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Experience with parental alienation?

Solidshadow7's picture
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Children can be really susceptible to adopting the mindsets of those people who they spend a lot of time with. Think about how similar you are to your own parents, we tend to have similar religious beliefs, work ethics and morals to our parents. And if one of our parents (or stepparents sometimes) really hates something or someone (whether that's Donald Trump or the other parent) that tends to rub off on us. Something happened yesterday that really made me think about this- I was in the car with my 3 year old SS when I received an aggravating text message from the BM making it obvious how completely insane she is. Without even thinking about it, I read the message aloud to the child's father, and vented about her ridiculousness and how incredibly anxious her existence made me. (She is extremely high conflict and off her rocker. Their custody arrangement had to be determined at trial because her desire after they split was for the child to not be allowed ANY contact with the father.) The child was sitting quietly in the backseat and is slow for his age and barely verbal- I didn't really think about whether or not he was listening or whether or not he was able to even understand me. He only knows a handful of words and pretty much ignores people most of the time, so you don't really worry about what you say in front of him, at least not yet. The text message from BM also requested an immediate phone call from her son, so right after I had my little flipout to the father, I called the BM and put SS on the phone with her per her undiplomatic aggravating request. And SS refused to speak to her AT ALL. He literally threw a huge tantrum until the phone was taken away from him. He understood that mom was making us anxious and upset and somehow determined from this that mom must be upsetting to everyone, himself included and acted accordingly. I mean, he was fine 2 hours later, screaming that he missed his mommy, but it was that easy to temporarily at least make him want nothing to do with one parent. It was completely unintentional on my part, but it was an eye opening observation. Parental alienation can be accidental or intentional, and can seriously mess the kid up, and/or mess up the life of the alienated parent.

For those of you who are step parents, or bio parents who are separated from the other parent, or both- I am trying to gather any personal stories of the other parent attempting to turn the child against you, or you attempting to turn the child against the other parent (if you are willing to admit to it.)I want to know what evidence of the other parent trash-talking about you that you may have, and I want to know how long this has been going on for, what effect this has had on the children-if any, what the current situation is, and what the custody arrangement is. There are many people on this forum who mention PAS'ed skids that won't see them anymore, and ive read about the eventual adoption of a SS whose noncustodial parent attempted to alienate the child, and it backfired- the child began to dislike them and preferred the stepparent as a parent.
"Parental Alienation" describes the child being taught to dislike or actively despise one parent by the other. If one parent attempts to alienate the child, sometimes they are successful, sometimes they are not, sometimes it backfires with the child disliking the parent doing the alienating, and sometimes they are partially successful, meaning they succeed for many years, but the child eventually wakes up to what's going on around them and chooses to reestablish a relationship with the parent they were alienated from-- and they may or may not reject the alienating parent at that time.
From what I have read, it seems that the success, failure or possible backfiring of this tactic depends mostly upon the custody arrangement. If the custodial parent (often the mother) repeatedly says bad things about, or makes the child feel guilty about liking or associating with the EOW weekend parent (usually the father) they can over time convince the child to dislike the EOW weekend parent, with their ultimate goal usually being the child's refusal to see the EOW weekend parent, and the hopeful eventual removal of the other parent from the child's life. However if the EOW parent regularly talks badly about the custodial parent who is a much larger influence in the child's life, this tends to make them look crazy and backfires on them, making the child feel closer to the custodial parent who is being spoken badly of, and they may begin to dislike the EOW parent instead.
This trend is even more marked when reviewing cases where the child is successfully abducted by one parent. When one parent takes the child and leaves the country, it can take months or years for them to be located by the other parent and the authorities. One of the complications that can be encountered in returning the kidnapped child to the innocent parent is that the child that has been abducted for months or years will usually REFUSE to return to the other parent. The child vastly prefers the parent who is now a CRIMINAL and bears no ill will against them for having basically taken away their entire lives by removing them from the country and the other parent. This puts judges and law enforcement officials in the unfortunate position of having to use force to physically retrieve the child from the parent who kidnapped them. This has caused difficulties even for friendly countries intent on enforcing the hague convention because many judges have a moral issue ordering a child be physically torn from the arms of a loving parent (a kidnapper and a fugitive but still a loving parent) and forced to return to the other parent while the child screams about how much they hate the left behind parent they were kidnapped from and how they never want to see them again.
It seems from what I've read that children can only be successfully turned against parents they don't see often. The less they see the other parent, the easier it is. I've also read about what to do to protect yourself and your relationship with the child when the other parent is the one doing the alienating. People in these situations support "taking the high road" and "refusing to say anything bad about the other parent" and "confronting the child with facts and truth, saving court documents if you need to" and also "holding out hope" that one day the child will realize what is happening and return to them. And sometimes they do. 10 years later. It just seems from what I have read, that taking the high road is not a very effective defense. People advise it because they don't want to damage the child any further than the other parent already has, but this also results in the child being left completely at the mercy of the alienating parent as the good parent is pushed out of their lives little by little- until they are old enough and hopefully realize which parent truly loves them.
I specifically would like to know if anyone has dealt with an "active alienator" with a 50/50 equal time (or close to) custody arrangement (or has been the alienator themselves). What happens when the child sees both parents roughly equally and one parent is intent on turning them against the other parent or the stepparent or both? Or maybe they're not necessarily "intent" on it, but they're so bitter about the divorce they constantly vent their own pain and anger that was caused by the other parent at the child and have the same effect. Who has experienced this with equal time arrangements?

