Expectations and Boundaries
Advice anyone? Even a little would be so helpful.
Recent events have caused me to realize the stark differences in where my fiance and I are with respect to having been divorced and being prepared to move on with life as a blended family. I have been divorced for 5 years and living as a single mother of two children who are 10 years apart in age (though, the 21 year old left home two years ago). My fiance has been divorced for a little over one year and has been a full-custody single father of two very young children (2 and 6). I think he is a good man and he has always shown me that he values me and stands on strong moral grounding. Both of us went through having been deserted by cheaters, with the other spouse leaving children behind, so we have a mutual understanding and consideration in that respect.
I think everyone adjusts and adapts as life fluctuates. That tends to leave those of us who have been abandoned with trust issues, bad habits, and the need to recreate the boundaries in our lives. The advantage I have is that I have had 5 years to completely detach and to establish appropriate boundaries so I could lead a healthy life after the divorce. I found this very necessary because for almost 2 years, my ex would try to call me to discuss the recent news events or what he learned that day in church because he was so used to having me around for years and it took him a little while to fully detach. That needy, bitchy, clingy, demanding ex (BM) that I often read about - that's not me. Done is done as far as I'm concerned.
I see some similar patterns in my fiance's behavior, who has only been divorced for a little over a year. These behaviors were not immediately obvious until we moved in together, for obvious reasons - we did not live together to observe them. Also, I did not know how recently he'd been separated and divorced until some time after we started dating so I did not know what to look for - but time is not reversible, so saying I "should have done this" or I "should have done that" doesn't undo where I am now and I have to move forward in one way or another with whatever information I do have.
After one nasty relationship, I am guarded and I do have difficulty with being vulnerable, but I don't think it fair to make my fiance pay for my ex's sins (so to speak). Also, I will say that as I have addressed these behaviors, he has been good and consistent with adjusting - no "one on one"/alone conversations in another room, no "surprise" visits from BM, no unwelcome visitors from BM's family, etc...
I did not know how to set boundaries for our joint account (established to pay for rent, utilities, groceries, and other joint expenses). I did not expect that a birthday party would be funded from the money that had recently come out of my paycheck into the account. Imagine my surprise and how difficult it was to address since we're supposed to be building a family - aren't we? This will be my future step daughter, right?
I did not expect him to be so friendly and absorbed into the BM's family that I would have to deal with them frequently - I thought it natural to separate not just from the ex, but from the ex's family circle as well. So, imagine my surprise when they appear for a holiday or ask to come over for dinner, or are invited to a birthday party that I didn't expect.
I do not mean to sound territorial, but imagine my surprise when he's been called to fix the BM's aunt's broken stove's gas pilot - and does it without question (I'm assuming out of habit). Somehow, that seems (or at least feels) like a breached boundary.
I swear, sometimes the response I get from him is akin to "oops, wrong hole." (my apologies to those of you who are more sensitive and easily shocked, but it's the first thing that came to mind and I'm tired today). How do you prove that it wasn't an accident or minor oversight because he acted out of habit ::cringe:: or just isn't used to balancing things with me in mind given our new living arrangements? Even if you were to prove it, knowledge and proof don't necessarily lead to results - and that's what I'm looking for.
Sooo, while I apologize for the length of my diatribe (and any shocked senses), I really would appreciate any insight that could help me navigate this NEW blended family/step-parent thing. He deserves a fair chance, but realistically speaking, I do too.
Please?
This sounds like my situation
This sounds like my situation except for the overly involved BM family.
I was divorced for a little longer than you and DH was divorced for a little over a year when we met.
What I would do differently and I advise you to do: don't get married yet. Don't move in together. If you have, move back out.
Your fiance has not disengaged and set boundaries with his ex and her family. That's why most of us here disengage and set our own boundaries...because it hasn't happened between our SO and their ex.
I would say you'll be venting and frustrated until the kids age-out if your fiance doesn't start distancing himself and figuring out how to handle himself now. He will also lean on you and expect you to "help" to enable him to keep up his habits with the ex and family.
oops, duplicate posting
oops, duplicate posting
Just because you divorce
Just because you divorce someone doesn't mean the years of being family Is wiped away (extended family like siblings and aunts and uncles ect.)
yes, actually it does if it causes problems in your new relationship. it's yet another reason divorce sucks. you can't just divorce the bad parts of a marriage and keep the good parts that feel good to you (if it causes problems).
