BM ramping up PAS?
After talking to SD7 last night, who for the 3rd night in a row cried on the phone asking why Daddy won't let her spend any time with mommy on the weekends, DH sent the following email:
"BM,
I am asking you to not discuss our current change order negotiations with the girls. At 5 and 7 years old, it is inappropriate and stressful for them to be told they cannot spend time with you on weekends because "Daddy won't allow it". We are currently operating under an agreement that both parents mutually agreed to. They clearly do not know all the facts surrounding these change order negotiations and you are putting them in a very stressful situation by involving them.
Thank you,
DH"
BM responded this morning:
"I DO NOT have inappropriate discussion with the girls.
What you imply in your email is incorrect. Instead of verbally attacking me over the phone and having and open discussion with your daughters and me you jumped to incorrect conclusions
I simply told her that these decisions are made by you and I and that for us to make the best ones we need to know how they feel and that it is okay to express these feelings to me and their daddy.
I am asking you to stop dismissing our children's thoughts, feelings, and wants for your own selfish agenda.
This email was sent to spark a debate with me. I will not entertain this banter with you.
Unless it is involving the health, welfare or everyday care or drop off logistics of our children please don not email me.
I am not willing to entertain any more of these emails that are not about our girls.
Thanks
Have a great day"
She, of course, cc'd her attorney. DH wants to reply so bad to set the record straight, but he's holding off for now.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something? Surely your DH's email was about the girls welfare? They dont need to be made aware of adult things ie change orders.
Right? That was my initial
Right? That was my initial reaction too.
Would you reply?
Yep, she is ramping up that
Yep, she is ramping up that PAS.
Hopefully, though, her own attorney will see that she's full of crap.
I hope so too. DH forwarded
I hope so too. DH forwarded to his attorney this morning as well, just as an FYI.
Would you reply? Or let it be?
I agree, hope her attorney
I agree, hope her attorney sees, our BM attorney never sees though. instead he fuels her fire. So we're getting these requests for crap like "BM needs the CO changed so that the alternating years for spring break are flipped" to which DH attorney responded, "BM got spring break this year, no reason to change". And BM attorney responded "our state's standard CO has the years reversed, BM rights are being denied if you force her to stick to this schedule"..
First, if you alternate years for this kind of vacations, who cares whether you get an even or odd?
Second, BM never felt like her rights were being denied when she had spring break this year, so why is it that when she's told she can't have two consecutive years that now all of a sudden her rights are being denied because she won't be on he same schedule as every other NCP in our state...which is a lie in itself, since it would be impossible to get every NCP on the same schedule.
But anyway, it's because BM and her attorney are full of crap.
let it be, don't engage.
let it be, don't engage.
Me and DH were ignoring
Me and DH were ignoring anything and everything BM pulled but since taking advice from here we are going to call her out each and everytime she is in the wrong from now on.
Don't engage her, you don't
Don't engage her, you don't want her printing it all out for the judge. My xh was so much like that too, trying to draw me in to emailing and every time I wrote one he printed it out and twisted it into something that would benefit him. He tried, though after awhile judges and attorney's began seeing through his crazies. In the end the judge ordered communication btw us to only be via email b/c of xh's crazies.
Crazy exes.
We are definitely on the path
We are definitely on the path to court .. her attorney filed for a custody modification this morning.
I have no doubt she's trying to build some sort of case .. but all the "evidence" she's building is simply her accusing DH of things in email. So it's not like there's any actual PROOF of anything (because most of what she claims did not happen).
Make sure he is addressing it
Make sure he is addressing it all and giving her an explanation. The courts done care about cold herd proof it seems!!
The only thing I would
The only thing I would suggest is no where did DH say what the problem is or what the skids where saying. In order for him to 100% clear he really should include this. If he does he will also have a record of every single PAS BM manages to execute. She can go ahead and build a case on it but the court will see through that. Also it gives him the opportunity to make sure that BM is actually saying these things or ask for an explanation. Now I know we are all fairly sure when this stuff happens BM is PASing but at least he is doing his due dilegence to fix it even if its just for show.
BF has started doing this with BM and it really puts them into a corner. He always waits to adress it all when he sends the kids back. That way you arent stuck communicating all the time or he replies on exchange days.
