SO and Ex wife have keys to each others houses - is this normal?
Hi all,
This is my first post here after reading a lot of your stories. I have been with my boyfriend for 1 year and we are very serious about a future together and are talking about marriage. We do not live together yet. We are both in our late 30's, divorced and each have two kids. Mine are 8 and 5 and his are 17 and 13. I have very little contact with my ex and he only sees my kids once every other weekend and this works for us. My boyfriend on the other hand has a relationship with his ex that I am uncomfortable with and I'm not sure if I'm being reasonable or not.
They share custody 50/50, week around. The kids don't just go to my boyfriends house after school, they go to their moms and he picks them up, goes inside and sees the ex each day. Occasionally they have a family dinner. SO and BM have keys to each others houses and come and go as they please, including then the other one isn't home. They also talk on the phone numerous times a week and on weekends are always popping into each others houses to drop things off or pick stuff up or just to say hi to the kids.
There was a problem a few months ago when mutual friends of SO and BM came into town and they entertained them for an entire weekend together like a weird double date. I was not invited. SO realises now that this was hurtful and inappropriate to me but I am still uncomfortable with him and BM being so close. At times I feel like I am intruding on their family and I am the mistress. I have not met BM but she knows about me and has made rude comments to the kids about me taking their dad away from them. I have been to her house though when she wasn't there to drop the dog off (which BM asks SO to mind every few weeks) which I felt really uncomfortable being there. They run errands for each other, she is still best friends with some of his family and when she was recovering after surgery he moved into her house for a week to look after her (we were not together then).
I am sure there is nothing romantic going on between them but I can't help but feel like they haven't disconnected the family unit yet and SO is hoping that I will just fit into his established family as an add on. He still talks about her a lot. I have told him my feelings and he says he just does it to keep the peace and avoid conflict. Problem is with them being so close there is more conflict than if they were arms length. The Ex is very manipulative and SO can't see that she is walking all over him. He pays her more CS than he legally has to yet she is calling for more money every week and claims she can't work. I am also worried about my kids getting involved in their weird dynamic. My SO has already taken my kids over to visit her which upset me when I found out.
I would feel a lot better if there were some clear boundaries set and they didn't have keys to each others houses. I don't see why they need to do that when the kids are old enough to have their own set and don't need BM coming in with them. What happens when we move in together - will she expect to be able wander into my house whenever she likes? To me that sort of behaviour is too familiar. I completely understand and support the relationship with So and his kids, he is a great dad. I am a private sort of person and when I am in an exclusive relationship I want it to be just that. Not have some other woman running errand for my partner and having access to his house, or him to hers. Am I completely wrong here??
Your feelings aren't wrong.
Your feelings aren't wrong. But this may be the wrong guy for you.
The relationship they have works for them.
I think it's interesting that you don't want BM in your home(don't blame you one bit for this),yet you had no problem going into her home when she wasn't there.
Hi Disneyfan, I understand
Hi Disneyfan, I understand the contradiction of me going into BM's house when she wasn't there. To be honest I didn't know that was going to happen and once I was there and realised she wasn't I made sure to stand in the front doorway. SO just walked right in and wandered around the house but I felt disrespectful so I didn't follow him. It was all sorts of awkward for me, especially when I saw just how comfortable SO in the house, like he had some sort of right to treat it like his own. I won't be making that mistake of going back there again. Thank you for your opinion!
Wowsers, are they ever
Wowsers, are they ever enmeshed... I do not think I've seen this level of enmeshment on this site before. That being said, I don't know if you'll have any success on untangling them from each other and it may not be worth the energy to even try.
When someone shows you who
When someone shows you who they are believe them. No this is not "normal". But it's what the two of them want. Obviously it is not working for you. But don't expect it to change much if any no matter what you ask/demand of him. They are obviously very much still a family unit. Asking him to "give her up" would be similar to asking him to give up a relationship with a sibling or other close family member. Probably not going to happen.
