the creek. I would lose my job, licenses, pensions and run the risk of serving jail time.
I see that you and I are in
I see that you and I are in NYC.
That worker may make several visits to the school to speak to the kid (and possibly the teacher) to ensure that the kid isn't in danger.
The funny thing is, I saw the
The funny thing is, I saw the change in him when the caseworker came. He kept coming in and out of his room opening the refrigerator door, humming, just acting like this was all a part of our everyday life. I believe that the teacher without realizing it is causing a divide. Now we get to the be the bad guys, SS10 is the victim who no one understands, and the teacher gets to be the saving grace. I don't for a minute believe that kid won't go to school today and tell her all about how I wouldn't let him do his reading log on "diary of a wimpy kid" (because he's seen the movie so I don't think he's even reading the book). Everything we do is going to be magnified in his head. I'll play the villain, we have to teach him responsibility and accountability now before he really does something he can't take back.
The day before yesterday he was telling me the teacher might call but it's all a misunderstanding. His friend told him he wanted to touch a girl's butt and SS10 dared him. SS10 says when he saw the boy behind the girl, he fell behind to see if the boy would do it. The boy then touched the girl and SS10 said the girl didn't even feel it. He then said when he saw the girl talking to another girl he tried to see what they were talking about and the girl's friend told him not to go near them because he knew what he did. SS10 denied it. Just like he denied having anything to do with his best friend getting expelled from that school in June for bringing weed in the school (or what he thought was weed). Apparently a boy who didn't like either of them tattled on them and when they got caught SS10 said he didn't know what they were talking about and that the game the weed was in was his friend's.
It's always everyone else doing the dirt, he just happens to be around when it happens.
I tried explaining to him the other day that that girl can press charges on him. He said she couldn't because he didn't do anything. He just doesn't get it.
SS10 said his best friend's
SS10 said his best friend's brother sold weed and I guess the boy wanted to go show it off at school? Thing is, who was the boy giving it to? The story is all screwed up. SS10 said that he asked the boy to borrow a game and that a boy who doesn't like both of them told that there was weed in the game. SS10 then threw the game in the garbage and that's where the teachers found the game after the other boy told. Not sure whether there was really weed or what, but the principal had SS10 write a statement (with no parents present, after they spoke to SO) and all I know is that the boy he claimed was his best friend then got expelled.
Tommar, if I believed that
Tommar, if I believed that was true, then that's one thing. But here's what I think happened: I think SS10 asked for weed, best friend brought it for him, boy who doesn't like them saw and told, SS10 found out, threw the game in the garbage. The issue is the fact that I believe he is lying. He said one story when it happened back in June (that he didn't know why the teachers thought he had anything) and in the beginning of the school year in September, he gave me a different story (said he missed best friend and then admitted that there may have been weed in the game but he doesn't know why).
He also began hanging out this summer with another boy from school who lives in the neighborhood, really nice kid. Parents are super nice also. A couple of weeks later, SS10 comes home and says he no longer likes friend. We're confused because we've seen how the kid operates (SS10 snuck in an Ipad to school once and recorded what goes on in class and that was the ONLY boy paying attention and doing what he was supposed to do). I told SO to speak to the kid's parents because it was weird that SS10 was saying they were no longer friends. I also wanted to make sure he didn't steal anything from there: side story: because this summer after dropping off SS5 in Florida, we stood with these really nice people who SS10 stole a bracelet from, gave to SO in front of everyone on his birthday, got caught by SS15 who told us what he did, and SS10 pretty much lied and lied until he had to admit he did steal it. I told SO that this wasn't good because when SS10 gave him that bracelet in front of everyone, those people who he stole it from were present, knew, but didn't say anything because they love SO so much, they don't want to give him bad news about kid.
Anyway, the boy's mom didn't want to say what happened. SO pushed her to please communicate because if SS10 was doing something wrong, we needed to know. She then said that SS10 told her he had a credit card and that he could buy his friend anything and that he had an Xbox for him. This was because SS10 wanted his friend to visit and he couldn't find any other way to convince the kid than to lie. So when the kid found out it was a lie, he began to cry and his parents got out of him what happened. They didn't like what SS10 did so they didn't want the boys together.
These are just some of the reasons why I don't believe SS10, again other than the fact that he lies on a daily basis. If I did feel that his initial story was true, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But he's the same kid we took all the messaging apps off the Ipad because he was texting that best friend that he "was drunk and fucked up", had "stank dick", was "fucking" a girl. But in our face he's a completely different kid. So maybe we should be happy he has enough sense to create a façade for us?
