Consequences?
So, after last post, Ally (SD4) was grounded to her room all day yesterday after many chances to listen to me and to choose to go to sleep (then later to pick up her books). She is again grounded until her father comes home (as I only grounded her in a couple hour increments ie before school, after school til dad comes home, and lastly until bedtime). I haven't been able to come up with a more suitable consequence after taking away tv time the next day (also done in increments) and taking away her night light.
She continues to put on her sad puppy face and tell me that she wants her mom instead of me. I originally started by saying that I love her anyway and she can be mad and she can want her mom, but that she's not going to get it. Over time, she has been saying it increasingly as much and I have started to slip from my resolve and the carefully calm reply into saying that I don't care if she wants her mom anymore. I know it's really really bad, but no matter how much I tell her that it hurts my feelings when she says stuff like that or that it makes me sad, she still insists on saying it. When I tell her how it makes me feel, she just says "Oh.".
Just feeling a little under appreciated and I know that the sleep problems are not something I can fix unless her BM starts cooperating with us, and I'm still having trouble getting DH to understand that when she's grounded or in trouble that he shouldn't stand at her door and have a long sweet conversation with her and that part of the punishment is not spending time with us because she was being disrespectful the previous night. I just wish he was more willing to let her experience the consequence and learn from it instead of get upset with me because HE can't spend time with HER... It's one night, and aside from that, she came out to eat dinner with us anyway. I hate being compared to Hitler...
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I think that being grounded
I think that being grounded to a room all day is fairly harsh for a 4 year old. Obviously there is a problem here. The goal is to fix it. I dont really think that at 4, she is going to get that I better go to sleep when hanney tells me to or I will be grounded all day to my room the next day-instead what she is likely thinking is that hanney is just mean.
Try to figure out what will soothe her to sleep. Soft music? A different routine? i think reading books quietly in bed at night when one cant sleep is a fine solution in and of itself. You have said that this is a problem not really of her making, but more of her bm's issue. With that beign said, understand that you cannot FORCE her to actually sleep. You can make her go quietly to her room at a certain time, but again cannot force her to sleep. Imagine a 4 year old who is not tired at all, in a dark room by herself, with the door possibly shut lying there for hours because she is not tired. Scary for her I am sure.
I just dont think it is right to punish her for entire day for not being sleepy? You need to not come at this from a punishment angle but to look at ways to fix the problem.
You aren't quite getting why
You aren't quite getting why she's in trouble... She's not in trouble because she wouldn't go back to sleep when I told her to, it's because she woke the whole house up screaming and hollering and throwing a tantrum for no reason. THAT's why she's in trouble. If she hadn't woken everyone up (including our upset neighbors since we are in a small apartment) I wouldn't have cared if she was up reading and self soothing. Secondly, the punishment all day is not for the original offense of waking everyone up, it is for the defiance that followed. I had to get up several times to scold her for screaming and kicking AGAIN & AGAIN.
Besides, we have majority custody so it's not like I'm trying to force a sleep schedule for weekends only. We have her monday through friday. Her BM very often drops her off a night early even. So please don't pin this on me being too harsh. I understand she may be scared and upset, but after trying to calm her down and offering many many chances, she made her own grave, even if she is "only 4". That sounds like what my DH says to me about a lot of things, and if I changed everything because she's "only 4" she would be running my house in 2 days time.
We too have this same
We too have this same problems. I am not home with SD without my FDH, but she is disrespectful to us (pouting, saying no when asked to do something/or coming up with her own ideas, not pottying by herself, having a fit when FDH goes to the bathroom or outside (with explanation that hell be right back in), and lastly not going to bed at bedtime without making it a huge ordeal (screaming and crying, making herself throw up or coming outside of her room)
We used to have tv in her room with a dvd playing so if she wasnt tired at 9 she could watch it till she fell asleep. Shed do the above even with it playing! I yanked it out fast when she wouldnt lay quietly until she fell asleep. Its never gone back in, and that was 2-3 months ago.
FDH continues to spank her and she continues to act badly. I have said that the nightlight will go off and the door will close if she cant lay quietly in her bed until she falls asleep. I believe those two consequences are tough, but they also work.
I think that SD4 should be able to play in her room by herself, while we cook dinner, or while FDH showers or whatnot. She throws a fit and wants to be up FDH's ass the whole time shes here. Hes not allowed to do anything alone without it being a huge deal. This behavior has to stop as it will always be this way if its allowed.
If I am ever with SD alone Id be the fastest to send her to her room to play if she gets mouthy with me, but also if I needed to tend to BS she needs to go play as well. She too thinks its a punishment but FDH has recently explained that her room is for play and for sleep, just because shes going in there doesnt mean she bad.
