CS laws and 50/50 custody
In doing some research about the New York State CS laws & the history behind it, I learned that these laws (as well as most U.S. states' CS laws) are based on one basic premise: BOTH PARENTS ARE CHARGEABLE(OBLIGATED) WITH THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT OF THEIR CHILD.
With that said, I found it very strange that in a TRUE 50/50 joint custody (physical & legal) situation, that either parent should be legally obligated to pay CS to the other parent - assuming that BOTH parents are healthy and capable of working full-time.
It seems like the current case law in NYS requires a court (judge) to "label" one parent as the "custodial" parent, for purposes of computing child support, EVEN IN 50/50 JOINT CUSTODY situations. In NYS, it is the "breadwinner" parent that is labeled the NCP, simply because they have the higher income. That's all, nothing else. This is the main problem. There is no legal or rational basis for this, and the judges in New York State even AGREE, but say that "their hands are tied" and they must enforce the law as it is - that until these CS laws are changed by the legislature to make them more fair to both parents, this is simply how it must be.
Personally, I disagree with this. Of course, when there is a situation where 1 parent is somehow physically or mentally unable to work in order to support their child (i.e. severely physically handicapped, abusive, etc...), that's different. But what about the majority of situations here in NY, when 1 parent CHOOSES to underemploy her/his self or CHOOSES to be unemployed? Supposedly, the courts here in NY have the power to "impute" income, but they don't do so when they're dealing with the BM/CP and it makes no sense.
For purposes of discussion, I will use the woman/mother/BM as the "non-monied" parent (simply because in most cases, this is true and the fathers tend to be the "breadwinners"), although I do recognize and believe that where a woman is the breadwinner, this should ALSO apply to her as well.
If the basic premise is that BOTH PARENTS are obligated to support their child(ren), then why should it matter if father makes more $$ than mother and why should BM be labeled as the "CUSTODIAL PARENT" in the first place when there's a 50/50 joint legal & physical custody situation? The unfortunate effect of this is that this system ENCOURAGES a BM to not work or work very little, not obtain an education that will lead to gainful employment, etc... This is all very similar to this country's welfare system, IMO. Due to the higher incomes in NYS, there are actually women that use the CS$$ as their sole source of income (earning anywhere between $20K - $100K/year tax free!!).
Where is the fairness in this, ladies??? What happened to us wanting to be treated equally, equal pay for equal work, etc...? We've worked so hard to shatter the "glass ceiling" and to rise above, yet at the same time, women want to be "taken care of" and supported simply for being their child's parent?? This makes no rational sense.
I will insert MY personal opinion about my own situation. I am a self-made, educated, professional woman. I paid my own way through college, earning my Bachelors Degree in Applied Mathematics & Statistics. I then pursued law school (again paying my own way) and earned my Juris Doctorate degree in law. I support myself. Everything I have, I have EARNED with my own money, through my own hard work, "blood, sweat & tears" - I have sacrificed quite a bit to earn what I have today. I own my own house, obtained my own mortgage to buy it, bought myself a new car, opened my own law practice, pay for my own health insurance, car insurance, utilities, cell phone, etc... If I can do it, anyone can do it - it's called HARD WORK.
I say this not to "pat myself on the back, but simply because I am PROUD of these accomplishments. With all of this said, I have often "put myself in a BM's shoes" and have come to the conclusion that if I were ever in the situation where I was no longer with my biokid's father (I'm not married currently, have no biokids yet), I would NEVER, NEVER EVER EVER collect CS$$$ from the father, because I feel VERY STRONGLY about being personally accountable and responsible for my actions. I have too much PRIDE to do such a thing - I can earn my own $$ and support my own child. PERIOD.
With that said, I would hope that the man I CHOSE to have a child with would be an upstanding, hard-working man and would VOLUNTARILY help financially support my child, for no other reason than he loves him, that I am a good mom and that it takes $$ to raise children.