A friend of mine from college (decades of friendship)has this relationship with her ex. They are best friends and talk on the phone every day - sometimes for an hour or more. And yes they have occasionally even had sex over the years. And it's not about the "children" as their children are both now in their 30s and on their own with families, jobs, etc. So this does not go away when the children age out.
The only person you can change is yourself. You need to be real honest with yourself about what is and what is not acceptable to you. Because if it bothers you a little bit now you will go bat shit crazy if married to it.
Yeah... I think you're in for
Yeah... I think you're in for a lot of heartache here. I don't think this is a great situation, but they do...and you aren't going to change that for them. You feel like an outsider, because you are.
Hi luvmypuppy, no, SO doesn't
Hi luvmypuppy, no, SO doesn't pay for BM's home. He does pay her more child support than required though and is also constantly forking out for extra's BM deems necessary "for the kids". BM claims to be unable to work due to a back injury so she received a large ($300k) insurance payout as well as a divorce settlement. She is terrible with money apparently, and in the past lied to SO's family about them having financial difficulties and got loans from the family behind SO's back and spent the money of stuff she wanted and never paid it back.
You are completely right, BM has it made. She has her boyfriend running around for her as well as my SO and manipulates the kids to stay with her and say no to going to SO's house. SO can't see that he has a legal right to have his kids 50% of the time and doesn't need to be buddy buddy with her to stay close to them. Thanks for your advice, I am taking it on board!
You're not wrong and he's not
You're not wrong and he's not wrong. The question is: are you meeting one another's needs?
He isn't meeting yours, since it appears he's still in a relationship of sorts with his ex. It used to be romantic, but remove the romance, and it looks just like a loveless marriage, right? They still put one another first, and naively expect that this will be just fine as they move on to new relationships. They're stuck in time. If that works for them, though, who is to judge? If he wants his ex-wife to be his priority, then that's his prerogative (though we all know it will mean he'll never successfully move on. If he does, his new woman is going to be resentful.)
You're not meeting his, because he defines co-parenting to be under a relationship with his ex. He wants a woman to settle for less "because of the kids" and act like their enmeshment is normal. Again, this is his prerogative. It's up to you whether you can live with it.
"I have told him my feelings and he says he just does it to keep the peace and avoid conflict.
Okay. Then he shouldn't try to have a new relationship, because trying so hard to keep peace with the ex means there will be none with a new woman. Prioritizing the past means sabotaging the future.
He honestly thinks that meeting his ex's emotional needs is part of co-parenting. He doesn't understand that divorce means the end of the relationship with the other parent, and emotional needs are part of relationships. The only needs he should be worrying about are his kids' needs and your needs.
"Problem is with them being so close there is more conflict than if they were arms length. The Ex is very manipulative and SO can't see that she is walking all over him."
Yes, he's set a very bad precedent. If he even wants to change it, she's going to turn to all the ways she's successfully manipulated him in the past to get him back in line. If he's not strong, or doesn't see the value in boundaries with her, then he'll get back to drinking BM's kool-aid.
"I am a private sort of person and when I am in an exclusive relationship I want it to be just that. Not have some other woman running errand for my partner and having access to his house, or him to hers. Am I completely wrong here??"
You're not wrong. Neither is he. You're focused on the keys, but the keys are a symptom of a larger problem, and that is their enmeshment and his choice to continue to meet BM's needs far above what co-parenting requires.
Don't try to change him. Lay out the issues, not in a "you are wrong" way, but in a "these are the things that prevent me from wanting to be with you" way. He will try to tell you're insecure, emotional, and jealous. (they all do). Remain calm and suggest to him that he'd be facing these problems with any woman, because it's not unique to you. It's his wanting to keep his foot in his last relationship and still move on to a new one. That's not going to make the majority of women happy, so if that's what he wants, then he needs to find someone with less self-respect than you.
See if he makes changes after you've calmly told him your needs. He might, and that's great. He may not, and if so, then this simply isn't the partner or relationship for you.
