Semi-off topic "grandparenting"
So, my husband and I had a little debate the other day about grandparents and what their role should be with their grandkids.
At one end of the "what is normal spectrum" is my husband's opinion that the more normal situation involves very involved grandparents spending a lot of time with grandkids.. babysitting etc...
At the other end of the spectrum is my POV.. ie... dont' have kids if you don't want to raise them.. don't expect your parents to raise your kids for you.. spend all their free time babysitting etc.. Because.. in this day and age.. most people of grandparent age.. are still working.. and most often in two income households.. and spending your very precious free time watching your kid's kids.. may not be something you are easily able to do..
This came about as my SO played GP for the day with his two grandsons (7 and 4).. they are not the best behaved kids... and I work from home.. so I asked that he not bring them here while I'm working.. He knows I'm not a huge kid person. I have flat out told him I did my "time" helping him raise his two daughters.. I'm not a grandparent.. and won't be taking on that role. He is welcome to go spend time with them.. So he went and got them for breakfast then took them for most of the day.. shopping for relics.. playing at our boat landing etc.. (disney grandpa).
I have a few basic issues with their behavior that I think kids should be taught.. but my SO thinks are a bit too old fashioned.
1. Don't touch things that are not yours. It burns me up when they come see us and grab things. I had a can of pringles with me one day.. unopened.. and the younger one just ran up and grabbed it.. and tried to open it. I was like 'NO SGS.. you need to ask before you take".. and I get looks like I kicked a puppy for taking the can back.. haha..
2. The way they don't watch their kids.. and the older boy is a real pain to the younger one.. so it's always screaming and tears.. which are tbh.. very annoying to me.. (an introvert).
I guess it's also my introvertedness that makes me inwardly cringe to have to deal with two more people that aren't good at staying in their own space.
So.. back to the basic question... how involved are grandparents expected to be.. what IS normal? again.. maybe my experience as an army brat that moved alll the time made me see the normal as not having active grandparents close by and involved.. because it wasn't logistically possible?
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When I was a child, one set
When I was a child, one set of grandparents were totally hands-off. They never visited us and when we stayed with them we were pretty much ignored. The others were different. GP was sick so contact with him was limited. GM was very present, loved teaching us about nature, enjoyed our company, encouraged us to read, etc. but never actually babysat us. She never needed to make much of an effort - she had 7 children and could herd kittens, the chances of us presenting a challenge to her was slim to none.
When my brother and his wife (a SAHM) had their first baby, they told Mum that she would be taking care of her every Saturday... and they said it like it was a privilege. Gawd, I'm surprised she let them live. She was in her early 50s and worked full-time. She let them know that she would only babysit for special occasions or emergencies and, even then, only if she wanted to.
So, I'm on your side - your children are your responsibility and if your parents offer to look after them for you, be grateful.
I think you hit the nail on
I think you hit the nail on the head, that everyone's perspective of normal sort of depends on their experiences with their own grandparents.
My paternal grandparents were very involved. By the time I was born, my maternal grandmother had passed and my grandfather had remarried. I have a lot of affection for my mom's dad and stepmom, but they were not exceptionally involved. We would visit on Sundays for a couple of hours since they only lived 10 minutes away, but I actually don't think I ever even spent the night with them. On the flip side, my paternal grandparents lived 4 hours away and I spent a great deal of time with them. It wasn't uncommon for my parents to drop me off there for 2-3 weeks at a time during school breaks, and they would often come to our home and stay for a week or more. They attended a lot of my school and extracurricular events, and were just generally 'around' a lot.
I should note that my paternal grandparents spent just as much time with my siblings and cousons, but I was the oldest grandchild and the consensus is (with no bitterness) that I was the one they were closest to. They just seemed to really delight in being grandparents. I could go on at length about the beautiful relationship that we all had. To say they had a profound impact on my life would be an understatement, and I miss them every single day. My cousins and I are all very close as a result of the multiple weeks we would all spend together at my grandparents house every summer and holiday. It was such a gift.