I have read several studies on this and it has been proven statistically that, in general, fathers WANT to be good fathers - and in a 50/50 custody situation especially, it is THOSE FATHERS that WANT to be in their kids' lives and obviously CHOOSE to do so!! For whatever reason, it just didn't work out with the BM. If they are NOT LEGALLY FORCED, UNDER COURT ORDER, to pay these unreasonable high amts. of CS$$, these men will be more willing and glad to financially take care of their own - it's "in their genes", if you will. If they are not dealing with the "fear" of being dragged, yet again, back to court by the BM and what she's "entitled" to under the current laws (more and more $$$), they would freely give whatever financial support is necessary for their child. It is a PROVEN STATISTICAL FACT that most 50/50 custodial dads pay their child support, in full and on time. It is when they are "forced" to spend $$$ they don't have on things that the kids don't necessarily NEED (as opposed to just "want"), that they get frustrated and feel overwhelmed. Also, when they are faced with the very real prospect of losing a large part of their hard-earned raise (due to say, a promotion or several promotions over many years) to paying a BM CS$$ who sits home and chooses to not work or work infrequently, it becomes overwhelmingly unfair to that parent. How long should an ex be able to "ride the coattails" of his/her successes? Where does the line get drawn?
Sometimes it is sad to see all of these BM's who complain about always "wanting more" and how their baby's daddy "doesn't give them enough" - yet they CHOOSE to keep themselves dependent on this man, they CHOOSE not to get an education which will lead to gainful employment, they CHOOSE not to get a full-time job, even though they are healthy enough to work...it's like they have given up on themselves and simply have no PRIDE. I have no respect for women like this - personally I feel it is counterproductive and doesn't help them in the "big picture" of their lives and their future.
I'm a big believer in ACCOUNTABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY for one's actions in life. I'm not here to advocate that men should be allowed to "walk away" and not help support the children they make. I know that there are unfortunately plenty of men that are "deadbeats" - however I do NOT believe that these "rotten apples" mean that the whole bunch is spoiled.
I simply believe that, IN GENERAL, in a 50/50 joint physical & legal custody situation, there should be NO CS$$ being exchanged. Doesn't matter that your ex makes more than you (and maybe always did before the kid) - that's no reason for you, as a woman, to not be ABLE to support your own child!! Makes no sense that when 1 parent works hard, earns promotions, and in turn, makes more money than the other, that the other lower-income parent should automatically benefit from the other's "success". Oh, and if that were true, then that same parent wouldn't mind the $$ going directly into, say a college fund for the benefit of that CHILD directly & for its future, and NOT PAID to the other parent. No free rides in life, no riding on someone else's coattails.
Maybe if these BM's were faced with the prospect that since the higher-earning parent is MORE CAPABLE of FINANCIALLY supporting this child - better lifestyle, more opportunities, etc... that maybe THEY (other parent) should be the actual CUSTODIAL PARENT of this child, they would be forced to think about their whole "dependent status" position. It seems that these BM's are so busy supporting their OWN lifestyles and NOT using the $$ for the kids, that they don't realize that they will be BROKE when the "gravy train" of CS$$ comes to its final destination...
I would want what is best for my child. I would work 24/7 to support my child if I had to. If my ex was a higher earner, could afford a lifestyle for my child that I couldn't, expose them to better opportunities, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with him being "labeled" the custodial parent, and I would make sure I always had 50/50 physical custody of the child and that I did everything humanly possible to CO-PARENT with my ex so that the kids would get the maximum benefit. I would be most concerned with making sure that we worked together as much as possible to raise responsible, independent, self-sufficient, hard-working, productive members of this society. THAT would be the truest form of SELFLESSNESS for my children.
Sorry for how loooong this post is, and thank you to those who have actually read all the way through.
Stepping off of my "soap box" now.....
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Comments
I do not believe that the
I do not believe that the Federal Guidelines requiere one parent to be named NCP when parents divorce, however in order to "charge/collect cs" an NCP/CP MUST be named. Because states WANT to make money through kickbacks from your ss tax dollars for themselves, they normally name the person with the higher income/potential as NCP as it will ensure a larger cs collection/kickback from the federal government. In very rare circumstances is this not followed, ie proven abuse, wealthy man who can fight through lawyers vs be at the mercy of the courts.
The intent of cs is NOT to keep kids off welfare...the majority of kids who receive cs today would NOT be on welfare if NCP didn't pay, as CP's income would not qualify for welfare. At the same time, most kids on welfare today do not receive cs, but the govt has no incentive to make the NCPs pay because EVEN WITH cs, the income would qualify them for welfare.
At the end of the day the tax payers are actually worse off as more of their tax dollars is spent in the cse collection/kickback that would not have to be paid in welfare because the kids
would not qualify anyway...and you still pay for kids who would be on welfare anyway.
hmmm...herewego, I'll have to
hmmm...herewego, I'll have to look further into that. I've definitely heard about the states getting "kickbacks" or some type of income from the federal government involved in the whole CS collection arena - but I don't KNOW the facts involved in that. I'd definitely be interested in looking further into that. Although this type of moneymaking scheme (kickback) should be illegal, especially under federal law, it doesn't surprise me that New York State is involved in something like this.