notsurehowtodeal's picture

Why do you want all of this information? Are you writing a paper or a book? Your first paragraph offered an interesting anecdote. But once you veered off on a combination of a lecture and a game of 20 questions you lost me.

One thing I can say from personal experience, and by reading these boards, is a child can be turned against a parent they see on a regular basis.

ldvilen's picture

I think everyone always tries to make this too complicated. Manipulative, controlling BM and weak, enabling DH = step hell. BM and DH are not on the same footing just by being bio-parents. BM always has the edge regardless, even if she was 99% out of the picture and on drugs when the kid was growing up. Hate to use this term, but some here have used the term Golden Uterus. BM always will be given a pass on her behavior by her kids, bio-dad gets at least a few passes, and SM or step-dad gets zero.

This is why even if BM doesn't have primary custody, Pathogenic Parenting or whatever you want to term it is much easier for BM to put in place, even if it is just accidentally on purpose. Heck, I've even read more than once on this site where BM passed when SK was young, dad remarried a nice woman a few years later, SM and dad raise the child from a very young age, and despite SM pretty much being the only mom SK has really known, it is almost like BM is still alive putting a bug in SK's ear that bio-dad and SM are losers. BM's influence is that strong.

TangerineSky's picture

I have been meeting up with my SOs BM every week to pick up his son. After about 6 weeks of doing so, he started to get used to seeing me and was excited about it. A few weeks ago, he started to frantically cry every time he saw me. Now, we have known him to suffer separation anxiety because she has been hovering over him his entire life, but he always calmed down immediately after he could no longer see her. I don't really let him watch tv at our house because I think socializing and learning how to play with others (he is an only child) is more important. So we spend a lot of time together laughing, singing, learning, playing, and reading. He typically clung to me (I think because I am a woman), but something has changed. He has seemed very distant for the last few weeks when we have had him, almost afraid of me. I can't imagine why he would be, as the worst I've done to him was sit him in time out and play with his toys until he stopped throwing his tantrum. She has always hated me, and I think she may be starting to fill his head with lies. When he would get excited about seeing me, she would get this weird look on her face and then get angry. I'm not sure if she thinks I'm trying to replace her, or whatever else is going on in her head, but in all honesty, I'm just trying to love him the best I can. I noticed a difference in her demeanor when he started to cry again whenever he saw me, almost in utter fear. She gets this little smirk on her face and then tries to disguise it with something else. He is still very very young, but he can understand more than people think he can, and I believe she is trying to sway his opinion of myself and my SO.

Thumper's picture

Ma'am, Sir:

The proper term is Pathogenic Parenting. Society must stop calling it, "Parental Alienation"

For further education on this very serious matter Look UP Dr. Craig Childress Phd

You could also go to You Tube and put his name in the search bar. And Facebook page.

When you google Dr. Childress "Parental Alienation" HE will explain why calling it by it's proper name is 100percent necessary. Don't let the "Parental Alienation" in quotes lead you to believe that term is ok.