H Cadence, thanks for your
H Cadence, thanks for your advice. You hit the nail on the head when you said SO defines co-parenting as having a "friendly" relationship with BM. He thinks in black and white and says they decided to make the divorce as easy on the kids as possible so they "keep the peace" in order to co-parent. I have no idea why he can't see that there are no boundaries it this confuses the kids further. Yes, the keys are part of a larger issue. I just don't think anyone in a relationship should have that sort of closeness to a third party regardless of it there are kids involved. If it were another woman (without kids) who shared a sexual and emotional history with my partner it would be obvious that it is inappropriate so I don't see why anyone should be given a free pass and use the kids an an excuse. My ex never comes inside my house, nor me his. We are very civil but have both moved on and our kids are happy and well adjusted. My SO does think I am insecure and jealous, but I don't think that is the problem. He keeps saying that the contact is only about the kids and they never talk about anything else. I'm sorry, but unless the kids have some sort of emergency or other issue then I don't understand the need to talk about them that much. My parents are married and I don't think they talked about my siblings and I to each other that much! But your advice is correct, this is what SO and BM want to do with their lives and I have to decide if it works for me. Thank you.
I would not have lasted a
I would not have lasted a year with a guy who was still this entangled with his ex.
The "keeping the peace" thing is an overused excuse, he is still this enmeshed with her because he wants to be. He did not entertain friends with her for an entire weekend just to keep the peace. The fact that it did not occur to him that this was out of line when he is in a relationship with you, is only one red flag.
If this arrangement works for them, great but it wouldn't work for me and it doesn't sound like it's going to work for you. It's not for you to change, that will only cause resentment on their end, and heartache on yours.
Sure, you can lay it out for him (although you shouldn't have to, he should have seen a long time ago that a lot of this is not appropriate when in a serious relationship with someone else) and he can say things will change, but if he didn't want it to be this way, he would have changed it a long time ago.
So now, you will be that girlfriend who is trying to come between him and his ex, between him and his children, between his ex and his family. You will be the jealous, insecure girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. I just wouldn't have the energy.
And that does not even touch on the finances. Once you two are married and trying to plan a future together, including retirement, him giving her extra money will be an issue. And trust me, her hand will always be out.
Hi hereiam, this is what I am
Hi hereiam, this is what I am worried about now. That I will be the horrible girlfriend trying to break up a "family". Funnily enough SO was absolutely shocked when I first brought up that I had concerns about his relationship with BM. He said he had no idea that anyone wouldn't think it was cool for them to still be friendly. I don't think he has any clue that his idea of friendly is way beyond the civil type of friendly any normal divorced couple have. Apparently when he grew up he knew families who were divorced and they (and the new spouses) would all hang out together like one big happy family. He nearly fell off his chair when I said that wouldn't fly with me and I wasn't interested in being friends with BM. I don't know the woman, she may be lovely, but what what I've heard she isn't and in any case I'm just not the type to want to be the 5th wheel. I wish he could see that this dynamic isn't normal or healthy. Instead he thinks I'm picking fights and being controlling. You are right, using the kids is just an excuse. There is no need to be enmeshed with BM for SO to have a great relationship with his kids. He needs to realise that the kids have two families now and separate as such. The finances do concern me too. SO is still getting back on track after the divorce and e doesn't have the extra money to keep handing over to her. We rarely go out on "dates" because of the limited finances, but BM seems to live a very comfortable life even without a job. Thank you for your advice.
I will have to disagree with
I will have to disagree with everyone: yes, it's normal if they make it normal.
I have a key to my ExHs house. He has the code to mine and DHs house. Why? Because we cannot rely on my son to keep track of the key.
BUT...I do not use the key to my ExHs house unless I have asked him every single time. Even if it's just picking up DS (who is old enough to be home alone and get picked up) and using the key to lock up, I ask.
ExH also lets me know if he has to stop by to ask if he can (and to have me remind him of the code).