Also, I can't help but wonder that if an individual's rights are being infringed upon/curtailed by a STATE law, would that person have recourse under FEDERAL LAW (therefore having FEDERAL LAW "trump" the unfair NYS child support laws/system) - as some type of constitutional rights violation?!? Hmmmm.....
sorry herewego, somehow my
sorry herewego, somehow my reply was just deleted!
I had just said (typed) that although I have definitely HEARD of this type of money-making scheme/kickbacks involving the states & federal govt., involving child support collection & enforcement, that I don't KNOW the facts and exactly how that works. It should definitely be ILLEGAL. I'm certainly not surprised at all that if a "kickback" type of system does exist, that New York State is involved in it.
I'd also have to wonder if an individual can actually SUE their state for this in FEDERAL court - and prevail. The claim could be based upon their state's laws/"kickback" process infringing/violating their federal constitutional rights - a victory of this kind would therefore have the effect of having the federal court decision "trump" the state law of being allowed to continue with these illegal kickbacks.
Not trying to be overtechnical here, but I smell a seriously large rat with how the states seem to actually be INCENTIVIZED by the Federal govt. in child support collection/enforcement.
I imagine this is EXACTLY why it has been so tremendously difficult for men/NCP's to change the laws here in New York State - because if NYS sees that they won't receive a "kickback" on these 50/50 joint & physical custody cases (because no CS $$$ would be exchanged between the parents for them to enforce), then NYS has a "vested interest" in making sure things stay EXACTLY the way they are now...
Let the "legalized embezzlement" continue, in the eyes of New York State govt., so long as the money keeps rolling in from the federal govt.
I bet that Crayon knows a lot of info. about all of this - I believe she has brought this all up on Stalk before.
Crayon, are you out there??
Ok, THAT was weird, my first
Ok, THAT was weird, my first reply "reappeared" after I re-posted my second reply to herewego.
Sorry for the double post, guys/ladies.
I'm not home right now, but
I'm not home right now, but will post later. In the ssa website there is also info stating ss monies being used for cse kickbacks...in addition a couple of yrs back there was an audit done in TX w/fed govt showing that cse in TX hardly collects any ca for TANF cases, the majority are non-TANF.
sorry summerflowers, I'm
sorry summerflowers, I'm having a hard time following your logic/line of thinking here. I think I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
You see, that is EXACTLY the type of attitude that is SO PREVALENT about NCP's (dads especially) - that they are AUTOMATICALLY DEADBEATS - it's just assumed. Kind of like "guilty until proven innocent" type of thinking. That is just plain WRONG, WRONG, WRONG (not to mention, the laws in this country, thank God, are "innocent until PROVEN GUILTY" by a court of law).
Why do you feel that a NCP being court-ordered to pay CS to the other parent (especially in a true 50/50 JOINT PHYSICAL & LEGAL CUSTODY situation) has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with "making the NCP take in the children on their days"??
First of all, as I had stated earlier, it is a PROVEN STATISTICAL FACT that the majority of NCP dads WANT to have their fair custody/time with their own children (hence what a TRUE 50/50 custody situation is)!! Good fathers WANT to be good fathers - they want the SAME LEGAL RIGHTS as the BM's...it's all about FAIRNESS!! The fact is that 50/50 NCP's pay their CS, in full and on-time in the MAJORITY of cases! These type of parents would be more willing to voluntarily contribute towards the financial support of their kids - why the need for it to be COURT ORDERED and required by law??? How is THAT fair - lumping in the "great, wonderful" dads with the "deadbeat" dads in the same category?!? This assumption is WRONG and based upon NO RATIONAL BASIS!!
Secondly, if a NCP is refusing to take the kids on his days (assuming there's a court order in place regarding visitation/parenting time), then YES, I believe THIS would be a MORE LEGITIMATE CLAIM for a BM to make in Court (thereby "clogging" the courts with matters that directly involve the kids and their well-being). If a BM can PROVE that NCP is INTENTIONALLY not "taking the kids on their days", then let the court handle him. Don't let that "rotten apple" spoil it for the rest of the good dads. News flash: There are ACTUALLY GOOD FATHERS OUT THERE that WANT to have their kids with them (without PAS & interference from their ex) because the LOVE THEIR CHILDREN AND WANT TO CO-PARENT AND RAISE AND LOVE AND SUPPORT THEM!!