My parents have definitely modeled themselves as grandparents after my dad's parents. They are ridiculously smitten with my DD and my niece and nephew. Every chance they get, they'll take all the kids for several days, or they come to my house or my sister's and stay for a few. They never miss a game or a performance if they can help it. It enriches DD's life so much to have them so involved. To me, this is very normal because I grew up with it. XH definitely finds it a little, but both of his parents were estranged from their parents by the time he was 4 or 5. So he never had any contact with his grandparents. He does acknowledge that it's good for DD, he's just always surprised how much time they want to spend with her. It will be interesting to see what kind of grandparent he is when the time comes.
I never had involved
I never had involved grandparents, so I never understood the appeal of wanting to hang out with them. My parents sort of did the grandparent thing when the kids were younger, but they had trouble with accepting they weren’t the parent and that they weren’t raising these kids. To this day I’m still considered an inept parent because I didn’t raise my kids the way my mother wanted. My DH’s parents aren’t involved at all and always expected us to travel to them because it was “easier” for them. I would love to be a grandparent at some point but neither of my children have any interest in having kids, so I will just live vicariously through my friend who has four grandkids and she dotes on them and spoils them and shares them with me.
If your husband wants to take
If your husband wants to take the kids and go play grandpa, let him... outside of your house. From what you describe it would be good for them to get out and burn off some energy. He can also babysit over at their house sometimes too to give you a break.
You don't have to do anything you don't want to IMO.
If/when LI has a kid, I plan to be 100% uninvolved. No babysitting from me, no changing diapers, outings, or anything. If DH wants to he can have at it (but realistically he's too lazy to want to put up with that either). Nope, I'm not being roped into raising someone else's kids, not even for a day.
Differing situations
Like Felicity, I benefitted from a set of GPs who, tho distant, were very involved. Like her, I spent weeks at a time with them and miss them.
I thought I'd be like my GPs but I'm not. For one thing, I was still working FT when my bio GKs were small. For another, my daughter lived out of town and it's just hard when you only have 2 long weekends annually to visit. They came home once annually, too, but its still hard to form a close bond without the time together. My son, wife and daughter lived near but I found that her mother got preference. After saying all this, my bio GKs, now in their 30s,, especially the 2 girls, feel close and are kind, generous, thoughtful people. When I had my 2nd covid bout last month, GD#1 had a hearty lunch delivered plus a bubble bath delivery. On Easter, she brought Easter eggs, cake, fruit, veggies and wine. The other 2 live out of town.
I was open to doing the same for the step GKs but the SKs varied on how much involvement they wanted me to have. SD took all she could get while making sure everyone knew BM was #1 but that was ok. YSS seemed to want to limit my involvement but that was ok, too.
We never really babysat overnight, DH wasn't interested after the hellish days raising our 5 and I was too zonked from working, the house and my high-maintenance DH. We have a good enough relationship with all 9 GKs
DH has 4 GGKs. I've purposely kept a distance from the 2 oldest cuz between SD62 and her daughter, it feels like at any time, they could dump the kids on someone else (like BM did) and it wont be me this time i'm polite and civil and remember bdays, etc but that's all. The younger 2 GGKs live more distantly but I'm on good terms with their mom and see them occasionally.
It all seems to depend on individual relationships and distance.
My grandparents were
My grandparents were opposites - my dad's mother was completely involved with us, a lot of fun, and we adored her and vice-versa. I still remember her vividly even though she passed when I was around 10.
My mother's parents were not as involved. We saw them on the major holidays, one week during the summer and then if they were visiting us passing through on their own travels. They were very strict. While we liked seeing them we always had to be on best behavior.
My own parents are a wierd mix of the two with my niece, now 20 yo. They did not babysit, only saw her on holidays regularly, but did see her when they visited my sister (they live about 30 + min away from her). While they did fun things, they didn't really do them ALONE with her and didn't develop much of a relationship with her. And they wonder why now, she doesn't come to them on her own....My sister's explained it clearly to them but they still don't get it (and BTW they don't get why my sister and I aren't closer to them either - well, because your relationship building was crap and still is).
