Sam44, sorry but I am going to be the first of many to tell you this relationship is doomed to fail.

You say it is killing you both to be apart. Then you say, you are not only saving and getting a loan to pay 6 months of his cs payments so he can move in, but he is not saving at all. Sam, really. He's not to keen to move in, and if you have to take a loan to trap him so ge has a no get out clause, that is so sad, you really have such little, well no respect for yourself. I feel terrible for you. On top of all that, he watches what you spend on your kids, and you are hiding money from him. There is nothing, nothing, nothing positive about this relationship for you.

Everything you have said about this relationship, describes the end of a relationship, where both parties are champing at the bit to get out the door. Not the beginning where both parties want in. This Sam is the honeymoon period. This is the very best it ever gets. It's all downhill from here. Why do you want to put yourself and your kids through this Sam. It's just not right.

He clearly has a personality disorder. These cannot be cured and NEVER go away. Look up narcissism or borderline personality disorder.

Finally Sam, get some help for yourself. Your have clear self esteem issues. I am not trying to be insulting or disrespectful to you by saying that. I sincerely believe it. No self respecting woman with an ounce of self esteem would allow herself to be treated like this, to be used in this way, let alone be so desperate to snare this user and abuser, she would take out a loan to make sure he had a no get out clause, and pay his child support.

Finally Sam, don't be at all surprised when you get this loan if he takes the money, takes flight and stiffs you with the loan.

I feel terrible for you, just terrible. I hope you use the money from this loan to get some help for yourself, not use it to help him. He doesn't want to be with you Sam if he did he would be there now. Wild horses couldn't keep him away. He wouldn't be waiting for your loan.

Are you married to this man? If not walk away, he thinks he's a nice guy but he sounds like Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde. You and your children deserve better than that.

Well, first of all,you don't Need to explain yourself in ending a relationship Sam. "I don't think this is working anymore" , end of conversation. He doesn't live with you so that makes it easier.

His self-esteem is built on him being a nice guy? No wonder its so fragile. He's not. He sounds like an abusive asshole. Screaming st you? Threatening to end the relationship if bring up a topic of conversation? Breaks your stuff and doesn't care? Always has money for another woman, but not for you? Breaks promises, or at the very least obviously doesn't care if he ever fulfills them to you? How is he a "nice guy"? You are being verbally and emotionally abused and now you want to take out a loan so that you can get your abuser to live with you...

I can't believe that this is the guy you want for yourself. You're walking on eggshells, your financially better off and helping to support him so he can support his ex, you're hiding things from him... How is him moving in going to be healthy for you or your children? Are they going to need to walk on eggshells so he doesn't verbally assault them and cuss at them? Are they going to need to learn to lie and hide things from him and their stepsibs so that he doesn't have a coronary that someone has something's His kids don't? Should your kids just get used to having their things broken? Are your kids really worth that little to you that you would make them live with this behavior?

IF he moves in with you, he's just going to attack you all the time with how you Made him move, how he Never gets to see his kids now, how he did all of this for you, why can't you just let him do what he wants? How can you pick at him for breaking things or yelling or sending even More money to BM - his kids need him more than ever since they neve see him now! And don't fool yourself, that extra money that goes to BM is Going to go up if he sees the kids less.

If they aren't already, separate your finances and end it with this guy. He doesn't love you. People that love you don't berate you, no matter how shitty their childhoods (really?? He's an adult, get from frigging therapy and get over it, don't use it as an excuse to be a jerk and throw the per tantrums), they don't break your things and not care, they don't break promises. If he Wanted to be with you, he'd be finding a way. HE would be saving, not giving you excuses. He is plainly telling you that you are less important than BM, his kids and himself. Not the relationship example I would personally want to be modeling to my kids...

You don't owe him anymore than "Goodbye." You do not have to justify your decision. You do need to tell him that it is over but that's it.

You don't have to listen to him berate you, etc.

Yes, what ARE you doing? This guy sounds like a real asshole and you should REALLY listen to your gut! It's TELLING you to step away from this mess and save your money, your sanity and your kids from this shit storm.
You want to put away money that YOU earn for HIS BM?!?! Do you even hear how CRAZY that sounds?
He sounds a lot like my sisters Ex. A real "nice guy" that has severe esteem issues and a really bad temper to boot. He was careless with everything, everything he touched he broke and he became frustrated with the slightest tasks.
He'd berate her and it was just so volatile that in the end my niece had to get therapy because of all the fucking dysfunction.
You sound like a really nice lady, please, find someone who will cherish you and enjoy your time with your 2 little boys, forget this guy.
As far as the food thing goes, it's normal. I do exactly the same thing. I wait until SD12 is on her way home before I go buy groceries so that MY Bio has 2 weeks of a fully loaded refrigerator because if not, she'll eat everything as if she had never seen food before. Don't let this guy move in with you and DONT take out any loans or get into debt to help him either. He wouldn't do it for you, because clearly, he hasn't saved a penny even after you already agreed he would. Let his actions SPEAK to you.

