thoughts from dh: a tutorial on guilty daddies
until we can get into therapy, dh and i decided to try something new, as the tension is becoming unbearable in our house. discuss the skid situation, but with absolutely no arguing, just listening. then walk away, think things through, and come back with hopefully, a fresh perspective.
here is dh's perspective on our situation:
1) if we just had more family bonding time, i would see what a wonderful child ss17 is and none of these arguments would be happening
2) ss17 is very fragile and a child of divorce, therefore, he cannot be pushed into getting a job or a driver's license or (apparently) doing homework or bathing regularly
3) ss17 needs a good female role model since bm has been largely absent since they divorced (when ss17 was 3 years old). i have been that to him in the past but now i am too hard on him and now he is "uncomfortable" living with me.
(a year ago i stopped doing everything for everyone and started standing up for myself)
4) ss17 will "slit his wrists" if i continue to talk to him in the manner i have been lately.
(he's referring to my other blogs, where i told ss he needed to pay for all of the damage he did to my garden. i have never raised my voice ONCE to him, rather i am factual and consistent about what needs to happen)
5) if i had bio children, dh would welcome them with open arms and would allow me to do 100% of the parenting and would back me up on everything
6) my structure and organization is pushing ss to want to live with bm and that can't happen.
(he gave examples such as my idea of driving practice time is earned with chores around the house-chores not done, no driving time)
7) dh's parenting style is just "different" and "more free spirited" than mine. he believes that ss should be allowed to make all of his own decisions.
my standing up for myself is causing the conflicts in our marriage.
9) he has said many times in the past "18 and out the door!" and *i* was always opposed to that....saying that it feels like to me that dh is throwing ss17 in the deep end of the pool without teaching him how to swim. NOW he says that he's really going to miss ss17 and maybe he should just live with us and maybe go to community college, or something.
10) his children consistently reach out to me, and i shoot them down. NO-ONE EVER has stated that his children are disrespectful. *i* am the only one who has ever had issues with their behavior. they just want me to be a mother figure to them and i simply don't like them.
11) family meetings should resume, with the three of us giving our equal opinion on household stuff (as ss is almost 18 years old and should have equal say)
12) dh TRIED to parent the skids 50/50 with me but i get too controlling, and when i dont get my way, i disengage, which he hates.
and my favorite one of all.....
(before this conversation, i had printed out parts of some blogs from steptalk (with no names, just parts i found relevant to my situation). i showed them to him, in an effort to enlighten him on how i feel and showing him its not just us going through this.)
13) those are just internet strangers making up stories
(please don't be offended, ladies, someone has replaced my once lovely husband with some sort of pod person i don't even recognize anymore)
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Comments
i know, right? i'm trying to
i know, right? i'm trying to let his perspective settle and see where he is coming from but it hasnt been easy...
I could have written this
I could have written this blog word for word, is your husband my husbands lost twin? Well, in one way it is nice to know we are not alone, but on the other it is frustrating because I know what you are experiencing. Unfortunately can not offer a solution other than I am 5 years ahead of you ss is 23 and it does not get any easier. DH is raising a world class loser.
i know what you mean,
i know what you mean, exactly. so so frustrating, but its comforting to know we are not alone. i wish your situation was better
let us know. i'm running out
let us know. i'm running out of options on how to make this work. hopefully, gaining some insight to their thoughts, without all of the anger/bickering, will help. i hope.
I love number 5!! RIIIIIIGHT!
I love number 5!! RIIIIIIGHT! so much easier said when it is not the case. You should hire some kid actors one weekend and tell him that you forgot to mention your long lost bios! See what kind of 'open arms' he gives them! Ha ha! Well, I think it is good to talk about these things. It also gets him thinking.
Yeah, I get the "if you had
Yeah, I get the "if you had kids I'd be there for you" thing too. Well, isn't it fortunate for you that I didn't pop out any little munchkins of my own so you could prove it to me! See if you like taking care of someone else's kids without any real say in the parenting methods.
Yes - I always tell my DH it
Yes - I always tell my DH it is no coincidence he married someone with NO kids (me). He would not even date a woman with kids, when he was single, for whatever reason - yeah, I know-!!!!!