I think it really depends on the wants of the grandparents
When I was born, my parents were 21 years old and were still finishing college and both went on to get their master's as well. Rather than being in daycare a lot of the time especially when I was really little (until pre-K) my paternal set of great grandparents and my maternal set of grandparents took turns watching me at their homes. HOWEVER, this was the wish of both sets of grandparents and I had rules and expectations at their homes. Actually for a really long time I didn't enjoy spending so much time with my maternal grandparents because they would make me help out and it wasn't all fun and games, I saw them as strict. While time spent with my paternal grandparents (not the great grandparents that also helped out) was always fun because they lived states away and I saw them maybe twice a year.
As an adult now, I MUCH MORE appreciate my maternal grandparents and am lucky they are still around for me to show my appreciation. They were SO involved in my life, going to my sporting events, going to school events especially when my parents couldn't, teaching me life lessons, I could always count on them to be there for me. Again, they weren't all fun and games, when I was in trouble at home sometimes you could tell my grandparents were also disappointed in me. Both my husband and I look forward to seeing, talking to, and just being involved with my maternal grandparents. My paternal grandparents have been much more hands off my whole life. They talk a big game about wanting to be involved, etc. but they really aren't it is just a facade. They haven't ever done anything wrong, but I don't feel any bit of closeness to them. We do however share any big news with them just as we do the other set of grandparents, but usually it is a short phone call and that is that. Where as when we call my maternal grandparents it is always at least a 45 minute conversation whether there is news to share or not.
All this lengthy explanation is to say that I think it should be up to the grandparents how involved they want to be and something that the parents should discuss ahead with them. I don't think it is right for a parent to expect the grandparent to take on more of a parental role than a parent should ever. But if the grandparents want to babysit and be more involved, then that should be up to them. Again, not forced upon them however, you shouldn't have kids if you can't and do not want to be the full time caregiver to them. I think it is all about establishing boundaires ahead of time, not just the grandparents, but the parents as well because sometimes it is hard for them to realize they are not the parent to their grandchild.
As long as you're not harming
As long as you're not harming the kids I'm not sure there is a right/wrong way to do it. It just depends on your personality. I do think the kids who expect their parents to be regular free baby sitters are taking their parents for granted. Some people do just like spending time with kids though. I think I'm going to do occasional fun outings with any grandkids in my future, not regular childcare, I'm not a huge kid person.
I can agree that in a lot of
I can agree that in a lot of cases.. a positive relationship with grandparents (if they are sane.. not toxic).. is good for kids. I mean.. kids don't generally do worse when there are MORE people that care about them and their lives.. and outcomes.
But.. the way my husband was trying to frame it was that "ALL grandparents WANT to be involved.. and that my perspective was weird".
It really does get complicated when there are distances involved.. when there is step life too.. that's another monkey wrench.
I mean.. I can't be the only stepmother that feels like we did our time to raise the stepkids.. and aren't up for raising their children.. haha...especially for us childless ones.. that don't love to be around kids period... and my own mom was like that.
I mean my mom was not the most overly maternal person in the world.. they would ask smoking or non smoking in the restaurant.. she wanted the "no children zone".. and she told me not to have kids.. that they were "terrible".. haha.. so not sure if my brother and I were horrid or whether she was just not a typical housewife type.. and when she raised us.. she had had "enough".
I think my OSD resents that my SO is not more involved with the grands.. but honestly.. we are very busy.. have a lot going on.. and don't have days upon days to just hang out with her kids. We see them a few times a year.. send the requisite gifts.. but aside from that.. not too much else. My SO will take them for a few hours maybe once a month or so.. and her inlaws live across the street.. so they tend to have more time.. since they both work around the house.. we just don't.
The variables grow more
The variables grow more infinite the higher up the family tree that we go.
My parents were 17 & 19 when they married. They were 19 & 21 when I was born. In the case of my maternal GPs, they lived on opposite US coasts. In the case of my paternal GPs, they lived on the other side of the planet from where we were. After university my parents made their lives as expats. We moved overseas when I was 4yo. My two younger brothers were born overseas. We were in the same country as my dad' sparents and I recall seeing them a couple of times before they retired and returned to the US.
