Well, oneoffour, that seems a bit extreme: to break up with a wonderful man because he has a manipulative daughter. And besides, that is just what she wants! We have a counseling session with this daughter next week. I plan on being honest and authentic at this session. I will tell her that she and I don't have to like each other and that I will make no more overtures toward friendship with her unless she makes some towards me. I will tell her I will treat her like an adult, not like a child to be coddled, and like any other adult relationship, I will not go out of my way to spend time with someone who does not support my relationship to this man and who I am uncomfortable around because of the "elephant in the room." I will also tell her at this counseling session that she is being horrible to her father. No one else tells her this, but I will. She has been rude and hurtful to me, but worse she has been rude and hurtful to her father. I do not expect her to change, but I want this out in the open. Then on the times when I have to be around her I will say "hi" to her, and then to myself, I say "hi" to the elephant and then entertain myself without her. Needless to say, we won't be around her much if this is her attitude. She lives a 6 hour drive from us, and thank goodness, she now has a boyfriend.

Yes, I have planned that we do a pre-nup and draft wills that distribute our assets upon our deaths and state how they are dispersed. I have assets that I want to go to only my kids as his should go only to his. Disbursement of joint assets that we accrue as a married couple will be spelled out explicitly as well.

I suspect that this counselling session will only be a way for me to say what I need to say. I really don't expect her to change. I actually think at this point I think that she is not capable of ever celebrating her father having a relationship with a women; she has been too spoiled for too long, even by her mother before he she passed apparently. If she continues to be an issue in our marriage, then we will need to see a marriage counselor who has no prior relationship with either of us.

Yeah, I don't tell him how "worthless she is." That is completely counterproductive.

I appreciate all of your comments, and I agree, as does my own counselor, that my fiance and I should have couple's counseling over this issue since he is blind to her reasons for acting this way (it is really not related to her mother's death 13 years ago; it is related to her not wanting her dad to have a woman in his life, to her not wanting anyone to get his attention-time-money-etc. except her). Yes, he is enabling her and has perpetuated this behavior in her. From reading your responses, as well as other posts on other blogs, sounds like this is a pretty common dynamic between men, their daughters, and the step mother (or in my case the step mother-to-be). I really appreciate the validation for my own observations and feelings about this issue that you have all shared with me. I have done a lot of thinking about this issue and about this upcoming counseling session (scheduled for next Weds--it was actually scheduled for June 3rd, but two days before that scheduled session, she pulled tears again with her father so they just went to the counselor by themselves--personally, I think she pulled the tears on purpose to get out of that session!). I expect nothing from this upcoming counseling session with him and his daughter other than to get this out in the open, to get to a place where this huge "elephant in the room" is no longer swept under the rug and expected to be pretended about, but rather is acknowledged. I need that for me because I will not pretend all is peachy king between his daughter and me when it is not. I will also bring up the need for him and I to have our own separate counseling over this issue. In all reality, I do not expect her to change. So what we need to do is acknowledge that and figure out how we deal with a "blended family" when one member, her, refuses to view me as family. I am confident that this man will agree to counseling about this. I know he truly loves me and appreciates me. But she has had him wrapped around her little finger for a long time and I think he views it as being a good dad (as misguided as that is). To view it otherwise, he is going to need someone other than me tell him this.

Thank you, Amber, for your comment. Yes, I am working on getting to a place where I just don't care. I certainly hope you get well.
Best,
Baffled-and-sad

Well, it really sounds like he and I should have couple's counseling then. He does not see what she is doing, he accepts her justifications for her horrible behavior, as well as has his own justifications for her horrible behavior. He refuses to see that this behavior is wrong and instead thinks it is all because she lost her mother at age 11 and so feels sorry for her and accuses me of not being compassionate towards her due to her loss. (Note: I lost BOTH my parents at the age of 18 and it did not make me unkind towards others, in fact, just the opposite.) So I will state my position at the counseling session we have with the three of us on Weds (that is with his counselor of 13 years who is also his daughter's counselor of 13 years--and yes, I feel I have no advocate in that session, although I have met with the counselor individually so she could get to know me a bit and had one session with her and my fiance). I will state what I have observed about the daughter's behavior; what I have felt as a result of her behavior; my displeasure at her actions towards me, towards her dad's and my relationship, and towards her father; and my lack of optimism that she will indeed ever change. And -- that he and I get couple's counseling with someone other than this counselor -- with a counselor who has no prior history with him, the daughter, or me -- before we get married since this dynamic could ruin our marriage.

