Any ideas about managing an intrusion by adult YSD whom I am really fond of?
As you may know, I have a noxious OSD26 -- happily mutually disengaged, a lovely YSD25, and a feckless SS23. They never lived with us but came on visitation during childhood. We were in very cramped housing then and it was hard for all. Then in 2011 we moved to a big house and each adult skid has made separate attempts to move in since. IN 2011 the noxious OSD26 came back into orbit with a bid to jobhunt in our city based at the house, complete with pretence of being nice to me and our 2 BSs. DH kept trying to bounce her in and was emotionally dishonest. This brought me to steptalk. Eventually with ST assistance I saw her off. Then early this year I returned to steptalk with SS23 trying to move in having flunked his exams for the second time running. That was complicated as he had got himself into a depression and he also had the big blackmail over DH's head that if DH put a step wrong he could be blamed for a third failed exam. I managed that by ensuring the pair of them moved out temporarily to a friend's apartment where DH could fully baby and pamper SS, then I arranged a private rental locally and DH helped him to find bar work. That process started in April and ended just now with SS relationship with rental breaking down and the work sacking him. He then, thankfully, moved back to the city where he is studying and is claiming to have got his head down to his studies back for his third attempt next summer. Has a job, has housing, should be ok (though we all know he will fail and there will be a mess then, but I can handle that as it arises).
Back to lovely YSD25. She has had a series of nothing jobs, trying to establish herself as an illustrator -- it's not an easy career to get into. She's lived in various cruddy places in another city. She's then earlier this year taken a break from work and gone on her travels. Now she's back to her casual work here and there and looking for somewhere to work from. Oh yes, what do you know, our place cropped up in hers and DH mind. They have virtually sewn up the idea that she will move in "for a few months" whilst she "tries to get work here and there" until an unspecified date when she will move into a shared friends in a house when a room becomes free there, in another city where she can continue her illustration plans.
Now unlike the others, I am sure that YSD is genuine in her plans but the problem for me is that she is always vague about them such that there is never any fixed date for beginning or ending projects. She just goes with the flow. This does not bother DH who would give anything to return to the easy flow of family life as he perceives it, with people just casually dropping to and fro around a house and nothing being planned, organized or arranged. Yes I do favor organization way further than he does, but one of our BSs is Aspergers and you have to have quite a rigid lifestyle in order to manage the condition. He cannot do improvization and would become stressed/distracted by people just hanging around him and letting life happen to them. But even without him, I myself just don't want my home to again become a doss house where student types breeze in and out pitching towels and cups everywhere, running baths that overflow, leaving food around, etc etc. I am not a student and no longer enjoy that lifestyle. DH on the other hand loves nothing more than to stay up late chatting loudly and drinking with his adult kids, to return to that idyll that he lost when they were little of being a daddy with kids all hanging around him. In the process the needs of our BSs become a hazy irrelevant dream to him and I a single parent.
Anyway when DH suggested this happen to me yet again I was aghast and obviously against the idea, not least because if YSD moves in at this juncture then, if she leaves say after Christmas, that will be just about the time of year that SS will begin to collapse into his study stress failure mode and will move into a depression, with debts, panic attacks and everything else that goes with that. DH will then do his rescue operation with SS at his most vulnerable and the whole paternal family will pressure me to take him in temporarily. Only this time, how temporary will it be since they will not allow him a fourth retake. I cannot bear this to happen.
I've explained to DH that it's really unwise to have SD to be basing her home here for her own sake (and we all know the arguments) but also because of the disruption to our bios and the potential (obvious to him, surely!) of the harmonious relationship of YSD and me becoming fragile to say the least. How can he risk that so lightly given his prized desire that we all be one happy family? OK don't answer that. I've said that if she is really desperate at the moment then she can stay as a house guest, no key, no friends calling by, no cooking and messing up the kitchen, and -- as she will be working -- $50 per week toward food and utilities. DH was shocked at the last and said that he and she had thought she could stay free of charge in exchange for babysitting and helping with her half brothers. WTF!!!!!! Of course we do desperately need help with them as we work back to back, but for her to effectively charge for this! So I'm adding in occasional looking after them and housework as part of her contribution next time we discuss this, but not backing down on the $ aspect.