When I was young, I was far closer to my maternal GPs. We would visit them for extended periods during summer Repat leave. They were the immersion, affectionate, active GPs. Lots of food, lots of goofing off, etc.... Though there were limits. There were a few occassions where either my GF or GM would have us cut a switch and they would use it on us. Us being my brother and I and our three cousins (all boys).
My paternal GPs were far less small kid oriented. At that stage, I thought that they were mean. They weren't, they just were less tolerant of kid antics and not overly young kid centric. My dad is an only child. Mom is the eldest of two girls but her family, both sides, all are from a small town and just about everyone stayed not far from there making their lives over the generations.
When I got to my mid teens, my perspective switched. My maternal GF was very ill, my maternal GM showed her less than pleasant core. Mom's dad passed from alzheimers related complications when I was about 19, he was 69. As his illness progressed things with my maternal GPs and my mom's extended family became far less pleasant. My GM showed her colors as being extremely manipulative, I did not care for how she behaved towards my mom, that extended family showed as far more nasty, mean, and unpleasant as I matured. Than I remembered from my younger kid experiences with them.
My paternal GPs became much more interesting, intersted, and involved as we were old enough to engage on a more cerebral and active level in their lives as they liked them. Granddad was one of my favorite people. He was no bullshit, smart, funny, and engaging. There was never a dull moment with him on the planet. Even when we lived far apart, I would call him at least once a week. He was the type to give you call to check in, decide to head your way after the call was over, and show up at your door across 6 states, 2000 miles, and two days later with nothing but his toothbrush and a small bag that he always kept in his vehicle for just this type of wild hair up his ass adventure. My paternal GM was always very stoic, statuesque, poised, and reserved. Until... she wasn't. After granddad passed we moved her to our neck of the woods. My parents, me, my brother, and our families were all living near each other at that time. We selected an age in place memory care retirement home for her. It was basically a cruise ship in a park. She was the bell of the ball for the last 5 or so years of her life as she progressed through progressive dementia. She regularly won dance contests, card tournents, miss congeniality in pageants, sang in tallent shows, etc....
My mom is the ultimate gramma. Dad as he likes to say "hate(s) kids". Which is complete bullshit. Kids love him and torment him to no end. He and their GKs give each other shit constantly. He does the same with the neighborhood kids who knock on their door regularly to see what Mrs. R is baking or crafting, and to see what Mr. R is up to. They knock on the door, dad answers with an "I hate kids!", they laugh back "No you don't" then scoot in the door, raid the candy dish, make cookies with mom, then get rounded up by their parents and taken home. Lather, rinse, repeat. Several times per week.
My brother and my SIL were the dump the kids on the GPs people. DW and I never once asked them to watch our son. As soon as my brother's kids were at mom and dad's, mom would call us asking us to bring the Skid over. We often would drop SS off for the GP fest with his cousins. They all had a great time. For the most part. When SS was first back from SpermLand visitation he could be a PITA and he did not spare my parents from that crap. They did not tolerate it so SS pretty much kept his post visitation detox away from my parents.
He is the eldest of their 4GKs. He is 18mos older than my niece. All 4 of them (SS-31, Niece-30, Nephew-28, Nephew-22) say my mom and dad's home when you ask them where they consider home to be. DW, SS and I moved to the Mid Atlantic when SS started 8th grade. A year later my brother and his family moved overseas. Summers were at my parents for all of us to some level. Particularly the GKs. They took the kids on RV trips, visited us in PA/DE regularly, visited my brother in Asia regularly. So the GPs watching the Skids dynamic shifted significantly.
I knew both of my maternal GGMs. Not well. Granddaddy's mom I have memory of but nothing in depth. Grandmother's mother died when I was 9yo. I was her eldest GGK. She left me the family farm in her Will. But... one of her son's contested and got the farm after she passed as she had lived with that Great Uncle for most of the last 20 years of her life. She was nearly 100 when she passed.
I never met any of my dad's extended family. He never spent much time with them as a kid himself.