Neither of us go into the house past the foyer unless it's pre-arranged. We always leave whatever it is getting picked up (other than DS) in the foyer.
We have clear boundaries and we only cross them when given permission.
You should probably talk to your BF about where the boundaries are. The weekend with friends is a bit unusual but perhaps it's innocent and if they get along, that's so much better than them fighting over the friends.
Hi redwine, you sound like
Hi redwine, you sound like you have a great co-parenting relationship with your ex and clear boundaries separating you. I think that's really mature. I don't expect SO and BM not to have contact, but just to have clear boundaries, like you have established. Thank you!
I am going to present a
I am going to present a little bit of a different situation...
I have two mutual friends who recently divorced. It was very smooth, an easy agreement between the both of them that never turned into a battle. They realized they were both better friends than they were partners in a marriage. She moved out and they shared custody of their daughter. Even at 6, their daughter completely understood everything that was going on, but when she was at one house or the other, she greatly missed the other parent. So the decision was made that they would live together in the same house, albeit in separate rooms and live mostly separate lives. They are basically friends who are roommates, who happen to have a daughter. They still attend events with friends they have had since college, and all around the situation is so much better than it was when they were married.
I said all this to show that exes can be friends, even after a marriage is over.
This could be the case here, though the manipulation and not bringing you into the full picture makes things iffy. If you are totally uncomfortable with things, then walk away. People only change if THEY want to, you can't make them do it.
Hi Princesscupcake, wow, your
Hi Princesscupcake, wow, your friendship an interesting dynamic! Honestly, if that is how they want to live their lives then good for them. My only issue would be if one of them got into a new relationship and the new partner was't comfortable. I think when there is no other parties involved then people should co-parent how they see fit. But my SO pursued me and involved me in his dynamic without giving me the full story and hence the ability to make an informed decision prior to entering the relationship. I do think it is unfair to bring someone into the mix and expect them to just accept things they may not be comfortable with. I like to think that I treat others how I would like to be treated so I would never put anyone in that awkward situation of either going along with thing or being the "bad guy" and trying to make the situation appropriate for all.
There are other people now involved whose feelings and needs are just as important as SO, BM and their kids, namely my kids and I. It feels very selfish to expect me and my kids to fall into another families dynamic when I have worked so hard to build a separate life from my ex. Maybe it is selfish on my part. I'm just not into sharing my partner with BM and I don't think it is right to have her feelings be such a consideration in our relationship. Just like how I don't intrude on my ex and his new partners relationship. Thanks for your point of view!
Hi Sueu2, whilst I found your
Hi Sueu2, whilst I found your post a little harsh you make a good point. I am to blame for staying in this relationship. To be fair though, when I commented on it being "unfair" to bring me into a relationship when SO is so enmeshed with BM I was referring to the truth about how involved they are only recently coming to light. Through most of the relationship I had thought that their relationship was cordial, but distant, as it was implied to me. It has only been in the last month or two that I have come to realise the extent of interaction.
I am a very independent person and have decent self esteem. My reason for not leaving the relationship thus far is due to my not being au fait with what is deemed reasonable to expect from a partner with kids and a BM. I have questioned this to friend in my real life and received mixed opinions. Some think it is completely acceptable and I am too possessive. I wanted to investigate further hence my post.
But yes, I have had a frank conversation with SO about this matter and I am willing to give it a small amount of time to see if any changes come into effect. SO is a people pleaser by nature. I don't believe that he does any of this with cognisance of the effect on others. Now that it has been brought to his attention (and he has made the promise to me to set clear boundaries) I feel like I should give him the opportunity to either come through with the promise or not. If the case is that nothing changes then yes, I will absolutely put myself and my kids first and remove us from the situation.
I do think that part of my issue is solely to do with me. I was very hesitant to begin dating again (and I do not fall in love easily) and my main point of focus was being with someone who was fantastic with my kids, and his if he had any. After seeing too many absent fathers who I have no respect for I failed to look at the other side of the equation, being someone who is too enmeshed in his previous life. Not something I can say I have come across in my life with friends etc. I was prepared for a bitter BM, but not a too friendly one. This rests on me and I should have probed a little deeper during the beginning of the relationship rather than being so happy to be dating a wonderful hands on dad to his kids and who treats mine so well.