ETA: In any case, every single person he interacts with ends up having issues with him, even every single one of his "friends". Even the super nice kid told him he lies too much! When one 10 year old is saying that to another 10 year old, it shows that that's not even normal on a peer level for them.
That teacher did what our
That teacher did what our union, NYC DOE, The Mayor, The Chancellor....has instructed all teachers to do. She HAD to make that call. Why in the world would the teacher put her career on the line for your SO(or any other parent)????
I get it Disney, I really do.
I get it Disney, I really do. My issue is that this is not a true case of abuse, the kid is not abused. Even if he was, which he's not, it's not like I ever had anything to do with it, yet now my name is in this. Now MY kid is dragged into this and I'm affected by something that really doesn't pertain to me. SS10 is not my responsibility, he is SO's and his mom's responsibility. But for both of their lack of parenting, this kid ends up where he is, which is understandable to an extent. However, now MY life is affected by this and it's not a good feeling. But I totally understand why mandated reporters make the report. If this was truly a case of abuse, they would have been able potentially save a child.
Tommar, I'm with you on this.
Tommar, I'm with you on this. I'm even thinking of giving custody on paper to my mother in case shot hits the fan. It's so bad now, I'm even afraid SS will lie just to get out of trouble not realizing what the consequences are. Trust me, Disneyfan had me thinking. I've been researching right now. It does look like there is a possibility, even slim that my daughter can be taken away. I'm not okay with that at all. Btw, BM had visitation suspended. She had an opportunity to see them Sunday but said she's too busy. This after not seeing them since last September. I told the caseworker BM is in the process of being evaluated herself. Idk if it's hereditary but I think SS might have been mind fucked permanently by her.
I never changed my mailing
I never changed my mailing address so her address is on my license. DD also already has a pack n play there. But I already told the caseworker I live here. So do I just tell her I no longer live here or shouod SO tell her when she calls for the next visit? I've never dealt with acs nor do I know anyone personally who has so I could use any pointers.
Thank you all for your advice
Thank you all for your advice and insight. I'm not against spanking, but I believe a lot of the discipline/structure should have been in place from the early years. SS10 has gotten this far because SO turned a blind eye to everything everyone was telling him. He's been so frustrated with him that he hit him twice in the past month because it's finally hitting him that no it can't be just us, the teacher, his friends. Literally every single person SS10 comes into contact with has an issue with him, even his friends stop talking to him "because he lies too much".
He's charismatic, he's funny, he's okay when it comes to home, but he really sucks at school work. It had even gotten to the point that both SO and I told him that getting the highest grade doesn't matter, as long as he tries his best and puts effort, that's all we want. But consistently he lies about how he's doing in school and homework. SO is now working on his schedule with his boss trying to get a different shift so that he's home with the boys (read backstory on that if you guys want to, he had changed it before and this is part of the problem). I don't have regular hours so sometimes I'm home at 4pm, sometimes at 9pm. But I usually work 2-4 days a week. So you guys are all right in that the kid needs consistency.
I believe it has to come from SO because I'm the stepmother so all I feel it's going to do is breed resentment in SS10. Case in point, last night after SO left for work, and the caseworker left, I asked him if he had finished his reading log. He tried to change the date on one of them and show me an old one. I told him if he was lying again, he was going to keep getting in trouble. Suddenly he realizes that he gave me the wrong one and began searching for the one he did, which he never found. I told him he could just go to bed, it was 930 at that point. I told him he could get up early to do it (SS15 wakes up at 6am). I told him I'd check his homework at 7am.
By the time I went to check it, he left for school. At 7am. School opens at 730am. Called his dad and told him what happened. SS10 most likely didn't do his homework and left before I could check it.
Disneyfan, you're also right. DD8 months is in the report according to the caseworker because now all the kids have to be looked at. She will be visiting twice monthly. She had him take his clothes off again to make sure he didn't have marks. And I get that teachers are mandated reporters, I'm also a mandated reporter so this makes it super frustrating for me too, because I didn't agree with the hitting to begin with, and I wish SO would have listened to me about SS10 when I met him. But do you know how many times SS10 comes home and says his teachers are picking on him? We know how he is, so we've never called ACS on the teachers. Again, I totally understand because I probably would have done the same thing if I were that teacher, but it's still frustrating.