It's like being force
It's like being force initiated into a gang of people whose loyalty remains with a terrible cancerous person that you were brought in to replace.
The reason I have a problem
The reason I have a problem with the thing with the aunt is that he speaks as if he owes it to her to do these things ("I have to go change her oil," "I have to make an extra pie for her," "I have to go paint the hallway," etc.) - but her husband is perfectly capable of doing these things himself. Also, the aunt and uncle never had kids,and they have a nice combined income that allows them to afford to hire someone to do those things if her husband simply doesn't want to do it. He does the same, to a lesser degree, with BM's other family members - ("I have to make a coconut cake for Charles," "I have to help Kelly with...," etc.). It always starts off with "I have to" and it always ends with some member of BM's family. It's another symptom of having not fully disengaged and, maybe I am being territorial, but I have to deal with so many of BM's family members all the time (more than once per week) that I'm truly sick of it and I don't understand.
I don't have much in the way
I don't have much in the way of advice, I have not been in this situation. My DH was done with BM and her whole damn family when we started dating and he has never looked back.
My DH and I have never had a joint account. I wanted to make sure I was not subsidizing BM (which I kind of was anyway by default) and DH was weird about money because of his life with BM (she took his whole paycheck when they were married). Everything was already in my name because he moved in with me and bills were taken out of my checking account. So, DH has always transferred a certain amount into my checking every month for his share of the bills. In 18 years, we have never changed it. It works for us.
I don't know about your fiance, though, because he has proven to be less than honest. It seems to me, you have given him a fair chance by overlooking his "omissions" and it just keeps being one thing after another. He way overstepped using that joint account for his personal use.
You seem to have your act together and know who you are and what you want and seem secure with yourself. You had 5 years to get to know yourself and be on your own and to make it on your own. You just seem to be way ahead of your fiance and it's like you are waiting for him to catch up. How long do you think that will take?
I don't know. I think part of
I don't know. I think part of the problem is that he's not used to having to consult anyone before he does anything. I feel lost right now and that's unusual for me because I am so used to being in control of everything. He's not selfish or self centered, he just isn't used to consulting me and because BM's family don't bother him, it doesn't occur to him that I need them to back off. As far as money is concerned, he's not greedy - if I look at something or mention it, he remembers and I often come home to find it (whatever it is) on the counter because he would just buy it. It's not something he just does for his daughter, and if anything, he does it only very rarely for himself.
By way of background - we're both used to being responsible for everything, and being in control of everything (out of necessity, if nothing else). We also both have strong personalities, both of us being former soldiers and executive professionals. While we do have nearly identical traditional parenting/family order personalities are concerned as I am very nurturing and stable, and he is more structured and assertive; we are different in one aspect in that I am an introvert, speaking only when there is a need or desire to, while he is an extrovert and will talk to anyone, anywhere, about anything (It's exhausting to watch).
It's an adjustment for both of us, but I can only control how I handle it (and no, I'm not very patient) - hence my post seeking advice. >>BUT<< you are absolutely correct - I am way ahead of him and I am waiting for him to catch up so I can see if he'll be different then. I don't want to get married until I'm sure that this will work out, so I have not been willing to reset the date.
Usually people will advise
Usually people will advise you to avoid "I" statements but there is a place for them and to answer your question I would go this route. You tell your bf, "I need this, I need that." This way you don't have to justify your request based on moral correctness or common sense or anything. You are simply stating your need. He may very well respond with "Well, I need THAT and THIS." That's fine. Now you have both stated what you want. Perfect. Can you both provide what the other wants? Or not? Can you provide substitutes?
It's not an argument and no one's defenses are triggered. You are both being open now and that's a good thing.
Regarding the aunt I do understand how you felt. Get it out in the open with him. If he says "ex wife will kill me if I don't do it" that is him telling you he is not available to be YOUR partner. If he says, "i have genuine affection for this old lady and would die a thousand deaths if she suffered" then you can work together on that. "Ok, bf, I have a need for you to become fond of MY relatives, do you have room in your heart for that? Will you have TIME?" Or whatever works for you.