**Not all things are "Parental Alienation"**

ChiefGrownup's picture

Yes, you can alienate a child who is seen more or less 50-50. Our bm is a mild to moderate PASinator. She does not desire full on PAS because then she'd end up with her kids full time which would be bad in her eyes. She loves having her weekends free.

She PASs by saying denigrating things about my husband. Around age 14 she sat SD down and told her the alleged "whole story" of their divorce which was nothing short of a fairy tale. It made my DH into an abandoning ogre Simon Legree. She failed to mention she wanted the divorce even more than he did and that she made out like a bandit in the settlement.

She allows SD to miss school to a level of legal truancy; she does not enforce homework or on occasion has done the hw for both skids; when dh tries to parent in re school BM goes all Perils of Pauline heroine, "I will always be there for you, kid," "Oh mean dad, daughter is a good girl! (who said she wasn't?!!!) and so forth. Always positioning the dad as someone who is mean and brutal and doesn't really care for them or even like them.

My husband is gentle to a fault so this is particularly heinous. Anyway, those are some examples of what I consider a mild to moderate PASr during 50/50 custody. Yes, it has worked. Even though she spends considerable time with her dad and he does all the doctors/dentist/ortho appointments and so much more, she claims bm does "everything" for her and her dad is good for very little.

Rags's picture

I both cringed and chuckled during your recounting of your rant in the car over BM's toxic text. Be careful about those little quiet ones (kids). They pick up far more than you may think.

My SS was one of those kids. We always (thought) we were careful not to discuss or badmouth the SpermIdiot or SpermClan when the Skid was present. It turned out that we were wrong. We coined the term Daddy Dickhead for the SpermIdiot when we were discussing his crap and also the term SpermGrandHag or The Bitch from Hell for SpermGrandMa.

Not long after his 3rd birthday the phone rang, my wife answered, and it was DickHead wanting to "check to make sure (my wife) and the kid were okay" and to cry and whine about how much he missed them, how much he loved my wife, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This was more than 2yrs after my DW had left him and a year after we had married.

Rather than listen to his bullshit for more than a few seconds she told him "wait a second" then told the kid "its for you" and handed the phone to SS. He took the phone, listened for a second then said in a loud boisterous happy voice "HI DADDY DICKHEAD!!!!" I spewed whatever I was drinking out of my nose and my wife was mortified. Fortunately Dickhead and the biodads first name sound much alike over a land line when spoken by a most nonverbal toddler.

Never again did we ever refer to anyone in the SpermClan by anything but their first names after that.

As for PAS and the extent of exposure to a PASing parent Vs the target parent... I agree that the likelihood of successful PASing is greater when the CP with significantly more time with the kid is the one instigating PAS. I also agree with you that taking the "high road" is entirely a failed strategy and in fact is tantamount to idiocy on the part of the parent who is the target of PAS.

Full confrontation, presenting the full palate of facts forward to the kids (in an age appropriate manner), the community, the legal system, etc..... is by far a more appropriate and effective strategy in dealing with PAS.

I do not fit the demographic that you are looking for input from but as a custodial step parent (married to the CP) in our blended family situation I was a co-target of SpermClan PAS though with limited long distance visitation (5wks summer, ~1wk winter, ~1wk spring) the SpermClan was operating from a severely flawed basis for their PAS efforts.

Document, document, document... and present the facts each and every time the opposition steps out of line.

It works.

If they are reasonable then be reasonable. If they are not.... full frontal destruction within the bounds of the law is in order.

IMHO of course.

Rags's picture

That is a pic from my Sr. year HS year book. The pic is of the infirmary team which is made up of the school nurse and three cadet first responders. I am the cadet farthest to the Right in the picture next to our School nurse. The cadet on the far left is my HS BFF.