My niece will have my parents' first GGK in May. That should be interesting. Mom will be all over it, dad will be stoicly and quietly present. Though very caring. This will be only the second girl in a long line of boys. Dad's parents had a boy, mom and dad had 3. This baby girl will be spoi......led.
I am definately team raise your own damned kids. How, and how much GPs are involved should be entirely at their discretion.
IMHO of course.
We lived far from my
We lived far from my grandparents, so only saw them occasionally. But, some of my cousins lived locally to them and my grandparents did not provide routine child care. My mom was not all about being the deaignated daycare provider, either to my kids or my sister's. She kept my dad in check while she was alive. My kids are pretty much grown but i had daycare for when i worked and i could handle my own kids, so grandparenting was more for fun things. My dad pretty much has my sister's kids whenever they are not in school. My mom would be rolling over in her grave if she had one. My dad does still hang out with my kids and do things with them, but it's not because there's nobody to "watch" them.
ETA as far as what kind of grandparent i plan to be, if i wver become one...idk. I don't think i will be a daycare provider but i do see myself being involved. It's like with kids, though. When they are your own, you want to ne around them more than when they are not. It's not just a matter of enjoying vs not enjoying their company. If the other parent or grandparent who isn't your spouse is around a lot, you just can't really treat them like your own. Too many eyes watching and criticizing.
This is interesting
Because DH and I were watching a show the other day on ID channel. Man was murdered and his kids were interviewed and found it so strange that their SM would get angry when their dad spent hours and hours with his grandkids. DH called bull on it and said that wasn't right and she shouldn't have been angry. I was of the mind that of course she would be upset if he spent ALL of his time, like it seems his kids were suggesting, with the grandkids.
During this discussion, I did admit to DH I would be pissed if he chose to spend our adult time with his grandkid. I don't mind if he wants to go for a few hours every week or so, but not all weekend every weekend.
Like you Esmod, I am still working. I have a lot of on my plate. I work 3 different jobs, have a 9 year old I try to be present for while she's home, and I'm also not a kid person. I love DD9, but every weekend, I send her with my mom. My mom helps me with her, but she only likes helping the weekend, she likes to have the week to herself. So I got lucky in that way. And I can't wait for my biograndkids, but....I didn't have the best time parenting my stepkids so I don't care to babysit sgrandbaby. The kind of people they ended up becoming are not people I find likeable. I've been able to correct and parent my daughter as I see fit, and I enjoy her overall. She tells me daily how beautiful/smart/the best mom I am, and I just can't wait to be there for her in every way I can. There aren't those conflicts of having a loyalty issue to anyone else, so her children will be the only other ones I will look forward to and make myself available for, and yes I don't mind taking them on if need be.
Now that SS24 has sgrandson (6 months old), I don't know what his expectations were, but so far it was coincidental that SS19 decided to go live with him, so he gets used as the babysitter. SS24 has never asked us to babysit, which is just as well, because if I'll be honest, I just don't want to. I've never been a baby person and I enjoy the little free adult time I have.
Had we all had a better relationship, things could have been different. But like I mentioned on an earlier post, I think SS24 deliberately keeps his distance, because he would always lie on us, and I highly suspect he manipulated his BM into thinking we kicked him out (I believe he manipulated her and told her that so she could allow him to live with her). I don't think he wants her to find out the truth; that he just couldn't save money, didn't respect house rules, and after 1 month of us asking him to contribute to a forced saving so he could move out, he chose to ask for his money and leave.
I honeslty don't care to be close to them anymore, not with who they are as people today. If they changed? Different story, but for now, all I foresee is a sgrandbaby who will turn out PAS like the boys were. I want no parts of that. I already went through stepparenting hell, I won't do it with stepgrandkids. I have zero interest in it.
In your case, I could get how being around kids who don't know about personal space or not to touch things that don't belong to them. It just sounds a lot like being a stepparent all over again. I feel the same way; if you don't want kids, don't have them and then expect other people to raise them for you.