I would be very grateful for any thoughts from others on this, how to handle this given I am really really fond of this girl but know the scheme will fail for many many reasons and is silly.
I want to think of a constructive way to do this so that the least emotional damage is done to our bond. I'm hoping that the stipuations that I have made, whilst perfectly reasonable, will when she hears them be sufficiently repellent to her to make it worth her staying elsewhere in our city for now. I know she has that option, it's just obviously more expensive than staying here.
My first thought is is tell
My first thought is is tell your DH how damaging it would be to the siblings relationships if this girl is allowed in while the other two were not. The others will call her "daddy's favorite" and "SM's suckup" and so forth. That resentment could last their whole lives, even after you both are dead and the 2 claim she already got her inheritance and the bickering over the estate finalizes an estrangement amongst the siblings.
You can also tell this directly to SD. "It wouldn't be fair, we already turned down your bro and sis." You can even pour the sugar on, "you know I'd love to as you're such a sweet girl, but sibs would make life hell for all of us, especially you and none of us needs that right?"
If I think of anything else, I'll come back. **smiley face**
Thanks for all these ideas
Thanks for all these ideas ladies. Thing is OSD is not "officially" banned as such, more that I have told DH she only comes to visit here if certain things have happened like that I see the last 6 months' emails and texts from her to him and these contain no slurs on me or our kids. Obviously either she continues to bitch or he does not want in principle to lay their relationship out on a sacrificial table to me, so either way she does not visit. No doubt DH and she have another version of the deal, and I don't want to get into analyzing all this with YSD. And as for SS, he is allowed to visit anytime and even overnight, and his not living here has become something he actively wants after I tore a few strips off him last time he did it and just before I got him the rentals in April. So it is less black and white than that.
I think the time has come to really discuss this in depth with DH. I've had a go at it just now but we're too distracted by kids going in and out, workmen etc (oh yes I forgot to say, home improvements are going on, each time the place gets to look a little more classy there is a bid by one of the skids to move in, what a coincidence).
I tried to get the discussion up to what were the issues in our marriage and parenthood for us to deal with rather than simply do what she wanted because she asked it. He kept cutting to, "So you're saying no then", ie trying to turn it back on me being the baddie. I managed to block that and his next step was, as I laid out that she has a different lifestyle, can't he see that that will begin to irritate me, etc, that he would have an answer as to how this would all be different eg that she was working now, her behavior would be different, the dynamic would be different etc. He did have the grace to immediately admit that during her short stay with us recently he had indeed neglected our own kids. That I find really a great basis for then going on to have a proper discussion. But I was unnerved by the following thing he said. I pointed out that there were only 2 times really that, over the skid issues, he had stepped up to his responsibility as a family man and husband to my satisfaction, one was about a year ago when he replied to an abusive email of BM that she should never verbally abuse me again in an email about their children or he would not even answer it; and the other was when last January or so he had my back when I confronted SS about his private browsing on our computer and banned him from any computer use in our house. He said, "So there you are. Have you had any trouble from BM or SS since those two occasions? I was effective, wasn't I?" My chin hit the floor. The fact that he is unaware of the sacrifice and trouble I went through finding his son a home in April, taking full care of our own children as a single parent for 3 weeks, holding it together for our elder BS at the most serious point in his academic career to date, a crucial period which SS had threatened to railroad... It just beggars belief how babyish this approach is. I guess he would say that I could have had it easier just letting SS move in.
Anyway we've agreed to go on to discuss this more fully when we both have some alone time together and I am very happy about that as I may make some headway.
Any ideas on how to present this to someone so childish as DH, who is still at the level of saying "my daughter would not consume $50 worth of food/utilities in a week" rather than looking at the bigger picture of how he manages his household. Yes, I have the power within our marriage to simply lay down the line and say no to YSD, this would not be a problem, but then I would face the issue of knowing that DH did not understand and would demonize me further in his heart. I have to find some way of getting through to him and communicating that there is a higher level of thought about parenthood and marriage here that he is just not tapping into. The guy has a high enough intellect, but oh such a simple and childish soul.