Solidshadow7's picture

I posted the above because I am worried about the future and am trying to learn everything I can about this so I can hopefully nip problems in the bud before they get out of control. I am in the unusual position of having thoroughly researched what I am getting myself into and not walking in with my nose in the clouds expecting life to work out with the SS when the BM is extremely high conflict. Here is the situation-

First off, let me mention that the child is a result of condom sabotage so you understand what kind of BM I am dealing with here. BM still lives with her parents, the woman is a child herself. She has never had a job, and has never had to do anything for herself. She is an only child and believes the world revolves around her. When I first started dating my BF 6 months after she dumped him, BM decided he would no longer be permitted to see the child at all, she cited me as the reason. Which is when he filed to establish paternal rights. Between locating her to serve her and getting a court date, this took 6 months during which she completely denied visitation. During that time she sent him several messages stating that if he asked to see his son again she would file for a restraining order, and a few more threatening him- telling him to sign over his rights to the child or else. In other words, completely insane. When they went to mandatory mediation, BM refused to mediate unless I was brought in because she wanted to meet me. She then decided that I was safe to be around the child, but insisted that the father was not, even though her original issue was me. She then began allowing visitation, but now was insisting it be supervised by me. A lot more craziness was involved (she denied paternity, made false domestic violence allegations, etc), and eventually the case went to trial.

Unfortunately, the judge had another hearing that ran over, and didn't want to stay late. So he refused to hear evidence outright, announced it was a new day and he didn't care who had done what, that they both produced half a child and they were both getting 50%, and he couldn't care less what evidence they had. The father lived in a different county, so he made up this roughly 50/50 schedule where the child would attend school in the mothers county (because the courthouse was located in the mothers county,) but the father gets 3 weekends a month (till Monday morning) and alternating holidays and the entire spring and summer breaks (save for 1 week). It came out to like 45% to the father, but he gets the bulk of the child's free time so he didn't complain.

Considering how insane this woman is, I forsee heavy duty pathogenic parenting on the horizon. We don't even have the final CO yet and she is already in contempt, but that's a separate issue. BM's father has already apologized for his daughters behavior to us- he has told us she has been coaching the child to call dad by his first name, and that he has had to ask his daughter to stop referring to the father as "the monster" and that he has repeatedly asked her to please stop telling the child that his father doesn't love him and wants him to die-- but says he can't control what his daughter is going to do. The child has also picked up this weird habit of constantly asking where I am at all times when alone with my BF. We suspect it is because she has told the child he is not safe unless she or I are present and that he is not allowed to be alone with his dad. My BF receives constant criticism from her via text and at the exchange. Sooner or later she is going to directly step on my toes, at which point I will stop being nice to her. (To placate her somewhat I have been sending her pictures of the kid when he's with us, checking in with her a few times a day to let her know her son hasn't fallen off a cliff yet, etc.) When I get fed up with her and stop trying to be civil (because I am really at my wits end with this nut job) she is going to start talking constant crap about both of us.

And I personally do not want to end up dealing with a SS that hates me because his mother has trained him to and a SS that refuses to see his father because his insane narcissistic mother has forced g-d knows what into his head. I foresee enough behavioral issues cropping up in a kid partially raised by someone that unstable to begin with. I know that if my BF had EOW, there probably wouldn't be much we could do, but with this arrangement we have a chance. (Although it wont be nearly as easy as if she only had EOW.) I don't know for sure how to proceed on this. This is one of those things where everyone tells you to "take the high road" but taking the high road clearly doesn't work, so I don't know what to do. Everyone tells you to never speak poorly of the mother in front of the child, but it would really be best if the child understood from a very young age that mom is a few cards short of a deck. Ideally, my BF and I stack the deck against her so her efforts backfire. But I do not know how to do this. That's what I was wondering has 50/50 custody and one parent trying to alienate the child from the other. I am foreseeing the issue before it occurs and am trying to take preventative/defensive measures. I need to know what to do.

ldvilen's picture

Whatever you do, do NOT take the high road unless YOU want to. This also includes sayings like, "suck it up and take it," etc. People might as well be telling you to lie on the floor like a doormat and let everyone wipe their feet and walk all over you. These were all sayings created to blow off SMs and "politely" remind them that they are supposed to contend with being the lowest priority. I liken it to when abused women are told that they "must've done something wrong" to cause their man to strike out. So, if that is what you're hearing from people, just treat it as soft hot air and let it blow by.

There is a major key player here that you haven't mentioned much--your DH. I admit, with a manipulative, controlling BM, you already have one strike again you. BUT, is your DH the type who would have your back, are you and him a team, etc.; or, is he the type who would be a Disney dad or weak and enabling with BM and/or his own child? Think deeply. What has his past behavior shown and be honest.