I am sure our DHs would NOT be as gracious as we are 'expected' to be, or they would walk the talk.
so congrats to any guy who will!!!!
You know after reading your
You know after reading your post Most Evil it made me think of something DH had said to me in the beginning of our relationship that he would not date women with children either because it would have been too hard for his son. I guess that was a sign and I was too naive to see it. He told me if I had had a child we probably would not be together. We do have one now and my hubby is really good about being on the same page with me but it took 4 years of hard training and my SS to move in with his BM 700 miles for it to get good. We have been together 7 1/2 years married 6 1/2 and there have been more hard years than easy ones.
Now I am dealing with his 90 year old foster father living with us - I always tell him I brought no baggage into this marriage but yours keeps coming to live with us - I always tell him when we fight about SS, BM or FIL put yourself in my place and how would you feel it does make him step back and back off a bit - I don't know if he really is thinking about putting himself in my shoes but at least I get the point across and usually get what I want.
This is the real story: your
This is the real story: your SS is lucky to have you in his life, setting expectations and insisting on consequences. Period. So he's a child of divorce, along with 50% of the population. Does that mean he is doomed to be an emotional cripple? Whatever happened to the normal conflict late adolescents experience with their parents? That is part of growing up. Your DH wants to "abort" that and keep SS a baby. It is not healthy for him!
Can't remember whether you two are going to counseling but I'd suggest taking this to your own counselor for reinforcement. Nothing less than your SS's future is at stake. DH needs to get over his guilt, it is crippling his son and your marriage. I just don't understand these parents who undermine their own children's maturity.
i agree with everything you
i agree with everything you all have said. after sleeping on this, and reading the responses....its becoming more and more clear just how strongly dh is operating out of fear. its important too, to add that dh was abandoned as a baby....taken in by foster parents, and the foster father died when he was two years old. foster mother died when he was 18. so he has had no father figure around ever. bm abandoned them too. dh is clinging to his children.....and me starting to stand up for what i believe is right is adding to his fear. he is a good communicator and he is supportive of me in every other way, besides the skid situation. (my jaw dropped when he said number 8-i could not believe it because he's not like that about anything else). i have always appreciated this. but when we talk about the skids, the bear claws come out. when they were younger, i understood more and went along with it. but as they get older, and i am teaching ss about taking care of himself, becoming independent, dh is turning on me. i am "taking away" the only solid reliable person in his life. its not fair to ss17 either. dh must not see me as a solid reliable person in his life either and that hurts. i would guess that's why he's been threatening divorce too. if i am not in the picture, then ss17 will never leave him. we need a therapist, badly. all of this "raw" stuff is coming to the surface and we don't know how to deal with it.
Time for an ultimatum. The
Time for an ultimatum.
The kid is almost 18!!! Yay!! This is the light at the end of the tunnel IF you set some boundaries.
It's time for that ultimatum. Draw that line in the sand.
"DH, SS is 18. He is an adult now. He is responsible for his own decisions. It's either me or him from now on. You choose. I will give you X amount of time get SS out of our house and on his own two feet."
It's your life. Take control. Liberate yourself. It's legally and socially acceptable to demand this at this point. I can't wait for the day.
MY DH already knows how I feel about this and my SD is only 8. And the same applies to my Bios and our son. I don't mind him helping her once in a while if it means she's out of my life for the majority of the time. It's the price I will have to pay because I love my husband. And it is the price he will have to pay because he loves me.
thank you, aurora. i do
thank you, aurora. i do think if i gave an ultimatum, it would be the end of my marriage. we need therapy, badly.
Grayskies - This is how I
Grayskies - This is how I would answer DH if it were me...
1) Family bonding time is great! Except we need to be able to act like a real family and not tip-toe around SS17's feelings all the time.