Good luck with your BM she sounds "lovely". I wonder what exactly she is up to!
My only concern with sending
My only concern with sending some like this is that it's pointing fingers at BM for causing trauma that DH is not qualified to assess, kwim?
It's opening up greater debate and bickering .. she won't have a conversation with him in person. She doesn't even drop off or pick up the kids .. she sends her bf to do it most of the time.
I agree with you on that
I agree with you on that one...thats why we simply ask what was said and what we can each do in our own homes to fix it. Of course in asking that you know full well the answer if any must be taken with a grain of salt. It gives you an answer sometimes for the skids. It also is great for documentation if BM continually avoids a point blank question of what was said. There is not really any way to turn that around in court to a negative thing against DH.
She said in her email: "I
She said in her email:
"I simply told her that these decisions are made by you and I and that for us to make the best ones we need to know how they feel and that it is okay to express these feelings to me and their daddy."
I can't imagine she would offer any additional information, or admit to saying the things we KNOW she's saying. Not in writing .. not with a court date in the near future.
This is true and thst really
This is true and thst really sucks. BF writes emails now just for the pure intention that they could end up in court. He also tells BM of the negative PAS sd tells us about. All in an effort to to just documentate them and also in the attempt that maybe she will come to her senses. He has aked her in the past to address an issue if sd is upset with something she said. Again we dont expect her to maybe there is a glimmer of hope but really everything he writea now is just for court if it is needed. Rhe courts are starting to take PASing into account as well. BF has asked her 2x in emails to look into it very nicely for his kids well being. Again it shows his concern for his children. Like someone else said no feelings involved you are writting a buiness email essentially.
Thank you, I appreciate it!
Thank you, I appreciate it!
DH drafted the following
DH drafted the following reply (with everyone's input of course):
"BM,
I did not, nor have I ever, verbally attacked you. As stated in my original email, I am concerned for the girls’ mental health and emotional well-being, which you are putting at stake each time you discuss adult issues in which they have no control, like our mutually agreed upon custody schedule.
Regardless of what you actually say to the children, when SD7 walks away from your conversations with inaccurate information and saying things to me like (and I quote), “Mommy said I can’t spend weekends with her because you won’t allow it”, there is clearly a breakdown in your communication with her. This is the second consecutive conversation with SD7 where she has said this; she has become increasingly persistent and agitated in these conversations. Our kids are 5 and 7 years old; children at such a tender young age parrot what they see and hear in great effort to fit in and be accepted by those around them. Her recent behavior concerns me very much since prior to last weekend (which they spent with you), they have never expressed anything of this nature to me and certainly not with this level of stress or urgency.
I am asking you, again, for the best interest of our children, to refrain from having conversations of this type with the girls. As their parents, we can reach a new arrangement giving you some weekend time, as I have been trying to do since my initial modification proposal in March.
If you do not see how this stress and unnecessary pressure on our children to now insert themselves into our decision-making process is detrimental to their emotional health and welfare, then I apologize. But I will not refrain from communicating with you when I feel my 5 and 7 year old child's mental health is in jeopardy. This is not about you or me; this is about working together as parents to ensure the best outcome possible for our children.
DH"
Still not certain he should even send it. I think it helps just writing it.
If I where you I would
If I where you I would shorten it and readdress it on the next exchange day.
Thank You for your response and concerns. However, my email was not intended to start drama or harass you in any way. Skids have said to me on multiple occasions they are upset that I am not allowing them to see you on the weekends. Can you please address this again as you said you did in your last email? So will I then we can have a equal parenting front which does not confuse them. They should not have to experience distress over our adult conversations. In the future I believe this discussion should be dismissed completely as they should not have to worry about it. Understand I am simply trying to keep our childrens best interest in mind.
This is horrible. BM should
This is horrible. BM should not be saying those things to the girls. She is PASing for sure, trying to make the girls think your DH doesn't want to see them. I hope the judge sees right through her.
I absolutely appreciate your
I absolutely appreciate your insight. Trust me, DH would love to send every word of it. It's MY reservations that I voice here .. mostly because I KNOW BM's reaction would be defensive and aggressive. It will get us nowhere.