I just finished taking the Deadpool hat out of his room I bought him this week. SO has already taken out the Spiderman costume I bought him for Halloween yesterday. I'm also waiting when he gets home to take the watch I bought also. I will be cancelling his Xbox gold membership from my credit card. We're taking his sneakers away and buying him Payless ones (he loves his sneakers), not only because of this but also because there are issues he has with making fun of kids who have no brand sneakers on. SO is taking away the Ipad. He will not watch television. He can read as many books as he wants during this transition. And we will remind him that he has the power to change his circumstances by just putting an effort into his schoolwork.
By the way, another teacher called yesterday afternoon, saying that he has to stop forgetting his homework at home. Meanwhile, I made sure his homework was in his bag before he left for school.
SO and I were supposed to go on our first date since me getting pregnant tomorrow and I told him he should cancel it because I don't feel right going out to a concert knowing we have all this crap going on. He also had wanted to go to the movies and while I would love to go and take SS15 out since he's been doing so good, I don't know if this is the right thing to do right now. It might be too much too soon for SS10. Stripping his room of his toys, and especially the Ipad is going to drive him up the wall I'm sure.
Stepparenting is draining.
OP, you have to know that you
OP, you have to know that you and your daughter are at risk. If this kid continues to lie, your daughter could end up in foster care and you could lose your job.
If he tells a big enough lie that causes an ACS worker to say he has to be pulled from the home, they will pull your daughter as well. They aren't going to take one kid out of a dangerous home and leave another kid there.
Have you thought about living apart until your SO can get his kid under control?
The other thing I meant to
The other thing I meant to say Disney is that I can't think of what SS10 could say that would cause them to be removed. SS15 will be 16 next month, he's practically an adult. He can speak for how the family is. Everyone can speak on my character and on SO's character, but I don't know that SS10 would be considered credible given his history and the fact that most people that have come in contact with him (including his peers) can attest to how much he lies. He also doesn't exhibit any other signs of abuse. He's probably considered overweight, has no marks on his body, he's pretty well taken care of. I just don't see what he could say that would cause him to be removed. Unless he said something like he's being molested by SO, in which case, even if he did allege that, I would not stay in that environment (but of course I won't say anything like this in front of anyone so that SS10 doesn't get ideas). Even if he's a liar, that's an allegation that would make me really uncomfortable and I've seen enough to take my daughter out of any potentially dangerous situation. This? This is SS trying to see how much he can mess things up, again.
I wonder what excuse for belt
I wonder what excuse for belt "whoop" she'll find for DH when that baby gets ten and has the audacity to 'frustrate' Dad?
OP... no matter what all this kid has lied about in the past he did not lie about getting hit with a belt. Stop trying to justify and downplay your husband's actions. It's his own usage of a belt that got child protection services knocking at your door. No one deserves a belt whoop.
Tommar, I'm frustrated. I'm
Tommar, I'm frustrated. I'm not with the whole hitting with a belt, this is why I stopped it. But SS10 also knows that I'll degend him so he does act a little stupider for it. But while I don't agree with SO,I understand why he did it and I'm trying to be a support system. Maybe this is what it took for him to let the fears of stigma go and have SS10 evaluated.
ETA: and I'm not mad at skid for telling. I'm mad that he feels like he shouldn't be punished for consistently lying and doing bad in school. This is why he he's being punished. It's long overdue.
Do not lie to ACS about where
Do not lie to ACS about where you live. If you like about one thing they will not take your word for anything. You have already told them you live there. If you lie, and they think you are lying, they will make late night visits to check. Getting caught lying is not good.
Is SS10 in counseling/therapy (outside of school)? I may have missed it, but I didn't see any mention of it. If he is not, it is time for his dad to find a counselor/ therapist for him now. School counselors are good for school related problems, such as doing homework, but his issues are beyond the scope of what a school counselor can /should handle.
Ifthe kids are pulled, ACS
Ifthe kids are pulled, ACS will consider a family placement. Since the kids are siblings, they will try to place them in tge same home. The fact that you and your mom live in the same building, the chances of the kids going to your mom are slim to none.
IF they let them go to your mom, her apartment has to be able to meet ACS guidelines. All radiators must be covered. Bedrooms must be true bedrooms (must have windows and real closets). If she's above the 1st floor, all of the windows must have bars on them. She must be able to get the kids to weekly vists with you and SO at the agency. She also had to be able to get the kids to the agency fir doctor visits. Foster kids are examined by the agency's doctors, not your pedestrian.