Good advice, StepAside. I will try to keep what you said in mind. I think bottom line is that he and I need couple's counseling on this issue. I have felt all along that I have no advocate in this 3-person counseling session since it is with THEIR counselor. And although I think my observations of this dynamic are right-on, (and many of the comments here say the same thing), I am VERY concerned that any of them will hear me or validate me in this counseling session. I will be taking a mild tranquilizer before I go to this session so I can try to remain calm, focused, and authentic. I have A LOT of anxiety about this session.

Again, very good advice. I will try to remember all that I have learned about "fair fighting" techniques: using I statements, paraphrasing back what I think I heard, not interrupting someone, active listening, etc. I will come back and tell what happened. Wish me luck!

Or then, I may not go to this counseling session with my fiance and his daughter and THEIR counselor of 13 years on Weds. I am weighing that decision now. Although I would love the opportunity to give the daughter a piece of my mind, I think that could backfire, and I can't really see what good would be accomplished by this venue of counseling. She doesn't want to be called on her behavior and it won't sit well with her if I do that and doing that might also spark protective feelings in her father. And it seems like a huge conflict of interest for this meeting to be with THEIR counselor. My counselor said she would not ever do a counseling set up like this where some people being seen in the session have a long term relationship with the counselor and one doesn't. I am already viewed as the outsider and interloper by the daughter. And this dynamic certainly has me as the outsider and reinforces the "me-as-the-outsider" dynamic. Who is MY advocate here? Other than me? It is not a level playing field. I'm wondering if a more productive situation might be that he and I go to a counselor--one who does not know any of us, not me, not him, not the daughter--and deal with a new counselor on how we move forward as a couple in the best possible way, given some of the dynamics that are going on with the daughter and him. And we do this before we get married, which is about a year away anyway, so we have plenty of time. I know I do not want to marry again if I think it could end in divorce. I don't want to go through another divorce in my life. Not ever.

What do you all think?

Yes, he and I just talked about this, and I expressed my concerns about this session with their counselor not being a level playing field and requested that he cancel this session and that we find a NEW counselor and deal with this issue as a couple.

I can't tell you all how incredible this site has been with the feedback I have gotten from people with personal experience in this. Two days ago, I would have not canceled this counseling session because I always want to please, often at my own expense (I know, I'm working on that one). I want to thank all of you for the wonderful insight and incredible support I have gotten on this forum. I will post more developments as they occur.

BTW, he agreed that we go to a NEW couple's counselor. So maybe there is hope. What a roller coaster of feelings I have gone through in the last two days. Whew!

Yeah, we are going to do find a new counselor. He agreed with that. I also requested that this canceling be presented to SD as a joint decision of him and me. He agreed to that as well. WE need to be seen as a couple making couple's decisions that she has no part in and cannot change.