He can put it on her to deny the joint meeting .. but what happens when she agrees and in that joint meeting, BM flat out tells the girls that it's up to daddy if they're allowed to spend every other weekend with her? Because that's what she's asking for in her custody modification. She wants to limit DH's time. Opening up and engaging the girls in this conversation, with or without her, doesn't help them. It only complicates it further.
And how does he go before a judge and say BM is putting them in adult roles, when he'd be proposing that exact thing by requesting having this meeting?
She doesn't currently interfere with the existing custody agreement. She just makes the skids feel like shit for going to see their dad. THAT'S what needs to stop.
This is totally an email from
This is totally an email from our BM- stop stealing our email!!! BM over here does the same thing. Sends emails that make no sense, usually not even talking about what DH was in his email. One discussion on a schedule turned into her saying SD was molested. Shes an fn nut job.
What I have learned over many years and many court hearings- just do not engage her. You want to go through everything and tell her why shes wrong and crazy but it won't do any good. You can not rationalize with a crazy person. (something I struggle with daily).
Just fwd to attny like you do. Keep email communication very minimal, especially during a hearing. Have your attorney do all communication. I know its expensive but much much better in the end.
What she is doing is ridiculous and so harmful to kids. Our BM did/does this for years, from as early as 3 and 4 now at 9 and 10 its still going. You may look into therapy for the LO's to help them with all of this. If its anything like our life it will only get worse. (especially if your DH gets what he is asking for in court).
DH and I have talked about
DH and I have talked about therapy for the girls. He's seriously considering it now and trying to find a therapist well versed in divorced families.
We know BM will fight it, or make it difficult. He's already told his lawyer that he's prepared to have it court-ordered if she insists on denying it.
Good. that is what we had to
Good. that is what we had to do. The CO has joint legal, but residential is all different in it. So BM threw quite a few fits about therapy, and we had several people ask us to leave. We eventually got it put in the court order that the kids are to attend and that she is to pay half (oh boy did she lose it with that one). Now the kids have someone consistent. And it really really helps them. Unfortunately for my sks it has been so long that they are scared to talk to the counselor about the serious stuff (bc bm says not to tell anyone or the kids will be taken away). Anyway, I digress.... get it in the order. It will help you.
That's a really good idea
That's a really good idea this would also help you in court if she tried to get more time with the girls.
I completely understand what
I completely understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that I don't expect BM to behave like you're saying she should. I expect her to be shitty and underhanded. I expect that meeting would be more harmful and confusing to the girls than anything.
So yes, truly committed parents should be able to do what you say. I don't think BM is capable of it. And do you run that risk in the presence of the kids who are already confused and stressed?
I have to agree with SM on
I have to agree with SM on this one... BM tries to get BF in on meetings from time to time they usually end up in fights and screaming with the kids. Since BF has refused it is possible to enforce such a conversation in each household. That and BM's will say they will say one thing then turn around address something completely different. Then you as a parent are forced to be civil and agree because the kids are sitting right there. In a high conflict situation it is asking for trouble and confusion with the skids.
While sending yet another
While sending yet another email may seem like the way to go, it may just stir the pot, which you don't want.
Maybe the best way to go is when SD calls and cries about her time with mom to just tell her you offered some weekends to mom and you and mom and the attorneys are trying to decide what weekends work best for Her schedule.
If she continues that "Mom said you won't give her time" than the easiest reply would be reassuring her that the offer was made but you will determinately call your attorney to make sure the communication is going the way it should and your offers are being relayed correctly.
Do the phone calls from the
Do the phone calls from the girls happen over a phone that has recording capabilities?? Perhaps your DH could record the phone calls? Personally, that makes me feel ick, but my SO has been recording phone calls (not lately though as BM no longer calls) as BM was attempting subtle PAS. This way IF BM brings this up in court (or even if your DH does) he will have evidence of what SD is actually saying, (IMO, most certainly sounds as though she is being PAS'ed and coached) that way BM can't deny or pass it off as misinterpretation on your DH's part.
We live in a dual party
We live in a dual party consent state .. meaning both parties have to be informed they are being recorded. I wonder how that works with a minor .. especially considering the second party to the conversation is the minor's parent?
Very interesting suggestion indeed ..