That you for your opinion. It has made me think about my own boundaries and making sure I am doing the best thing for my kids and I.
You got some great advice
You got some great advice from Sueu2. That ran through my mind, too - "we're telling her about her man lacking boundaries, but she also lacks them with him."
I can definitely sympathize with you for finding out too late how enmeshed he was. My wake up call happened a year in, when my SO bought a new place, and I experienced the BM letting herself in, not once, but twice, when I was there alone (not living there, helping him move, etc.) When I told him what happened, my clueless-at-the-time SO argued with me that she couldn't possibly have just opened the door and walked in. "She'd never do that." And that was what set off some tough realizations for me.
It's tough when you already love them. If you're able to know this stuff up front, it's a much easier decision to make. But these guys have a way of making it seem like everything's hunky dory. My guy, on our third or fourth date, told me what an amicable coparenting relationship they had, and what a great mother she was. Internally, I rolled my eyes, because I'd already experienced watching her abusive text barrages roll in on his phone, and I knew something wasn't quite right. It was my first time dating a dad, so I just didn't know how that was going to play out.
"I was prepared for a bitter BM, but not a too friendly one."
Well, not to add another drop to the bucket, but be prepared to be blamed by the BM. Even if your guy starts setting boundaries, she's not going to believe it's truly his choice. You will be labeled as "controlling" him, since many of the people-pleaser guys will not be clear that changes are their decision.
So, even if your guy does shape, up, be prepared for the BM to be at war with you. She's been able to control him, she will not like losing that, and she will set her sights on you.
Fun stuff, eh?
Whatever you do, don't get caught up in the role of the person making him change. Make his choices clear, and be prepared to walk away if his choices don't make you happy. It totally sucks, but it's the only way to preserve your sanity.
Thanks Cadence, you must have
Thanks Cadence, you must have been totally shocked when your SO's BM walked in on you. That is so wrong. It's amazing that these SO's are so blind to what is plainly obvious to everyone else, that the BM's are taking liberties. You would think after being married to them they would know what they are like.
I think not being informed of the extent of the relationship with BM in the initial stages of dating is something that I am bothered by. My SO, the same as yours, also told me that he had a amicable co-parenting relationship with the BM and she is "a great person". Being that I did not have any other information about her, or their current involvement and I had't dated a divorced dad before I was naive to what was really going on. I feel a little duped to be honest, although I know it wasn't on purpose. My SO thinks what he and BM have is so normal and congratulates himself of "being the bigger person" and playing nice with her so he can be close to his kids. He tells me he doesn't know why I (and other people) equate being nice with weakness. I do see what he is doing as weakness though. I grew up in a family of very strong people, who would never put up with shit from anyone. So I have trouble respecting people who let themselves get manipulated (including myself in this situation).
I am already feeling resentment from SO on this topic. He has been a little distant since we had our big discussion about boundaries. I do think he is seeing me as being controlling and commented on how women always want men to change and that I should love him for him. I think that is a little simplistic of an idea, and a bit of a cop out really. He is fantastic in every other way and treats me so well but this issue can't just be swept under the carpet with his idea of unconditional love. He tells me he doesn't want to apologise for being a good guy and nice to his ex for the sake of the kids. He also said that he doesn't want to have to lie about when he sees her. I told him flat out that if I caught him in any sort of a lie I would be gone in a flash. This does seem to me like he, despite what he has promised, still does not see the issue and is resistant. BM will absolutely go to war with me if I mess up her perfect family arrangement. I don't think there will be any question that it has come from me. SO is too honest in that regard, plus I think it will make a convenient way to espouse any blame. Whilst I love him this whole thing is really seeming too hard. I just wished I had known about all these issues at the start. Thanks so much for your advice.