I agree, Wickedsm 123. I realized recently that SD and I do not have to like each other. And I'm fine with that. I doubt she will ever like me, and I certainly don't like her behavior, and I am done with playing the game that I try to get her to like me and she rejects me. It has been going on since her father and I began dating about 3 years ago. My fiance and I are now set up to see a new, neutral counselor. Not sure if we can get in this week or if it will be next week. And, yes, I sense that he wants SD's approval of our marriage, which he will most likely never get. And he really wants her and me to like each other. I just don't see that happening based on her behavior and what I have learned about her in the last 3 years. I am going to ask that he support me and tell her that she is not allowed to badmouth me to him or to our mutual friends (his friends who have now become my friends). That behavior is disrespectful to me, and I would never allow my children to do that if the tables were turned. I would have stopped it after about 3 words. I cannot stop her disrespect; I cannot even ask her to respect me. I am not her parent. He is the only one who can stop it. He walks up to the fence, but he doesn't quite open the gate and put his foot down with her. And he needs to start doing that. He has blinders on when it comes to her behavior. He wants it to be comfortable between her and me the way it is comfortable between my kids and him. But my kids are not possessive of me and were not raised with a huge sense of entitlement. And she was. He seems to think that giving her everything is being a good parent, whereas I have always set limits with my kids. He also seems to think I can do something to make her accept me and our relationship, but I can't. Only he can even attempt that, not that I think she will ever accept me regardless of what he does. This is what I hope to accomplish in the counseling session with only him, the new counselor, and me. No SD! I have been very nice and welcoming to her from the beginning, but I have given up thinking she will ever accept me or approve of our relationship. He also needs to see and accept that, and we work from there as a couple on how to deal with her. I just want him to put a stop to her badmouthing me to him and our friends, which seems to me as an attempt to sabotage our relationship, and I do not want to be around her much at all, only when it is absolutely necessary, and then only when there are several other people around, never just the 3 of us alone for dinner. I do not feel comfortable around someone who wants to dislike me and who does not support my fiance's and my relationship. When he and I live together, she will only be welcome in my home if she is being respectful to me, and I will make myself a bit scarce and do my own thing. I have always supported their spending time alone, just as I want that occasionally with my own kids. But I do not want her in my life in any big way and will not go out of my way to plan things with her like I do with my kids and him. But they support our relationship and are truly happy for me whereas she perceives me as a threat to the kingdom where she has reigned as princess for many years.

So do any of you run into the situation where the dad thinks you can somehow "fix" it so that his daughter accepts you? My fiance has suggested that I write her (my future SD) a letter, but I don't see what purpose that would serve. In the beginning and for most of the 3 years we have been together, I was very welcoming towards her, bought her Christmas gifts, found out helpful information for her about her new college and its writing skills requirement since that is something I have much experience with in my position at the university where I work, invited her to family gatherings on my side of the family, found a colleague who is in the career that she wants to go into in order to get more information about her career choice and network with a professional in her field, all sorts of things like that. But I was met with comments said behind my back that I am "trying too hard" or still treated coldly. She refused to make eye contact with me, or maneuvered it so that he and I didn't get to sit next to each other at gatherings that we were all attending, and still continued to complain about me and say untrue and disparaging remarks about me to him and our mutual friends. It seems like he thinks I can somehow fix this, that there is something I can do to make her feel okay about me. But I can't. I've tried, I've been kind, I've been welcoming, but none of it has worked and I really don't think it ever will. Now all I want to do is disengage from her, but it seems he is really upset that she and I don't want to have anything to do with each other. We have NONE of these issues with my two adult children. They are warm and accepting towards him, so we do things with them occasionally and everyone has a good time. But that is not possible with future SD because she views me as competition and an interloper and that colors all her interactions with and about me. Thank God we start counseling with a new neutral counselor next Wednesday.