Another thing, I think you are overthinking or over-researching this. The problem is, there is a lot of bad advice out there from non-SMs and even some SMs (who don't have to contend with manipulative, controlling BM and weak, enabling DH). There is even a lot of bad advice from so-called professionals. If you over-research, you will be confused, believe me.

Many of us have loving DHs and have made the best of our situations with his children. I have to say, for many of us, if we knew what we were getting into, we may have not have proceeded that far with our relationships. However, this goes for pretty much any marriage--you look back and think, 'boy, if I knew that was going to happen, maybe I would have made different choices.' In reality, it is what it is and you can never tell what is going to go down in a marriage or with children to come, regardless if whether you are in a step-situation or not.

So, first of all, you have to decide if you have one big strike against you or two? Just a manipulative, controlling BM or both a manipulative, controlling BM and weak, enabling DH. If it is just one, it may be manageable. If it is both, look out.

Let's say it is just a manipulative, controlling BM. If that is the case, you need to step way back and let your DH handle this. It is his issue. It doesn't matter if it was a boo-boo condom or not. He had sex and regardless what everyone likes to think, everyone over age 12 should know that sex can = a child 9 months later regardless of any type of protection that is used. He needs to take responsibility for that, own up to it, and take responsibility for his child and dealing with the child's mother.

I don't doubt that BM is a challenge, but at the same time, right now she probably feels like her child is being taken away from her. I'm not saying that excuses any of her behavior, but I'm sure you can relate to how that might feel. Basically, you need to stay out of it. You should not be doing anything to placate BM. You should not be sending her pictures, checking in with her, etc. You are giving this already problematic woman even more fodder. Seems to me like she has both you and your DH catering to her every whim.

You are to be SO or wife to your DH, and that is pretty much it. Your DH will try to get you to take on his child battles, believe me, but all that will do is screw you in the end. It will wind up with SK or BM being first, DH being second, and you being last. You will be the one expected to suck it up and take it. In reality, if anyone needs to do the sucking up and taking it, it is their parents.

Again, step WAY back. Stop doing research that was probably mostly written by men who have absolutely no clue what it is like to be a SM. Society in general thinks that SMs are supposed to sacrifice everything for some child that they had no part in creating and for a divorce that they had no part in. In reality, SMs have every right to their independence as anyone does.

So, let you DH take the reigns. I'm not saying you can't support him. I'm saying just don't get so involved and try to solve everything for him. AND, stop kissing BM's butt. You and your DH need to establish that you are a new home and that your DH and you are a team. Your DH needs to lead on this.

And, remember, at the end of the day, what kind of relationship your DH and son have is up to them and on them. If you want to shoot for a good relationship with your SS, you and your DH need to set boundaries, be a team, but at the same time, DH needs to be doing the vast majority of the parenting. But, like any relationship, what happens at the end of the day is pretty much a crap-shoot. There is absolutely NO way to guarantee you and SS will wind up being buddy-buddy someday no matter what you do.

Solidshadow7's picture

I need to give you more on the dynamics to respond-

We were together before for 3 years. We were best friends for 5 years before that. We broke up over a bunch of extenuating circumstances and were both seeing other people for a while, (no commitments) but were still on good terms and were talking about getting back together. Nobody cheated, he was free to do what he wished as I was I, and we both knew what the other was doing. We were both counting on condoms being 99.9% effective plus supposedly she was on birth control. The now BM wanted a commitment and he wouldn't give her one. She secretly stopped taking the pill and slit the corners of all the condom wrappers with a razor blade because she knew he was going to leave her and go back to me if she wasn't pregnant- and it worked. She correctly assumed that he wasn't going to leave her with child. She didn't count on getting bored of him a few years later and the two of us then working it out.

Part of her insane behavior is because she knows the child is the last thing he wanted, so in her head that means he doesn't love the child and hopes it dies. She believes that he would just allow the child to wander off into traffic in the hopes it would solve the problem she caused and has told me as much. (Hence what she has been telling the child) Another part of her insane behavior is BM essentially forced herself pregnant to get rid of ME. I was the ex that her new boyfriend wanted more than he wanted her and it drove her insane with jealousy. She pretty much "made the ultimate sacrifice" to keep me out of her life and keep the boyfriend from going back to me. So the way she sees it is, she failed, I showed up and have more or less collected the boyfriend, and now I have taken her son along with him. The woman she sabotaged birth control to eliminate from her life will now be helping to raise her son.