Ok, so - I'm not trusting
Ok, so - I'm not trusting enough to go in completely blind. I am a former U.S. Army soldier and I currently am a paralegal. I'm usually quite solid and difficult to shake, so try to keep in mind that I'm tougher than I may sound at the moment. I have been to his work and numerous work functions, so I do not question his employment because I've met everyone there is to meet and they all speak highly of his work. Also, he's given me the passwords to his bank accounts - I've seen the direct deposits. I also conducted a thorough background check on him for all records and media I could access, but I found nothing noteworthy. If he is a criminal after all of that, then he is unquestionably good at it.
We discussed boundaries and expectations on several occasions, so he knows what I expect and I know what he expects - however, I may have to be a lot more specific moving forward. He is used to making all of the decisions without having to consult anyone because his ex never got involved - she wanted to be taken care of, so he took care of her so that she didn't have to anything (he did the bills, took care of the kids, and took care of cleaning/chores). Knowing that, it is possible that he is proceeding out of habit as opposed to selfishness. That said, I am not his ex and I pull my fair share, so I do expect to be consulted.
ALL OF THAT ASIDE, I also didn't expect the "omissions" and I am quite uneasy about them because, in my mind, an intentional omission is dishonest and unacceptable. Accidental omissions can be discussed and addressed, however, I am having difficulty ascertaining whether or not the few omissions thus far were intentional or accidental - hence my reservations and the postponed wedding. Moving forward with this information is my current dilemma.
You don't need to prove it.
You don't need to prove it. And proof seldom leads to change unless someone wants to change. The fact that he has several times now gone for the "but I Thought" excuse is more than coincidence. If it's out of habit that's actually even worse. He lied to you or at least lied by omission on several things before he essentially stole money for his child's party.
You can choose to accept his excuses or you can look at the pattern that is forming. I can understand you overlooking the first "oops, wrong hole" but honestly, if it happened once a month, once a week, every time would you give a damn Why it was happening or would you slap the crap out of a man that was disrespecting you, your desires, your boundaries and not let him back in your bed? Would you accept the excuse of it being an accident despite feeling violated?
"Oops" is working for him. You haven't canceled the party, it doesn't sound like you're closing the joint account, and you somehow still feel he's showing you that he values You and is of good moral character. A man of high moral standing does not guilt trip their partner into providing their child with extras nor do they simply wander off with funds intended for othe purposes. A man that values you would not time after time "misunderstand" and think he'd told you extremely important information or that you had agreed to something. A man that values you would not invite his ex to a party you are funding and inform you after the fact.
I wonder what his reaction would be to no joint account - he simply gives you his fair portion of living expenses every month. What he has left is what is available for him to spend on his children and what you have is for you to spend on yours. Would he try to guilt you into footing the cost of entertaining his kids? Would he become angry? Because these are very telling reactions - that he values your paycheck far more than he values you. If he wants more for his kids, things like birthday parties, he needs to find a way to earn that money himself, not depend on you to feel pressured into providing it for him. That's you being used, not building a family.
I agree about the pattern and
I agree about the pattern and I have noticed it.
It is easy for someone outside the situation to see things I might have missed and I appreciate that because it's why I'm here. Not knowing his background and habits, it is easy to believe his behaviors were intentional, but I do know that he is used to making these types of decisions without having to consider who it will affect other than himself and his children because, until we moved in together, these many things he did regularly did not directly affect me - financially or otherwise.
He is used to living and dealing with a person who is nearly my opposite - someone who did not want to know what the family's finances looked like, someone who did not/would not work, someone who did not help with household chores, someone who did not help take care of their children. In that situation, he did not have a need to consult her with such decisions because she wanted no part of it. If you do that repeatedly for 5-6 years, it becomes quite a habit. For that reason, it is more difficult to ascertain whether the behavior is intentional or the result of some residual habit that has not been fully worked out. We only have lived together for 3 weeks and we're still learning to dance around each other on a daily basis whereas before, we saw each other about 3-4 times per week and then returned to managing our own home without each other's input.
Now, understanding that it does not make me feel better about what's been done, it does lead me to believe that it is possibly a habit that needs to be weeded out as he learns what he can/cannot expect with me. Does this make any sense?