2) SS17 may be fragile, as a child of divorce, that is true. But that's because he has been led to believe that he is a child of divorce and is fragile. Unfortunately, when SS17 does finally get a job, or go to college, there will be plenty of other children of divorce who didn't have special treatment and are thriving. There are also kids who went thru much worse than a divorce - illness, physical abuse etc, and SS 17 will be meeting them all. We are not helping him grow by keeping him fragile. SS17 is not going to get a break at college or at work because he is a child of divorce... so we are not helping him by perpetuating that belief. (**Also SD on here sometimes says things like this to me.. and I tell her the exact same thing.)
3) You're right - SS17 does need a good female role model. Because eventually he hopes to date and get married! By me being tough, I am trying to teach him what a woman will expect out of a MAN.
4) I don't want SS17 to "slit his wrists" BUT also his reaction is inappropriate for the situation. If he was angry with me, I would understand it... teenage angst, whatever. But to slit his wrists, because I talked "mean" to him means he needs therapy. Because not everyone is going to be nice to him all of the time. Especially when he does something that disturbs someone else's productivity. Think about SS17 with another kid, or in school, or at a job.. We need to help him learn how to cope with others.
5) That's nice that you would back me up on everything. It's not that I am not backing you up... I want SS to be the man you are. (** You may have to remind DH of how his parents would have handled certain things. That helped me a lot here)
6) Structure and organization are imperative to bringing a child stability. They may fight it, but they do need it.
7) How did DH's parents raise him?
9) I would tell DH that in the past, he wanted SS to be 18 and out the door, and now he is reconsidering as SS is not ready to leave. The only way that works is if that if indeed SS stays, DH helps prepare him to become a self-functioning adult.
10) This is a big one Grayskies, and I wouldn't discount it. You may not feel it is fact, but it is your DH's perception, and very possibly the skid's perception. I wouldn't try to blow this off, or fight it, or make any kind of argument about it. I would actually take this one in, and just think about it.
11) At 18 SS can have equal say when he proves himself to be an adult.
12) Again Grayskies - this is DH's perception on your behavior. You don't want to be told that all of your perceptions on DH are wrong, so I would take this one to heart and try to think about it, and see where he might be getting that feeling from....
Let me know what you think...
Also - guilty parents think
Also - guilty parents think short term.
All they are thinking is the immediate present and past. They are not generally thinking long-term future.
They think, oh I have hurt my family, I have THOUGHT ABOUT MYSELF by leaving and now I need to make sure that my kids have everything they need and want so they don't feel abandoned, or that I am selfish, etc.
Guilty parents can get on with their own lives, because they know they are adults. They think that because their children are young, they need extra help to get on with their own lives. And that means shielding them from more hurt. When in reality, the best thing to do is accept the hurt, grieve it, and move on. Just like the adult did - but age appropriate.
If you can get your DH to understand this, it will really help.
i like your responses. they
i like your responses. they made me think quite a bit about myself and my own role in this. i have made mistakes, thats for sure. it is hard to turn the mirror on yourself and become more introspective, but its a good way to gain insight, and its something i need to do more of. thanks, stick
These are great responses.
These are great responses. But I think re: 10, my feeling was that he was attacking her and being defensive. "You don't like them." That is what weak people say in response to criticism. An easy out instead of addressing the issue. If grayskies says they are disrespectful--and perhaps she is the only one who gets that behavior directed at her--I believe her. Remember, this is the charmer who deliberately destroyed her garden and left her dog out.
thanks lizzie. i agree with
thanks lizzie. i agree with both of you as the skids ARE disrespectful, and in all honesty, no, i don't like them. this is one of the most frustrating aspects of this entire situation. dh will cover for them for every single thing they do. sd19 once broke every single dish of my new dish set that dh had scrimped and saved to buy. it was so beautiful, and i loved it and that's what she did. then ran off to bm's. dh just said that she's "so angry about the divorce and this is soooo hard for her". granted that was many years ago, but i never got another (nice) dish set and i was just supposed to accept that. there wasn't even any conflict to set it off...she was just being sd and everyone was supposed to put up with her crap. so yes, the behavior gets directed at me, dh covers for them, but i'm supposed to be their mother figure and love them as my own. i do believe, if she were my own child, i would have grounded her, made her pay for a new dish set, and we would have moved on. but dh made that impossible with his excuses for her, and then i harbor resentment.