In other words, BM is living her worst nightmare right now. She self manufactured this situation by being insecure and unstable to begin with, but me being the SM is literally her worst nightmare. She forced a child upon a man who was very clear he didn't want one, and the man has now stepped up and dragged her through the courts for partial custody when she honestly believed he would simply go away after they broke up. She's being nice to me because she is less worried about me right now than she is worried that the father might attempt to eliminate the child because he didn't want a child with her, and she believes if I am on her side, I won't allow him to hurt her son.

This dynamic, aside from resulting in an absolutely looney BM does give me an advantage as a stepmother. DH never wanted a child with anyone but me, and as far as he is concerned I should have been his son's mother. The only reason I wasn't is because BM insane and manipulated the situation to what she believed was her advantage. Without her horrific act, it would have been my son. Which means he has no respect for her as the child's mother. After she completely denied visitation for six months which left the child with noticeable trauma issues, (the three year old now has panic attacks when daddy leaves the room) he has no respect for her abilities as a parent either. He also understands that his having a child with another woman is not exactly an ideal situation for me, and he feels very badly about it.
This means the relationship is his first priority. There is no possibility of Disney dadding or catering to BM's wishes. He's been pretty clear I have equal say over how his son is raised and he may even grant me permission to override him if I can back my perspective up because he's the one who was dumb enough to be trapped by her in the first place. I am expected or required to do absolutely nothing for the child as he recognizes it's not mine, which means I only do what I want to. In other words I read bedtime stories and have pillow fights while he bathes, wipes, dresses, and feeds him. We went away for the weekend and I was expected to do nothing more than sit in the hot tub with a glass of wine laughing at him while he chased the toddler back and forth across the pool for three hours while completely exhausted, it was pretty funny.

The traditional stepmother enters the situation from an inherent position of weakness because the kids were there first and she is the "new" thing or the "outsider" that the husband now needs to integrate into his life. In my case I am the "normal" or the "constant" and the child is the new thing that needs to be integrated into both of our lives. Yes the child is three and not exactly an infant, but BM made it difficult for him to be involved from the beginning, even when they lived together. She agreed to give the child his last name so he wouldn't argue with her, but secretly wrote hers on the birth certificate. She stayed home and took care of the kid or delegated it to her parents, while he worked all the time. He had to take her to court to be allowed to be a parent to his son, so in that sense it's kind of a new thing.

The reason why I have been doing some of the dealing with her is because he's too angry with her to be diplomatic. The way he sees it this woman ruined his life for her own gain, and has now set out to ruin his sons too. The only thing this woman loves is herself, and the child is merely an extension of her own greatness and a trophy for her. He's also pretty angry about 10,000 in legal fees (while he's in college no less) to just be allowed to SEE his child. I can't say I disagree with him, however I figure stirring the pot when you're already dealing with a maniac is probably not a great plan. I don't think its good to allow him to antagonize her right now, at least not until the ink on the court order is dry and we have worked out a BM management strategy.

So with all that said, she is likely going to spend the next 15 years doing whatever she possibly can to turn the child against him and I. We are united front and have the child 50% of the time, so how do we counteract her poison?

ldvilen's picture

Sorry, but this doesn't give you an advantage: "This dynamic, aside from resulting in an absolutely looney BM does give me an advantage as a stepmother. DH never wanted a child with anyone but me, and as far as he is concerned I should have been his son's mother."

As I said above, BM always has the edge regardless, even if she was 99% out of the picture and on drugs when the kid was growing up. BM always will be given a pass on her behavior by her kids, bio-dad gets at least a few passes, and SM or step-dad gets zero.

You are trying to use logic or common sense. This does not work in step- situations, believe me. And, your situation is really not any different from any of ours. I agree, there are many different SM scenarios, but the one thing we all have in common is that we are expected to sacrifice everything for a child that we had no part in creating and suck it up for a divorce OR failed-relationship that we had no part in. This last part would not apply, if course, if bio-mother passed prior to dad getting together with SM.