I do agree with someone elses posting of kids not connecting issues. Ive been fuming the next day and very pissed when I go to work and when I get off SD runs up to me, is smiling and says she missed me. They dont remember its a few hours at at time for them.
finally, someone who
finally, someone who understands the issues behind it all and doesn't want to impose their opinions on me! thank you!
I also agree that it may be hard for her, but at the time I couldn't think of anything else to do after I had exhausted all the other things like the nightlight and tv and such. If I had a better consequence, I would have used it instead of grounding her all day. She is very smart though and when I asked her if she remembered why she was grounded that morning she told me that she was in trouble because she woke us all up and because she didn't listen to me. So, I don't feel too awful.
I am looking for suggestions on alternate consequences for her defiance/tantrums still and still plan on using grounding as a last resort.
What I want everyone to know is that this sort of consequence is EXTREMELY RARE in our house; in fact, this is the first time I have ever had to implement it.
How often do you have her?
How often do you have her? Another one we started using is that SD wont go back to her BM until her behavior is acceptable. Going to see BM is currently = GOLD! I dont quite understand it but she really has no interest in doing anything away from BM, and I mean ANYTHING.
We kept her an extra day or two on the weekend that behavior was the absolute worst. It was the weekend I took the tv and FDH had lost all available nerves. Staying asleep is no longer a problem, its just getting to sleep.
She thinks if its not friday she doesnt have to come, and she thinks shes goes home to BM on Sundays without exception, but truthfully BM is glad to have another day without her.
We are now using the 'if your behavior isnt good we will no go to do fun things' (this is from me being totally pissed at her never being thankful for anything and I explained to FDH that I was done until she could act right). And its much easier on me to do it on our SDfree weekend that is also my off weekend with just BS.
I havent decided if its wrong to threaten her with you wont see BM until your good... but it works as well, and when a 4yr old is disrespecting you, you do what works. I also think that non physical ways of punishment are better when at all possible.
I honestly think she is
I honestly think she is throwing her tantrums because she wants attention and your DH is giving in. She knows that he won't let her just cry it out and so she's learned that by having these fits, she will be soothed. I think at this age, even negative attention (spanking, going into her room, telling her to knock it off) is better than zero attention. I think you should start letting your DH handle it when she cries at night. Let him be the one to get up in the middle of the night and soothe her until she goes back to sleep. A few sleepless nights on his part will most likely change his stance on the subject. And even if it doesn't, let him continue getting up in the middle of the night until she is 18. It's his problem now. I think you should remove yourself from this bedtime equation because all the getting up in the middle of the night is going to wear on your nerves, which is probably why you are starting to snap at her now.
I agree with the underlying
I agree with the underlying causes too. The funny part is I can't let dad do it by himself cuz he will just spoon with her (cuz it's a really tiny bed) and just fall asleep with her, then I gotta go get him lol. It's funny and I don't have to get up, but he also babies her and doesn't do anything to curb the behavior of screaming for us instead of quietly trying to put herself back to sleep... Double-edged sword there... but, maybe I can show him your post and see how he responds to someone else thinking the problem is letting her get away with it...
A chore to do instead is a
A chore to do instead is a great idea! I have a small button jar that she could easily count the buttons in... (i think I only have 7-10 buttons lol). The only problem is I want to be able to tell her to do those things then be able to walk away and go back to sleep myself.
lol, i will have to do that!
lol, i will have to do that! too bad she can only count to 10 before she loses count or miscounts hehe. but thank you for sharing your interaction with your SD, now I have another scenario added to my arsenal.
Establishing a good bedtime
Establishing a good bedtime routine is important for really young kids. Yep, she's got her daddy wrapped aound her little finger...incidentally that's what daddy is for in the eyes of a little girl! Hey, I was indulged, it did not cause problems and I grew out of it by the time I started school. Every night I had to get my dad to come and check my room for spiders, he did it too! There could have been forty spiders having a huge party in the corner of my room for all I knew, it was that daddy loved me enough to check it for me. What a little brat I was...huh? I did not get punished, a time out (a time out was unheard of when I was a kid!) or a spank...I felt loved, and cherished.
With SKids they were ten when I met them and, of course there are electronic entertainments these days...SD would chat on the phone and SS would be messing with XBox. As long as they were 'off the floor' so to speak it was good.
Waking up in the middle of the night and screaming is not good, though, does she get night terrors? If so she might be frustrated at not being heard so she screams louder? That's a tough one. Does she get enough activity before bed time? A malted milk drink?
I think I would be stepping back from that one, let DH put her to bed with whatever routine he is used to. I think that it spirals out of control when a child is tired the next day too, tempers get frayed and shit can really hit the fan!