I'm sorry but I disagree
I'm sorry but I disagree about the ultimatum, grayskies is right that, annoying as they are, just about all DH's points come out of fear and denial. The fear that you've failed as a parent, or are going to lose/alienate your child can be cripping, especially for men who who are great fathers in terms of the strength of their affection and committment, but poor at understanding and managing their emotions with respect to their children and partner. Because of this a good man can be a really difficult husband. My husband has got close to arguing that black was white in the past in an effort to justify his irrational decisons and double standards with regard to his children, but it was all because he was terrified that they would be alienated and he would lose contact with them. I wrestled for a LONG time with 7) "dh's parenting style is just "different" and "more free spirited" than mine"!!!!Which of course is shorthand for 'I want to be easygoing so my children will love me and want to be with me, so you have to be easygoing too even if it means loads more work, which you shouldn't mind because seccretly I want you to love them as much as I do, even though that's unrealistic."
If grayskies wants to be in this marriage, and loves her husband for a lot of great qualities that are not represented in his list, then she has to understand that fear, and find ways of communicating and managing the situation that do not aggravate it, just as he needs to understand her feelings and stop aggravating her. Unfortunately you can get to a point where certain issues have been points of disagreement for so long that neither of you is actually listening to the other and you just repeat versions of the same argument and can't make any progress. Issuing an ultimatum would lead to a destructive standoff and probably end the marriage. Going to counselling will provide a mediator who will be able to help DH see the flaws in his thinking.
One thing I would say is has DH both got his list in writing? Because it seems to me that if he read some of it in print even he might have to review the sense of what he's saying. It sounds like DH has a major double standard, because he wants you to love them as a mother, but at the same time he thinks you're not automatically entitled to an equal say in their parenting. And your chore/driving time idea sounds great!
thank you i just read an
thank you
i just read an article about adult spousal status in which the psychologist pointed out that secure parents parent with high levels of care and love and high levels of structure. guilty parents parent with high levels of love and low levels of structure, due to fear. that made sense to me. it feels to me like what dh is doing. but when i approach him with that thought, he gets defensive and angry and accuses me of calling him a "bad parent". so it can't be me anymore. we need a mediator to help us walk together with good forms of communication and at least give some guidelines on how to make this situation workable. otherwise, i believe divorce is imminent and i truly don't want that. dh DOES have wonderful qualities that i adore and love and i want this to work out to where we are both happy. i did take notes on his list, so that i knew i heard him correctly....maybe i will show him the list and see how he feels about it.
"Which of course is shorthand for 'I want to be easygoing so my children will love me and want to be with me, so you have to be easygoing too even if it means loads more work, which you shouldn't mind because secretly I want you to love them as much as I do, even though that's unrealistic."
please please tell me how you dealt with that, as that description fits dh exactly.
Gray, maybe you could post
Gray, maybe you could post that link, I am sure a lot of people would benefit. But it's sad. Guilt-parents may think that what they are doing will preserve the relationship but it seems it undermines it in the long run, as the kids don't have any respect for their parent and are not required to. So the parents are left with a shell of a relationship usually based around what the parent will do for the (adult) child.
i typed in "adult spousal
i typed in "adult spousal status" and kind of bounced from page to page to page reading different articles.....i will look for the exact one this evening and post it, if i find it. sa, did you bookmark it?
i think my dh would have the same reaction as yours. he wouldnt be able to relate to it because he doesn't see himself in that position.
OK well I have to say that I
OK well I have to say that I didn't have a strategy as I was bumbling around completely inexperienced and engaged in recurring rows about parenting and housework, but looking back these are the things I did that made a difference:
1. Expose DH's secret irrational expectation that I should love his children as though I were their mother, and do everything that a mother would do, but without the reward of their unconditional love, or of genuine equality in term of how we parented them.