I agree with you - and others
I agree with you - and others - who have nailed the boundaries issue. Of course, that's why I brought it up because I was certain that the issue was boundary-related. I appreciate your advice and I plan on sitting his ass down this evening when I get home from work.
The misunderstandings about
The misunderstandings about financial arrangements like joint accounts often stem from the definition of what constitutes "joint expenses".
DH's seem to often expect their next spouse to love their spawn just as much as they do, and this guy might be thinkng that his new wife is a scrooge if she can't fork out for the princess's birthday party. It seems logical now to revisit the terms of the joint account...say, by putting in half/half each month, but only enough to cover groceries then top it up if a repair bill comes in. Make it clear the money is for groceries and repair bills only. Or even just groceries.
Otherwise, keep your money guarded, or this guy will find a way to relieve you of it. Remember, the only thing safeguarding your future security is that money.
I may sound cynical, but it is foolish to enter into a second marriage thinking it will last forever, and just merge finances. I had the shock of my life when my fiance (a DH who appeared to have good ethics) suddenly started seeing the Ex for dinner and responding with "you aren't the boss of me, I do what I want" .... inviting his D21 to come and live with us if she ended her relationship, and basically started spending his savings on a popularity/pissing contest with the BM and the kids. Soooo glad I could shut down the gravy train quickly and execute Plan B.
Sure these life situations are heartbreaking. But reas the threads on this site, and it is clear the more you let users trample you, the harder it is to keep your hard won independence.
I am working on Plan B
I am working on Plan B wholeheartedly. I have a separate personal account already and I plan to keep it. I will do what I can to reassert the boundaries and be more specific, but I admit that it saddens me.
First off - I'd be pissed off
First off - I'd be pissed off with him for the lying. Then I'd be frustrated at the "oops...I did it again".. and finally.. I'd be goddamn furious at him using money meant for bills, on his skids birthday party.. and I'd damn well give him the ear bashing of his life.
When my ex and I divorced - not only did we divorce eachother - we divorced eachothers family. We were married 12 years and lived together 14. He got pretty close to my family. Close enough to invite them to his wedding. They went. I refused to have anything to do with them for 2 years. They got it.
Current situation. SO and BM have been divorced for 9 years now. BM still hangs with SO's family (from his Dad's side). She attends all BBQ's, gatherings, functions etc. SO has stopped having anything to do with them because BM is a manipulative toxic bitch with evil always on her mind.
For your marriage/relationship to work - he must put you first. Not BM or her relos. They no longer have any place in his life.
Now I would recommend having separate accounts from here on, shutting down that party and sitting him down for a serious talk about boundaries.
Talk is happening tonight.
Talk is happening tonight. I'm trying to work through what I need to say right now. I don't know why I thought it'd be easier this time.
It's something you are going
It's something you are going to have to work him out of. I do understand how
Frustrating it is to be in his ex's circle. I see it everyday with our friends and their f'd up life. Just the other day our friend had a birthday party for his girlfriends kid and her ex husband invited himself to our friends house. We sat quietly
Eating cake as we watched the ex h of hers help himself to our guy friends house, the ex took out the creaking garbage. It was
A bit halarious in my seat. Anything is better than drama at my own house. Our friend couldn't say much because his ex in laws was doing the karaoke and refer to our guy friend as son. LoL I'm different. I'm very In tuned with people's intentions. I know my husbands ex family is for the bet interest of their daughter, niece, or whatever kin she maybe. The kids are the same way but have to deal with that.
I'm not sure why people think
I'm not sure why people think that being married means you have to have a joint account? My DH and I used to. I manage all the bills etc. He got all paranoid at one time and pretty much accused me of using the money on other things (I'm sure residual paranoia from BM's ways). I set his ass straight with a spreadsheet showing all of MY expenses coming out of the account and all of HIS expenses. Plus the ones that were truly joint. Shut his ass up.
BUT - I was never going to put myself in that situation again. I still take care of all the bills etc. But the only joint account we have is a savings for our house we are getting. Otherwise, I have my account and pay all the bills out of there. He gives me half of the expenses to put into my account. He can burn the rest if he feels like it.