Also, The traditional stepmother enters the situation from an inherent position of weakness simply because she bears the title "SM." This is why more and more I'm starting to prefer the title Dad's wife or SO. As that is her main role--to support her DH. It doesn't matter if "he's too angry with her to be diplomatic." He needs to be dealing with BM. And, again, it doesn't matter if it was due to some "oops" moment or not. None of that matters. You cannot change who bio-mom and bio-dad are. Don't get me wrong, your DH and you may very well have a right to be angry, but that is not going to change reality.

In reference to your question: How do we counteract her poison? My advice from above still stands: Basically, you need to stay out of it. You are to be SO or wife to your DH, and that is pretty much it. Again, step WAY back. Stop doing research that was probably mostly written by learned men who have absolutely no clue what it is like to be a SM. So, let SS's father take the reigns. He needs to solve this, and not you. You and your DH need to establish that SS is in a new home and that your DH and you are a team, and that there will be certain boundaries in this home. This applies from beginning, all the way up to adulthood. Your DH needs to lead on this. AND, that is pretty much all you can do. You cannot control BM, nor even your SS.

And, believe me, I'm being kind. If you posted this on the General page vs. Co-parenting page, for example, you'd have plenty of BMs and then some going after you, like a pack of wolves going after a bunny-rabbit, for even insinuating that this child deserves to be yours and DH's vs. DH's and BM's.

Solidshadow7's picture

It seems like if on this forum the poster is usually the bunny rabbit. Let the internet trolls do their worst.
I only spoke about DH's feelings on this woman's behavior and what it means for how he will handle the situation, I never spoke of my own. But sure, I'll lay it down to brass tacks.

If a woman is raped and concieves, and the pregnancy comes to term, I think most people would react with revulsion to the rapist receiving even partial custody of the child if he wanted it. They would all agree he should have to pay child support, but people will shudder at him having even supervised visitation, let alone 50% custody. Hey let's even assume that the rapist really wanted the child, and plans to be a great father. Let's argue the only reason he raped her is because he couldn't afford a surrogate and had some kind of ball cancer and this was his last and only chance to have a child or something like that. None of that matters does it? Something in your chest still recoils at the idea of bestowing him with the honor of "father." And the reason why people emotionally recoil is because he only achieved that status by violating someone else.

A woman who sabotages birth control violates someone in the worst way possible short of murder. A child being an accident is one thing, even a child born of rape is still an "accident" it probably wasn't the guys intention, plus the woman still has the option of an abortion. A man who uses birth control is not planning on a child. He recognizes that a child may occur accidentally, but the risk of child is extremely small, with 2 forms of birth control the chances of an accident are less than 1/1000, even with regular intercourse over the course of a year--meaning the chance is small enough to be negligible so he doesn't really worry about the risk of sex. Now when someone sets out to become pregnant, the chance of pregnancy suddenly skyrockets to 75% per individual incident of intercourse. If the man knew that the risk of getting the woman pregnant over the course of a year is greater than 100% (as it is when someone fertile sabotages birth control) there is absolutely no possibility he would have slept with her voluntarily.

This is a much worse violation than simple rape. In rape the only violation is the intercourse. In this situation? The man would not voluntarily have sex with her if he knew about her deception, so the intercourse while "voluntary" is a violation of his body just as it would be a violation of a woman's body when she is raped. In addition, she has subjugated his free will and taken his reproductive freedom away from him, violating him at the deepest level by forcing a child upon him, which he then has no choice in whether or not to keep. This child is no accident of fate, it is a burden she forced upon him by choice. She has dictated the course of the rest of his life by her act, and he is absolutely powerless to do anything about it. A rapist violates only the body, a birth control sabotager violates the soul as well.