2. Try to disengage from housework and make it clear to DH that if he wants the children to do less, than that's his choice, but HE has to do more. They are his children, and his responsibility. This is pretty much word for work what I ended up saying to DH after many, many rows about housework. This was not easy, I like my house tidy and clean, and I had my own way of doing things, but the fact is that if you step in and take up the housework slack, pretty soon you're cushioning your partner from realising exactly how much work is involved in enabling the children to do nothing. I gritted my teeth and ignored the dirty dishes left lying out in the kitchen overnight, and the scum building up in the bathroom. I kept the bedroom clean and tidy so I had one sanctuary and left the rest of the house to DH and the SKids. I found that when DH had to do most of the chores himself even he began to resent the SKids lying about with their feet up.
2. Start small and build up momentum. This felt like defeatism when I started, I couldn't get any kind of chores assigned, so I had to make do with any concession I could get. I would say my first achievement was changing the dishwasher routine so that everyone was responsible for taking their own dining things from the table and placing them in the dishwasher. Before that DH would cook and serve the meal, then collect everyones plates and take them into the kitchen. The kids literally just had to wander in and eat, and wander out again. With hindsight the start small approach addressed DH's fear of alienating the children by allowing him to see that they could accept minor tasks without flouncing off back to BMs house. Gradually we began getting the children to tidy their rooms more regularly, put away their own clean clothes etc. Now they help with meals, set the table, unstack the dishwasher etc.
3.Stress how structure and practical contributions benefit the children. I.e. give positive reasons for getting them to help, rather than the perceived 'negative' reasons like your being sick and tired of clearing up after them all the time, which tend to make H defensive, and then hostile.
3. Get counselling. When a neutral mediator told DH that chores were good for children and that making a practical contribution made a place a home not a hotel, he listened. My increasingly angry attempts to get him and the children to do more just made him more and more defensive and convinced that my motives were negative and hostile.
Hope this helps, and good luck with the counselling, it was cathartic for us and really changed our marriage for the better.
StepAside - I totally agree
StepAside - I totally agree with this - when I was growing up (my parents adopted 15 kids some handicapped and all from abusive situations) there were some of us that the expectation was we were going to college (there were other that were not mentally able or were headed for the service) my point is that my parents recognized our level of capabilities and we were expected to achieve those levels - not everyone can go to college but my parents expected everyone to get out of the house once they graduated and become working members of society. There were no excuses - once your graduated you were out and there was not coming back unless to visit for a short weekend. All 15 of us were out of the house and the ones that were expected to go to college did not one of us did any less than was expected from our parents because we were taught that there was not alternatives and were raised to be contributing members of society.
My SS and DD are both expected to go to college - there is no alternative plan - they know it and have known it since they were able to talk. SS is going to college but I fear for him as BM has enabled him to stay a baby - he does not have to work at 16 almost 17 and she wants us to buy him a car and pay for the insurance. We refused so now we are the bad parents but I say if you want something you need to work for it. We will help pay for college but all else is on him and his BM if she wants to enable him. I can't see him in the world but I hope he makes it - because he won't be able to come and live with us and we have already told him that. Except for the Summers in between college that is it then he is on his own.
i agree with this, also. if
i agree with this, also. if the expectations are in place and our kids have the tools and resources and support to get there, they go on to accomplish their goals. in our house, its the opposite. ss17 once told us that he has been studying a foreign language in school and wanted to go live in that country once he graduated high school. dh says "yes! yes! great idea!" and my response was "ok, but let's sit down and see how to make this realistically happen. do you have the airfare to even get to that country? would you go to school there or just work? can you go to college here first and then study abroad there later, once you've had some experience and education first?" and dh said "why do you put all of those expectations on him, now he won't go". i'm thinking "who are you, seriously??" if he wants to go to europe, he can get a job NOW and save up for that. he would need to learn better life skills first-he doesn't have a job or a checking account or any idea on how to take care of himself. i don't think his "C" every year in this class will allow him to speak the language fluently, so let's talk with his teacher-maybe she can help him get prepared for that since its only a year away. dh said that was too much pressure on him, and the idea was dropped. the "living in the moment" combined with no expectations of real work to achieve goals is only hurting ss17. and on a side note, sd19 dropped out of high school when she was 14. we argued and argued over that....dh "won" by saying he couldn't force her to do something she didn't want to do.