How about giving her a week of going to bed at the same time every night and getting up at the same time every morning? Her body rythms will be out of sorts by now and it needs to be re established. Tell her about 'body clock' and how important it is for daddy, you and her to be refreshed before each day starts.
Punishing kids just makes them surly and resentful, right? Then things get heated and no one feels good.
Suggest to her that if she does not get enough sleep then she might be too tired for the 'treat' that you have planned for her soon. It's 'incentive' LOL NOT bribery!! Give her good images in her mind to fall asleep with. Tell her daddy or you will look in on her after she's asleep and will kiss her goodnight on your way to bed. Kids NEED reassurances, they have totally different perspectives than we do, right? Imagination can run riot and cause undue worry and stress on their little minds.
I am not sure if I am helping you at all, just throwing stuff out there! Good luck!
Well, she has always had a
Well, she has always had a set bed time at our house, but not her BM's. She goes to be every night at 8pm and we have a routine: get jammies on, brush her teeth, read a story, goodnight kisses and hugs, then we leave the room and she is allowed to read for a bit (about 30 mins) before one of us goes in and tells her it's time to put the book away and give another round of hugs and kisses.
She usually tells us when she's crying because she's scared. And when asked during these screaming episodes, she freely admits that she is not scared of anything, and doesn't need a drink or to go potty because she always has a small glass of water by her bed, and tells us she doesn't have to go to the bathroom.
The only thing she says to us is that she "just wants to go to her moms house", which is her way of whining for attention because she only ever uses it when she wants out of something. She knows that her dad will not argue with that line (probably because it strikes a nerve or something, idk) which inevitably ends with him laying with her and them both falling asleep in her room...
I have also tried sympathizing and saying that sometimes I miss my mom too, but when it boils down to it, that is her go-to saying to get out of something she doesn't want to do. Dad has started to wise up to this line over the last two weeks though and has been getting a little tougher and actually telling her no, she isn't going to her moms when she uses it. (It is brought up even if she doesn't want to do silly little things like go to school (which she loves!
) or brushing her teeth. When she says it it's like she's saying: "but this isn't fair! my mom doesn't make me do these things". When she says it and really means it, we can see a very distinct difference in her manner and in her facial expression...
OMG do we have the same SD!?
OMG do we have the same SD!? Lol. My SD uses that line for EVERYTHING! If we have to 'clean up'.. "well my mommy doesnt make me clean up". If its bedtime then she wants to go see BM. UGH!
FDH gets super irritated with this as well, and understandably so! SD is here Fri-Sun 2x/Month! Come'on!
Ive had a fit in the past if FDH thinks hes going to sleep in her room on the floor. Hell to the no on that one. And hes tried it before. She was having an all out tantrum after 11pm, with our BS asleep in the same room. I blew my top and threw her sippy. She was screaming and throwing her arms and legs.. I was mortified!
He laid on her floor. I couldnt believe it. I told him that he is NEVER to give in to what she wants. No way with that behavior. I understand being scared and he used that line about her last weekend. I responded that no shes not, shes stuck up your ass!
We have a consistent schedule that is very routine.. shes not scared in this house, shes used to being babied and expects that to continue. Thankfully Ive been able to turn my FDH around, or I would have sent him packing!
I agree with you, Echo,
I agree with you, Echo, tantrums are a way of controlling the parents.
For instance, I was picking up my friend's son from school one day. This by is autistic but NOT stupid! He usually has a bag of chips and a drink after school so I gave them to him. Routine is important too for all kids, not just autistic ones. This kid begins scattering his chips on the ground so I took them from him, telling him he'd get them when he got home. He promised he would not scatter them if I gave them back to him...OK handed them back...kid scattered them again! I took them from him, said nothing, the kid went into a full blown tantrum so I sat down a distance away from him and made a phone call to my friend, telling her we'd be a little later and not to worry...and she said absolutely...take your time. He stopped his thrashing around long enough to gage the reaction he was getting...I kid you not! I asked him if he was quite ready to go home now and took him home, That boy could not be more loving and respectful to me after that, he was aged FOUR at the time. It's about BOUNDARIES!
Show me any child that will NOT take advantage of an adult who gives them everything they WANT! LOL
Im sorry but I find it quite
Im sorry but I find it quite appaling that she has been grounded to her bedroom all day. As Echo said in her post, kids have very short attention spans. You and your partner need to get onto the same page for parenting and disciplining. If you get that sorted first and co parent effectivley then things will get better with reguards to her behaviour. Seems you are quite bitter and taking it out on the poor girl.
Is she in preschool or day
Is she in preschool or day care?
It's normal for 4 year to miss/want her mom.
Why try to make her feel bad for doing a very normal thing?
Having a 4 year old stay in her room all day is nuts.