So to be honest, yes, I do believe you need to do a little more to earn the title of "mother" than spread your legs while intentionally subjugating someone else's free will. If this belief makes me out as the bunny rabbit and renders me as a sacrifice to the legions of internet trolls, so be it. I do understand that some women do this, some women even feel that they have the right to do this, but it is a truly awful thing. People may not agree with me, but its difficult to respect her as a "mother" for the same reason that the same people would believe a man needs to do more than rape someone to earn the title of "father."
And even if we are going to sweep all that under the rug and say its the man's fault because he decided to have sex and the rest of the situation doesn't matter, we also have a mother who is damaging her children. A mother who after 3 years completely cuts the father out of the child's life and starts telling the child he has no father? And when the father refuses to go away she tells the child his father doesn't love him and wants to kill him? Do you know what kind of damage this does to a child? This kid is barely old enough to talk and she's already taught him insecurity and self hatred. She has somehow created a 3 year old who has panic attacks. (Not tantrums, panic attacks) I feel the same way about the drug addicted BM's who want nothing to do with their children. If you can't act like a parent I do not believe that you should be respected as one. The kids may choose the bio parent first but that's a mistake on their parts when the bio-parent is useless and I won't support it. They are kids and only know what they are taught. Clearly some children need help learning to choose better.
You tell me that logic doesn't work in step-parenting and maybe it doesn't, but it should. Just because step-parenting apparently totally sucks doesn't mean all stepparents should just lie down and let the BM and BF dictate how this is going to go just because they happen to be related to the child. I mean, these are our lives too. We have a right to control our own homes, and we have the right to control how children who live under our roofs are going to be raised. And I understand the whole disengagement thing, and not doing too much for children who will probably never love us unconditionally the way they do their parents because they aren't blood related, but you know what? I don't think that means we should all automatically give up. Children only know what you teach them. Stepparents do not have a set "role." Most of them try not to step on the bio parents toes. I am going to make up my own role if I have to and if someone's toes need to be stepped on, I am willing to step on them. Besides, if you're going to call us "step"parents doesn't that imply it's our job to step on the parents when necessary?

But realistically, I am not really all that spiteful. For the most part I don't waste my time with it. I'm not confrontational and for the most part believe in live and let live no matter what someone does to you. I feel bad that the woman is so crazy and feel bad that her own parents did such a poor job of raising her that she behaves this way. I wish her the best and certainly hope she sees the error of her ways some day, but I am not going to bow down to her and will do whatever I need to do to defend myself and my DH. And to defend my DH I need to defend the child against her poison too, whether its my child or not. And if the child wishes to bow to her because she gave birth to him that's certainly his right, but I will not support it and nether will my DH. Whether or not the child ever finds out we don't support it,we don't know yet, we still need to figure out what's best for the kid which is why I keep posting because I am trying to figure out how its best for us to proceed.

In its simplest terms- My DH is 100% supportive of me, the child is very sweet, and the only problem with the situation right now is that we already recognize that BM is nuts. I need to figure out what I need to do or what my DH needs to do when the other parent is actively trying to turn the child against him or us. We need to work out a battle plan, and we need to do it now BEFORE her behavior begins to affect the child and become a problem for us. I understand my role is to support him and that's all I am doing. He wants to know what he can do as the father to control what goes on in his own house when he has only has his son half the time and the other half of the time the child is in an extremely toxic environment that he cannot control. I am trying to help him figure it out.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

In rape the only violation is the intercourse.

I completely disagree. Rape is a physical AND mental violation. It is not something that can just be "washed off" or "put aside".

Solidshadow7's picture

Well, no I don't disagree with you. You are correct in that it is a violation on multiple levels, I just didn't state it that specifically in my post.

ldvilen's picture

Don't take this the wrong way, but this line, "In its simplest terms- My DH is 100% supportive of me, the child is very sweet, and the only problem with the situation right now is that we already recognize that BM is nuts" pretty much sums up almost every SM's interpretation of the family dynamics she has gotten herself into. The more seasoned SM's truthfully recognize the role their own DH has played in creating such a dynamic. SMs may come here to vent and some get carried away, but I don't think anyone on these pages would ever agree with you that your DH has been "raped."

I can't help you. You seem to think that your situation is unique and so god-awful unfair. It may be god-awful unfair, but it isn't unique. Join the club. My best advice is to go through these pages and she how other women have handled this situation. There is even a bio-free section.

This paragraph is very, very true: "You tell me that logic doesn't work in step-parenting and maybe it doesn't, but it should. Just because step-parenting apparently totally sucks doesn't mean all stepparents should just lie down and let the BM and BF dictate how this is going to go . . . ." It was a shock to me too when I realized that this was society's expectation. It sure as hell wasn't my expectation. AND, it is NOT most SMs' expectation. On this para., I agree with you 100%, but I also know you can't kill BM, and you have to deal with reality.

For now, we all put up with and fight the best we can, and strive every day for recognition for our efforts. Best of luck to you and good luck to all of us!