So our first counseling session went well. The new neutral counselor said that his telling me all the bad things his daughter says about me needs to stop now. I was able to say that I don't want to be around his daughter because I don't want to be in a situation where I feel uncomfortable, and her hostility towards me makes it uncomfortable for me, so I won't be doing any dinners with just the two of them, nor will I be inviting her to any family gatherings that I do with my family and him. I know there will be social gatherings that the 3 of us will be at, and I can deal with that if it's something I want to go to, like one of the neighborhood gatherings. But I don't want to go and won't be going to any events of hers, like her graduation from grad school or even her wedding if she is still hostile towards me and her dad's and my relationship when she gets married. I also told him that I can't fix this with her. And he seemed to think I could and that her and I communicating would get this healed between us. He even recently suggested that I write her a letter or take her out for a drink the next time she was up. But I have done everything I know how to get her to accept me, and all my overtures of friendship have been rejected and I will no longer play the game of my trying to get her to like and accept me into her world. And I won't be spending time with anyone who doesn't treat me with kindness and respect. I create my world and populate it with people that I like being around. This counselor said that we need to get the SD out of our relationship. She reiterated that it is quite clear the the SD doesn't want to accept or like me and that that is not likely to change, and that is something that he really needed to hear because he kept thinking it would get comfortable between us. She also reinforced I have the right to not want to be around her and that he has the right to see her, which I have always supported. I also was able to say that when she comes up for the weekend, we need to still have at least one weekend night that we spend together, and since she doesn't accept me our our relationship, that one weekend night he won't be spending with her. This is especially important because right now we basically only see each other on the weekends. Not how sure how all of this will play out when he and I do live together because at this point SD would not be welcome in my house. But the counseling seems it may help us get over this issue.

So now I'm not so sure about the counselor that I found that we have seen about 3 times. It seems like my feelings are not being validated in these sessions and I am beginning to feel I have to watch everything I say and how I say it in these sessions, which doesn't feel right. For example, DH said he felt I was asking him to make a choice between me and his daughter (which I wasn't and had told him on more than one occasion that no parent should ever be asked to make such a choice--I thought his D was asking him to), and he said he thought this because when I was excluded from SD's college graduation I got very upset. Then the counselor said, "Well, it was her event," which seemed to imply that I had no right to be upset, which makes me feel that my feelings about things are not being validated at all and I am being told that I shouldn't feel a certain way. I felt that way because it was not only the SD's event but also her father's event being that she is the only child he will have graduate from college, and I wanted to be there with him at this important moment just like he has been able to be at events for my 2 kids that were important events in their lives (and thus in my life). And this isn't the only example. When I express my feelings about being upset about being bad mouthed behind my back by SD and it feels like she is trying to sabotage our relationship, the counselor said, "Well, you are taking it personally." But isn't it personal when an SD says insulting things about me specifically to both her father and our mutual friends? Aren't I allowed to also feel how I feel? Isn't saying that I am taking it personally implying that my feelings are wrong? So I'm having reservations about this counselor. It seems like I am being told that I should not feel how I feel. But according to this counselor it seems fine if SD feels bad about our relationship, she is entitled to her feelings and doesn't have to look at them and try to grow or make any effort, but I have to. What do you guys think?

HELP!!!! Am I crazy or is this a snub? I have another question for this community. My soon-to-be SD (she is 24 years old) is still really uncomfortable around me, so much so that she won't even make eye contact with me. This has been going on for 3 years, and her dad and I have been engaged now for almost a year. After much urging from her father, I wrote soon-to-be SD a really nice, kind, heartfelt letter inviting her to meet with me so that we could try to begin to establish a rapport. This was one of many overtures of friendship that I have made towards her for the last 3 years, almost all of which have been rejected. But I once again "offered the olive branch" even though she has been unfriendly, unkind, unwelcoming, and sometimes downright rude to me for 3 years. This was at Christmas when she was up staying with her dad (we aren't yet married and so don't live together). She got the letter but refused to meet with me the week that she was here for Christmas. Instead she postponed it "to give herself space from the issues." She wanted to postpone it for 2 months until the next time she was up. We texted back and forth about it, and I told her that both her dad and I really wanted her and I to meet while she was up this time. But she wanted "her needs to be respected," and refused to meet with me now. To me this feels like yet another snub. She has been telegraphing loud and clear for 3 years that she does not want to be family with me, and this feels like a clear message to me that she doesn't want to change this. To me it feels that if she had truly wanted to work on establishing a good rapport with me and healing this, that she would have met with me at Christmas rather than insisting on postponing it. To me, that felt like yet another rejection and I feel hurt. Am I crazy or is this as snub? Is sure feels like one to me.