Third, I agree with you is that the concern is for the kids - which is all the more reason/stronger argument in support of 50/50 joint physical & legal custody with no CS$$ being exchanged!!! It should be about PARENTING TIME/BONDING/LOVE, not about how much a BM/CP can make in income for parenting their own child. Again, this assumes that all things are equal (both parents healthy enough, physically & mentally, to WORK and to parent their children), but if there's a special circumstance, such as a physical handicap, etc... that prevents 1 parent from being CAPABLE of financially supporting their child, that would be handled differently.
Sorry summerflowers, I don't mean to be rude and I hope my post is not coming across that way or "holier than thou", I just strongly believe that there IS a lot of unfairness (especially towards the "breadwinning" NCP's in New York, not necessarily just the MEN) in the whole CS $$ situation in New York State (as well as any other state that follows this existing crazy CS formula calculation).
My apologies if I have offended you - I'm trying to be open-minded (may not sound like it, huh?) and see it from different perspectives. I appreciate your reply to my post either way.
And I get sick of the women
And I get sick of the women who cry and whine about having to take care of their own kids and wanting to get paid to raise their own kids. It is definitely better to give the money to the CP and leave the NCP w/out enough money to see their kids or put them in hiding so they don't have to live in a box than to take a risk in the father actually having an influence on the kids and the CP not being able to get her hair and nails done...no doubt.
PS they already clog up the
PS they already clog up the system when they don't have enough to get their hair done, instead they'd clog it up to actually enforce visitation which truly does benefit the kids...problem is, most don't want the NCP involved...they want to divorce the man and have him out of their lives completely...only that when the NCP does the same they say "he divorced me AND the kids"...
if you have a kid, you should
if you have a kid, you should be prepared to care for it solo if necessary...... yes, each parent should be financially and emotionally responsible for their half of the kid, but life's not perfect. and i don't think we're upset over cs, we're upset over the bms who abuse it and milk the system for a free f#cking ride and try to squeeze every last penny out of the contributing sperm donor (many who tricked or lied to about birth control) because they spread their legs one or more times too many...
i think using kids for a paycheck should be a federal offense.
Starfish, thank you! I agree
Starfish, thank you! I agree with you (and how you put it). Simply stated, I (we) have NO PROBLEM with the concept of child support - but BOTH PARENTS ARE CHARGEABLE WITH THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT of their child, not just the "breadwinner" parent - that's the BASIC premise of the child support laws and why they were created to BEGIN with!!
I also agree with you when you say "i think using kids for a paycheck should be a federal offense" - EXACTLY!!!
STANDING UP CLAPPING!!!!!!!
This is why I refer to these ridiculous CS laws (especially involving 50/50 joint custody in New York State) as "legalized embezzlement", because in ALL OTHER SITUATIONS, EMBEZZLEMENT of any kind is ILLEGAL in the U.S.A.!!!
you are very welcome!! and
you are very welcome!! and thank you for sharing my feelings!
CS$$ and 50/50
CS$$ and 50/50 custody...Anyone else out there that has an opinion on this "hot topic"??? I'm surprised that no one else is weighing in on the subject matter of this post. I really would love to hear from more of you (in favor of and against) on this - I respect all of your opinions.
I'm seriously contemplating contacting some of the legislators/representatives on the local level here to find out how to start the process of doing what is necessary to support having the CS laws here in NYS changed when 50/50 custody is involved - we need more FAIRNESS!!!
Also, if something changes in 1 state, hopefully that will result in the "tides of change" in other states. Does anyone else out there live in a state where, in a 50/50 custody situation, there is no CS $$ exchanged between the parents? I'd love to find out which states already have this type of system in place and how it got to be that way. Please, chime in!!!
Never done this before, but I do feel VERY, VERY strongly about this issue.
Anyone??
I'm not in the states but I
I'm not in the states but I know of cases in Europe where there is 50/50 and no CS is paid.
That is, of course, as it should be.
Never done this before, but I do feel VERY, VERY strongly about this issue.
Good for you! There is nothing so exhilarating as having a cause and fighting for it.
Hello everyone I have read
Hello everyone I have read all these posts and agree completely! The laws in ny are very unfair and NEED to be changed!!!!!!!I am currently trying to do this and would appreciate any support or advice that u can offer we are starting an orginization called equal opportunity for parenting! (E.O.P) where we will be collecting petitions and testamonials and sumbitiong them to our law makers as well as fighting a support battle of our own to the highest court if needed