I'm sorry you're in this situation and I hate even more to say this, but you have to leave. At this point its for the best for everyone. It will never be 50/50 if you keep waiting for him to do as he says. I told my ex for YEARS actions speak louder than words and its true. 2 years saying he's going to move in? If he really wanted to, why hasn't he???

You were worried that if you end it with him he will think you are breaking up with him just because he broke your tent. REALLY! Let him think that. Who cares if he thinks that. Did he care what you thought when he broke not only the tent, but the bag as well. Does he care what you think when he breaks your stuff. Worse still, does he care what your kids think when he breaks their stuff.

Just tell him you have no money and the loans been knocked back. Tell him you won't be able to afford to pay HIS child support and you need money for car repairs or the dentist whatever and watch him end it for you. He doesn't love you, he's loves what you do for him. Stop bring his doormat, stop giving all and expecting nothing and watch him run.

You lived together for two years previously you said. Well clearly that didn't work, clearly it's not working this time either because you are miserable. It will never work with a man like this because you have to constantly sneak, lie, hide stuff and keep things from them to try and make them happy. You know what, even though you put in all that effort at great emotional, mental and physical cost to you, they're still not happy. They will never be happy. You will never be happy worse than anything else here, you want to inflict this lifestyle on your children. That is not only irresponsible, but selfish.

If this guy does have a personality disorder. It takes a might strong independent woman who has a good sense of self and has enough self respect to look after herself. Who can stand up for herself. If you weren't married to a guy when his disorder came to light, you would never set yourself up for this life. Why in Gods name would you set your kids up to become nervous anxious wrecks because of him.

I cannot believe you are willing to buy this man, willing to go into debt for him when he has nothing to offer you except heartache and debt and on top off that, your kids will suffer emotionally and financially because of your bad choices here. Yes, because of YOU and YOUR bad choices, your kids are going to suffer. Is this man worth it to you, if so, hand the kids over to their dad or the State. Give them a chance. You cannot blame this man for breaking their stuff, their minds or their hearts, you are the one desperately trying to buy him and drag him kicking and screaming into all your lives. I sincerely feel very, very sorry for you. I mean that. You must have such a low opinion of yourself. It's heartbreaking. Again, I'm not trying to be a smart mouth or have a go at you, I am genuinely concerned that you completely lack self esteem, this is not only bad for you, it's bad for your poor kids. No man is worth what he is putting you and your family through. Please talk to a professional, if you suffer anxiety, see your doctor, get some medication, if you do suffer anxiety, once you calm that down you may see this a whole lot differently. I am so sorry if what I said comes across as mean, it is not coming from meanness, it's coming from concern for your kids and you, get rid of him and who cares why he thinks you did it. He enjoys being a victim. That way he doesn't have to take responsibility for anything. It's never his fault. You know what. It never will be. Get away please.

I agree with the others. All you are doing by staying with him is teaching ALL the children involved that it is okay for a man to dominate and abuse. Is that what you want YOUR kids to learn?

As for his ex? Ever wonder how much HIS behavior had to do with shaping their current relationship? Maybe he was just as much of an ass to her. Although he'll tell you it was all her fault, and that she's a bitch. Mmmm... maybe not so much?

Sam,I finish as I started, this relationship is not good. You have to do what you have to do, and in your own time you will make your decision. I beg you please do not take out a loan to move this or any man into your bed. More importantly, remember this is not all about you. You have kids and as their mother your job doesn't end with food, clothes, water, education, healthcare and a roof over their heads. You have to take care of their mental and emotional wellbeing to.

The paper you both signed means nothing. It has no legal or financial consequences on either of you. My feeling on it is he doesn't know what he wants and he just bought himself some extra time, and he hopes some peace from your constant nagging him to move in. He has yet again given you a heap of reasons why he doesn't want to move in with you, any self respecting woman would let him go, you didn't, you started giving him time frames and options. Perhaps he came up with the document idea to keep having sex with you a while longer, or to shut you up, to stop you going on about moving in every time you are together, but whatever, he has made it clear time and time again. He doesn't want to move in. He may actually just be riddled with guilt about leaving the ex, his kids, and his affair with you, but whatever it is he is NOT READY to move in with you. Stop pressuring him. If you loved him, truly loved him, you would back off and let him sort himself out. I think you are so terrified of losing him you are pushing this. Sam, moving him is no guarantee of keeping him. In fact moving him in while he feels like thus is an absolute guarantee the relationship won't last. He's not ready Sam.

Please listen to EBU.