Also, i'm wondering if there
Also, i'm wondering if there is a correlation between adult kids pushing for the grandparents to "take the kids" more and the behavior of said kids. It seems like if the kids were well behaved, their parents wouldn't be needing so many breaks from them. I don't remember ever feeling like i just needed someone to take my kids for a while. I did try to get my mom to be my free daycare at first but she shut that down quick. I think it ended up being for the best, since my kids learned to get along in multiple places and my ex and i did exchanges there. Drama with my mom was minimized since she wasn't babysitting every day and drama with my ex was minimized. And at least i got some of the daycare bill back on taxes.
I think so.
I think so.
Most grandparents aren't doing that "gentle" (grand) parenting like this generation of Disney Parents .... at least mine didn't. My grandmother totally believed in corporal punishment.
I had more freedom and treats at her house but the moment I broke her house rules ... it was game over.
If grands have multiple grandkids at once and they are wise (as most elderly people are) they will not allow a gang of kids to run over them in their own house. They're too old to be expending hella energy on unruly kids like the Disney parents.
Kids also know (at least the wise ones) that they can probably get away with abusing their passive parents but abusing their elderly grandparents is a very low level to stoop down to.
I didn't have involved
I didn't have involved grandparents. My mom's family lived 800 miles away and my dad's parents, while within an hour's drive, had little to do with us other than on holidays, when we were expected to visit them. My parents, otoh, are very involved with DD. They will babysit any time they're asked (a couple times a month), they visit her at least once a week, and they give her a lot of attention when they're with her. She adores them. DH's mother is about 600 miles away, so she has a FaceTime relationship with DD and sees her maybe once a year. I think grandparent involvement depends on distance, age and health of grandparents, relationship of grandparents with the grandchild's parents, how much free time grandparents have and how much they like spending time with kids. I'm not sure whether there is a "normal."
We help out as much as we could
Because we liked it. It was fun, we could afford to take them to chucked cheese. And places like that, we worked so it was mainly on weekends. They also would not grab a can of pringles, But DW would then have pringles in the house for them
BUT we enjoyed it. It was fun for us. Think it relived some guilt because we could not afford to do things like that with our kids. Chuckey Cheese type of places were not in the budget
I don't think there is a
I don't think there is a "normal"
Do the level of involvement that suits you (and explain this on the front end after any "we're/l'm pregnant" announcememt)
My mom was HEAVILY involved (maybe because she felt bad I was a single mom or she tried to be a better grandparent than parent) and as soon as she got off work every week, she'd rush and pickup my child even when I told her there was no rush.
I tried to pay her but she declined.
Well she moved out of town and I was perturbed at first because now I had to do everything on my own but thankfully my kid had a car and it wasn't as bad as I thought plus I realized she really didn't owe me any free childcare assistance at all.
Now if I had multiple kids I doubt she'd be doing as much as she did.
I honestly have no desire to be as involved as a grandparent as my mom. The last thing I want to do after I get off work is take care of some kids (so I am SUPER glad my bio is self sufficient). And if I do take on grandparent duties, it damn sure won't be a regular thing. I'm kind of hoping I don't become a grandparent actually.
I will most likely not ever live with a man again so I won't have to get into multiple arguments if my prospective partner decides to take on an active grandparent role.
Idk I might change my mind but for now being a grandparent (especially a very active one) is a NO for me.
I like my peace, I want to travel, and I'm not expending oodles of resources on kids/grandkids I have no rights to.
Working grandparents
I'm not even talking about step GKs here, but my 3 bio gkide. When they were young, I was still working a demanding FT job, finishing night school, trying to keep the house going on the weekends and dealing with a hyperactive DH who was employed FT, too. So, even if DD and her 2 had lived nearby and even if DIL didn't prefer to have her mom babysit, I was just too busy and tired to do the fantasy GP thing of constant babysitting, game attendance, etc.
We tried to do what we could for both my bio and step GKs: occasional game attendance, a summer outing every year for everyone in town, any time we were specifically invited, like GP Day at school, my twice-annually visits to DDs house, annual visits to YSS's house, annual Christmas cookie baking for whoever was age-appropriate.
I occasionally had guilt twinges when comparing myself to my own GM but, hey, she didn't work, wasn't going to night school, didn't have a hyperactive DH and only had one GC, not 9 and no steps. Lol.