That is a brilliant analogy
That is a brilliant analogy Jameritt.
When DH and I sit down to discuss this I will highlight the dependency issue which is at the bottom of it all. He will no doubt deny it is there and just say this is convenience for YSD and companionability for him. But I think the difficulty for him is his whole family culture would be to view themselves as generous in saying yes. They come from a culture where hospitality and family are all. Which I understand. But family and hospitality mean different when they put another part of the family effectively into a servant position.
He has got to find a way of standing tall in front of his children and his parents and also say no. I don't think he can with them and I don't care about their opinion which will ensue from this, ie that yet again I am the bad fairy. But I don't want my marriage to return to being full of resentment and nasty subtle sniping by DH because he is not getting his way. So I am hoping maybe at least, after a lot of talking around it, he can understand my rationale.
Joke is he would completely get it if anyone tried to move into the same house as his ailing old parents and walk over their space and lives constantly like that. But of course he sees me as a limb of himself, hale, hearty and able to pull back my skirts and and make space in our nest. I might make the comparison to would he do this to MIL in order to see the look on his face.
I will keep you posted. Thanks so much all for your wisdom.
Hi Poodle, this is a tough
Hi Poodle,
this is a tough one. I don't know if there is any way to handle this without assuming the mantle and the broom of the wicked witch. I have a few vague thoughts on the subject, in randon order:
a. You could make it all about your YSD's next stage of development. She is really at an age where she needs to spread her wings and fly! Attain mastery of independent living. I lived at home with my mother until i was 25, and boy, was i ready to launch! Why she would want to come back, other than for economic reasons, is beyond me. Can you get her some career counseling? I hear there is a fabulous chidren's books illusrators' course being offered in Milan this fall... you know. She needs to find ways to make a living and if her preferred activity is not well-rewarded... well, that's what day jobs are for. Can she go to graduate school to learn another skill? Crawling back into the nest seems like going backwards even if her dad is welcoming her with open arms. I like the same lifestyle your DH does, but on the weekends... or holidays... not all the time when both husband and wife work.
b. a very good GF of mine has just pushed her only son out of the nest and into a top-tier business school - which sounds like cause to celebrate - esp. because the blessed child is 35! And has never lived anywhere but with mommy. This is my nightmare scenario... she has been enabling a lifestyle he could never afford on his own, and essentially she was doing it for deeply selfish reasons: she is single, and having someone to take care of, or fight with, served a need. For the last 17 years there was really no excuse for him not being on his own. What do women who meet him think? "Oh what a catch! His mom will bring us breakfast in bed".
c. on my own front, even though my kids are younger, i am contemplating sending my 17-soon-to-be-18yo to live with his dad and SM next year when he is in college. They live next to a pretty good state school in another state, and my son could commute and save a lot of money. College tuition is not as big of a headache in Europe, but it is a huge pain in the US: 21yos graduate with a mountain of debts and few job prospects, and en masse move in with their parents. So in an efffort to save my son some future dollars, i floated this idea by my ex last year - could he live with dad while getting a degree? Turns out, no! The SM will not hear of it. Why? They have no kids at home, actually his SM's only daughter who is 35 occasionally moves in with her two kids when she is on the outs with her husband. Then she moves out.
So why cannot the father's kid live with them while in school? My ex is not empowered enough to force this issue. He moved into his wife's house. Everything is on her terms. I feel for my son. He will need some support in college, and it is great to have a supportive family. It is hard to understand when your "family" does not want you.
So to avoid creating the impression that *you* don't want your SD, why don't you convince her that *she* does not want to be the Jane Eyre type and live off an established family. She needs to actively make her own life... forge her own way.