Any man who utters the words
Any man who utters the words "keep the peace" or "don't rock the boat" with regards to BM is not worth a bucket of warm piss - to use one of my favorite phrases from John Nance Garner.
Yes notasm3, I am now
Yes notasm3, I am now realising that these phrases are most often used as excuses for getting walked over by the BM!
"It's just easier to do what
"It's just easier to do what she wants", too!
My DH's ex once texted us at
My DH's ex once texted us at 3 am asking if she could come over to see SD28 even though she had seen her that day. DH said no. Come in the morning at a reasonable hour. Turns out she was texting from inside our house!!!!
She used to come to our house and just walk in. She still calls and asks to see him when she doesn't need to. If you want this to be your life stay. But if I were you I would sit him down and tell him that friendly is good but boundaries are better.
Oh my god. "It's coming from
Oh my god. "It's coming from inside the house!!!" Isn't that a horror movie cliche?
But yeah, a 28 year old living at home? Nope. A BM of adult kids who still wants to be in touch with DH? Double nope. Their time has passed and they are no longer legally required to communicate. Wave a nice hello to her at future graduations and weddings and be done with it, and stop with the "she's part of my life" bullhonky. Only if you want her to be, and if my guy wants her to be, I will no longer be a part of his life.
That is unbelievably creepy.
That is unbelievably creepy. I sure hope your DH her exactly where to go!
"they entertained them for an
"they entertained them for an entire weekend together like a weird double date. I was not invited."
Excluded, unseen. How convenient for BM and SO that they still get to appear as a couple to the outside world.
"At times I feel like I am intruding on their family and I am the mistress"
Yup, you are and you are.
"I am sure there is nothing romantic going on between them"
Sure there's not. Just keep telling yourself that.
"He still talks about her a lot"
He still has feeling for her, he's not over her.
"goes inside and sees the ex each day"
How sweet. If he's in there for more than 3 minutes I'd be worried.
"SO and BM have keys to each others houses and come and go as they please"
Pretty cozy.
Why does SO even need you? He's got BM to run his errands, go on dates with, have long conversations with, visits with her almost EVERY day. You're being snowed. If you're ok with that then by all means continue. If not get some ice melt and a dose of reality.
I have no idea how long SO is
I have no idea how long SO is in BM's house each day as we don't live together to see what time he gets home. The fact is that I don't think he is there all that long (under 30 mins) but I don't see the reason he needs to go any further than the doorway. He sees her more times a week than he sees me! You are right, I am a girlfriend of convenience and that has become clear to me. Thanks for your comments!
No it's not normal. Do they
No it's not normal. Do they have a grown disabled child together? I could see in a way of a x having a key to help a grown disabled kid but with limitations, not dinner with each other.
No disabled kids. In fact I
No disabled kids. In fact I love the kids. They are extremely well behaved, polite, respectful and intelligent. SO says to me that BM's house is his kids house so he feels like it's his too. No boundaries. Although he was very proud of himself to tell me that when BM is home he knocks on the door. As though I should pat him on the back! He still has a key and goes there when she isn't home. It's just wrong. The one time I went there with him he was running around the backyard turning off taps so BM didn't waste water!
I'm commenting because girl
I'm commenting because girl I've been in that shit.
We're older though. Same thing still had original house. Had to til son graduates. Ok. But DH should of Never been going over there to see his adult BC. They drive !,, that's a little different so what.
If he's serious about you he should of invited you along on that double date. He dissed you. Period... This would not be tolerated and no why bring your children into it if he can lay down the law and you put your foot in his ass
I did it.
And she ran DH like a prisoner . Telling him to run over and let the dogs out. He did pay for his work building and his stuff was in it.
I saw that. But, she was in control of him. She would harass him.
And I'm sorry your bf is making some critical errors. Why is he still going over there.
An ex is just that. And I had to repeatly tell mine that too.
He just made it a bad habit !!!!
My suggestion is nip it hard. If things don't change, Bail !!!