If they place the kids with mom, and a surprise visit reveals that you and SO are seeing them outside of the agency, the kuds will be pullef again. They will do a regular placement. You will not know where they are (unless the kids tell and they will). You will only see them during the weekly visits at the agency. They do not have to keep the kids in the same borough that the parents are in. Foster parents are free to transfer the kids to new schools once they are with them. The foster parent can toss your daughter into the day care center of his/her choice.
Do not lie or play games with ACS. They know every trick in the book. If you are able to fool them for a short time, your daughter will pay the price when they find out.
The best thing for you and your daughter may be to take the same steps BM2 took.
I'm not trying to fool them.
I'm not trying to fool them. Truth is, lately since DD has been crawling, I go to my mothers for a big portion of the day. I put DD to sleep by 9pm so take her to the apartment about 730 to give her a bath, and set her up for bed. The only thing I'd have to do is sleep there with DD. BM2 left the state. No chance I'm doing that.
What are you going to do if
What are you going to do if ACS knocks on the door at 2am? Do you and SO plan to tell SS to lie if he's asked where you and the baby live? What about your neighbors?
You're playing with fire.
SO and I have talked this
SO and I have talked this whole thing throygh, we've done some research. There is nothing in the law that says using a belt to the buttocks is illegal. Even so, that's already done. SO and I disagree on corporal punishment but I don't believe he will be hitting him again, much less with a belt. Someone on this thread said hitting is lazy parenting, I mostly agree with that. Again, SO was not in the habit of hitting either skid, he just got really frustrated this past year and he made a bad decision by hitting SS10 with a belt. He spoke to his boss about this whole thing, he's been in his job for about 15 years now so I'm sure boss will be able to change his schedule. Hopefully that can offer skid more consistency in his life and more structure.
In the meantime, my question is...If he's not being hit, but rather punished in the politically correct sense (We're taking tommars advice about stripping the room) what would be happening in our home that's considered abuse? The only thing I thought of is that SS10 could lie and say he's getting hit, but then it's his word (which would be a lie) against SO's, and everyone else in the household. I don't know that abandoning ship and messing with DDs stability because SS10 lies too much is the right thing to do. I want to support SO through this, plus he's my backbone with DD (gets up in the night, stays with her while I'm at work). Is the possibility really that great that they could be placed? Again, especially considering that SO will no longer spank?
ETA: I'm still not sure how probable this is, so I'll be meeting with a lawyer just to protect DD.
It wasn't once. You said
It wasn't once. You said September too. And don't forget past history has a habit of trailing around and raising it's head. True or not your SO has a history of allegations of physical and mental abuse dating back multiple tomes and many years (aka all the BM1 accusations and filings).
When ACS comes knocking you can pretty well bet between initial visit and opening a case to next visit they'll have done their homework. Lying and/or misleading ACS would be extremely stupid. I'm not sure they'd accept fully or halfway 'move' as change of residence. What you're suggesting is merely running up and down a flight of stairs in the same house/building. And the idea of removing a child from potential endangerment does not mean live upstairs all day and run downstairs to bath and sleep.
ACS has deemed the home not an immediate imminent danger or they would have removed kids straight on. I don't care if you have to bag up and bury the damn belts in a vacant field... get the belt idea right the hell out of your SO's head. Now. The fool can wear elastic banded pants if he has to.
ACS could actually help you pursue getting SS referenced for evaluation (You mention SO has some crazed idea about it being stigma). They can help SO with resources for counseling and parenting classes. There are also support groups they could direct SO to if for example SS is diagnosed ADD/ADHD or another difficult to handle condition.
School and home life could both drastically improve for all of you, but whooping a kid with a belt isn't the answer. There are medications for example for ADHD/ADD, that help children focus in school work, help them think before compulsive actions.
It's not hopeless. SO is not evil and his son is not the devil incarnate. But SO has to be willing to seek help for both himself and his son.
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Wow, this has turned into
Wow, this has turned into quite the mess.
While I don't agree with using the belt and neither do you it seems, I understand the frustration and see how your SO felt it was his last resort.
My concern with this child is the lying and the the stealing and him not seeming to a have a conscience. The other kids and some parents see it but can't put their finger on exactly whats wrong. But they all feel it and distance themselves from it.
He's never the one actually doing anything but he's the one orchestrating it and then he sits back and watches the fall out. I honestly think it amuses him.
I'm not sure at what age they can diagnose BPD or Narcissistic PD but I think he and you would benefit from an assessment.