These are food for thought,
These are food for thought, thank you. Well I had the conversation and it turned out that YSD is plannig to rent with friends in another city from January. Until then she wants to work in the Christmas markets in our city, which start in October apparently, to save the money for the deposit. So yup, it's all about saving $. To be fair on her I learn she was offering us some rent, not much obviously as the aim was to save. At the same time my DH told me a parallel version of events which was that she was aware her illustration career had effectively foundered and wanted to get down to several weeks' worth of pure art so as to get her portfolio and website sorted out so as to relaunch herself. Which of these excuses is true and why they are both being put forward at once, beats me. The main problem for me in this situation is that I don't talk to her direct, we don't have a text or FB relationship, whilst I'm fond of her and do things with her whilst she's here I don't see her separately from DH. So whilst I've been toying with emailing or ringing her about this, I'm not sure how much of the stuff I am being told is DH's agenda and not hers so I don't want to muddy the waters.
Anyway he did admit that he neglected the bios when she was here recently, so had some insight, but when it came to the crunch it appeared the real reason he wanted her here was to have her with him, he insisted it was not she who was driving this.
I have made some headway with explaining that I am not her mother and therefore she feels like a guest when here, therefore different reactions are to be expected, but I've had some real beauties from him such as,when I said I felt I had been burdened by providing care for his kids in recent years when they were older, replying that didn't he do x and y for our bios. It took quite a while to get the point over to him that we both work all the time for our bios therefore he is not taking on any extra burden on my behalf in caring for them. Another choice point of his was, "But wouldn't you let BS16 move back in temporarily to get on his feet at that age?" er no DH, never mind the independence issue, but you can't compare BS to her because any decision made by us would be as a couple living together and each the parent of him. Then get this one, where I told him he really was welcome to live with his kids if he felt it was good for them but just elsewhere than our home, and I was happy to remain here with our boys for the time being. He replied, "But then wouldn't you call me over to help if you had a migraine?"in a tone as if this would be an imposition in the circumstances. I replied, "Of course I would and that would be right too, wouldn't it?" He seemed to get these points in the end.
But it's all so hard for him to understand. I think what's going on at the bottom of it all is he has subconsciously confused me into the role of a real mother of his kids. To be fair, this is what he did for his part in his own marriage. As I've said elsewhere, when he married BM they both believed she was pregnant with another man's child potentially, but he still took her on out of love for her, and to his credit he took OSD on in the belief that she was not his and loves her just the same as his others. However ironically, she does very much to me appear to be his DNA. But this is the point, because he's capable of this sort of self sacrifice, or masochism, call it what you will, he assumes I am the same and when I patently am not, he resents me.
How we concluded it thus far is that I told him that he should not bring the subject up again with YSD himself, as the reality is that she does have other places to go during this period and we are not the only option. If she does bring it up, then I've told him my position is that she's welcome to visit and be a guest as before, even for a period of weeks if it's to do her art in peace (whilst paying a small amount for keep if it's longer than a few days), but that she is not to come here in order to do or seek paid work and lead a working life as it is incompatible with our household. Furthermore if she wants to come as a guest for longer than a couple nights, then she must give us the exact dates of her stay so that we are clear where we stand. And lastly she leaves before Christmas because BM always engineers some sort of scene with her kids then and I don't want to be exposed to it. I feel this has struck the right note for the time being as it will probably not be acceptable to her at all, but if it is, it puts her and my relationship on the same footing as I have with SS, which is that if he comes on a short visit then there are no bars to my disciplining him or asking him to leave etc, and DH does not stand in my way over those things.
But the snarky sniping from DH has begun, I am put in the horrible "engaged" position of having to wonder whether to bring the subject up again with DH so as to get closure on the whole thing. And to top it, we are all going to a gathering for MIL's 80th next weekend. Where the nasty OSD and feckless SS will be, along with YSD and a team of in laws who none of them will understand for a moment why I am being so selfish and greedy in their view. I would have ducked out but my BSs are going and would become the target of comments if I did not show up.
Isn't step life hell. It's so horrible being labeled the bad one when you are already comletely stressed out by the subtle hostilities. Thank goodness we have this place to vent.
" I think what's going on at
" I think what's going on at the bottom of it all is he has subconsciously confused me into the role of a real mother of his kids. " - Absolutely! I think you nailed it. You know how i know? I do the same this your DH does, vis-a-vis my DH and my kids. I am settling into seeing him as my kids' "real" father as their actual father is so very hands-off, while DH, the step-father, is so very hands-on. I just cannot help it!!! Comes with the territory may be... thank you for helping me see it for what it is, Poodle!
Unlike you and your DH we do not have any "ours" kids, they are either his or mine, but i view him in the same light your DH views you - in the role of a real parent, and i tend to forget... not quite forget... but just *omit* that he is not their blood relative. I sneakily expect the same interest and feeling from him that i experience, and interestingly, he often comes through, and discusses their quirks with me ad nauseum. They have a very good relationship for the most part, with my younger son refering to DH as "humble genius" and listening to him with rapt attention.
Could there be an urge to rewrite history and see family #2 as a total replacement of ( the wretchedly unsuccessful) family #1? If your DH willingly put himself in the shoes of a rescuer of BM and her daughter, it makes perfect sense for him to expect you to do the same for him and his kids. The problem is that you have your two boys who take up a lot of time and effort needed to maintain structure, and running an open house is not in your best interests. I think your commpromise is a good one, where his kids arrive for extended stays but they are still guests, and there is a departure date that is clear in everyone's mind.
Happy 80th to your MIL! Who cares about the in-laws? I am sure you can knock their socks off with your wit, charm and ST-inspired pearls of step-wisdom. You are the mother of very special kids. In the Jewish tradition all rules can be broken to avoid injury to the sick. Even laws of hospitality need to take a back seat to special needs, i would imagine. May be you could play up the special-ness a bit in everyone's imagination... Good luck!
Thanks for your support, CL
Thanks for your support, CL and PS, it means a lot to me -- and confirmation that my position's not unreasonable. DH is yet still trying to cling to the idea that I am being silly and do not realize that there is no threat to my wellbeing any more from his extended family.
It's ironic that my DH, as he said last night, sees me ever reducing his window onto a relationship with his kids, whilst I see him as ever reducing my and my children's opportunity for a stress free life. Guess I have to prove to him that having people to live with you for ever is not the only way of expressing parental love, and most importantly the only person whom you do that with is either your equal spouse or a disabled dependant/carer.
My DH was quite taken aback when I suddenly blurted, "For god's sake why don't you marry them all then". But it seemed to make him think. He and I just have never had a picture of an exclusive marriage together since the outset for I guess, in his mind, a major purpose of the marriage was to make up for loss. Loss of his dream of marriage with the BM, loss of his kids. The sad irony is that as it happens, I was in fact the love of his life but we had parted for 5 years and were wholly platonic friends before he married the BM and 15 years before this mess all happened. But that idyll was trampled all over by a bunch of trolls. I am just not going to allow my children to live in the same home as people who do not view it as a home and do not care about our little community.
And here's a new tip from my mom I got to add to our homilies on ugly in-law gatherings: "Say nothing but frequently smile annoyingly". }:)
" ... I am not her mother and
" ... I am not her mother and therefore she feels like a guest when here ..."
They simply do not get this. It's a failure of empathy; he expects everyone (most especially you, because you're an extension of him, aren't you?) to feel exactly as he feels--totally in love with his bio kid.
My darling interpreted every act of kindness (I would say, politeness) as sure evidence that I had fallen in (parental) love with his son, as he had on seeing the wriggling little creature in a blue delivery blanket.
Uh, no. I'm just being polite, and trying to be tolerant. I actually think the kid--an undiagnosed and untreated Aspie--is kind of a dick, and seeing his little wads of ... used ... tissue floating around in the toilet makes me want to throw up. He's a GUEST, and has a duty to behave in such a way as not to piss off and gross out the hostess.
But in a way we contribute to
But in a way we contribute to it. For we're too kind to say it's just politeness and trying to be helpful, from the outset. Or perhaps too fearful our relationship will not get off the ground. So that later when things have gone a little sour and we admit the lack of bond with the skids, then that's seen as some sort of backtrack, breach of promise, or dishonesty.