That man does not want to live with you. Stop begging/trying to force him to do something he clearly doesn't want to do.

You have to love and respect yourself more than you love him.

Sam as I said before we all do things in our own time. I don't like this, I have a bad feeling about this, but ultimately only you can decide what is best for you and your kids as he is now and always has done what he believes to be in the best interest of his kids all this time.

I hope you do not finish up devastated by this man, I really do. If he breaks your heart, it will hurt your kids too.

But know if he leaves. If he gets his dream job, paid millions a year, buys a great house and flashy car for cash, Sam, if he feels guilt and misses his kids, he will still be miserable and unhappy. He will cause you to be unhappy to, which by default means your kids will be unhappy.

Don't give him the option to leave Sam. He can't handle the guilt. You leave. You tell him your stepping out till he gets his life in order. You let him go, if he loves you Sam, really loves you, he will be there. For your sake, more importantly for your kids, find the inner strength to let go Sam.

Well I'm not going to say too much. I know your hoping against hope he comes. I'm hoping against hope he doesn't. Live with a man like him will not be easy, or for the most pleasant. You may feel that what your mother went through was only on special occasions. It wasn't. Sure he may have blown up on special occasions, but the rest of the year, he still had that resentment bubbling inside. Their life together would not have been what it could have been if he had not been hanging on to his guilt and resenting your mother for choices he made.

Is it possible for you to talk you your mother about this.

I really don't like this guys personality type. Even with therapy this doesn't change. You may find yourself constantly walking on egg shells in this relationship and yes, your kids suffer for that, you will find yourself telling them, don't do this, don't say that, keep your vouce down, and so on because you don't won't want them upsetting the poor boyfriend who's having a bad life. The kids don't get to live in a happy relaxed home, they too are always on edge, this impacts on how they turn out. I don't know if you were living with your mum and her partner but if you were at the same ages as you kids, think back as to how you felt on his resentment days, but ask your mum how she lived through all his other resentment days, the ones you didn't see. I doubt she would recommend this life for you and her grandchildren.

You need a relationship build on rock solid ground to be happy, not egg shells.

Whatever happens, I hope you make it through okay, more importantly that your kids make it through happy and emotionally healthy.

Just an after thought. They say children learn what they live. In other words what we say and teach them is over ridden by the way we live our lives. They will see our fears, lack of self esteem, weaknesses, strengths and values and so on. You are repeating what you lived. You are following in your mothers footsteps. Your kids will follow on in yours. Please, please, please, give them a better example than this. Currently the door of opportunity has been sprung right open for you and the kids. You have been given an opportunity to stop living your mothers life, and prevent your kids from repeating yours. Break it off, tell your kids a wishy, washy maybe i'll come when the grass is green, or when the snow falls or when I have some money or a job if I can get a loan, if, if, if, if, if man, is not for you or them. You need a strong independent decisive man, not an undecided, well maybe if type. Show them you and they are worth more than that. Break it off. Who knows, maybe mr indecisive will suddenly become the man you want when he is free to make his own choices. I know you think he's free to do that now because you say you have told him he can leave. Lets be honest, that was not setting him free, that was piling on more guilt to try and force his hand. If you really want to force his hand. YOU WITH ALL THE CLASS YOU CAN MUSTER, should just tell him you understand this is all too much for him, and with love walk away, really walk away, no matter how many what ifs he throws at you, just walk, tell him you both need to clear your heads and take a break from this for a while, a good long while. no calls, no texts, no emails, no communication, a complete break. No guilt, no tears, no animosity, just let it go. Not for him, but for you and the kids.

Look, you've been doing it your way for two years now. It's not working, it never will, try letting it all go. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE. Your mother was miserable on more than special occasions you can bank on that. But on those special occasions I wonder how scared she was each time, that this time he would leave. She like you, would have been walking on egg shells in fear, not on solid ground in love.

Sam, now read what you have just written in that letter and see what I and others here will see. He's playing you.

Sending you 2 hours away means he can safely see you without being caught. He can safely go home to his wife without being caught. He has put a nice little bit of distance between you and her. Can you trust him anymore than she could.

You have done everything to make this mans life easier. He has in return turned yours upside down, and made it harder. Your children are collateral damage in this. Not only did you take them away from their dad, you took them away from family and friends, from their home and their school, then you went out to work and they lost you too. His kids, all good no one uprooted their home and security. After doing all of this to you and your kids, he has spent two years ducking and weaving and making excuses as to why he can't move back in with you.

He has treated you and the kids pretty badly Sam, at the same time he's made sure his wife and kids are okay. That kind of love is not love at all for you, it's love of self, he's in love with himself and uses his kids as an excuse to do what he wants to do. Stay right where he is.

I have to agree with Sam on this one. It is not our place to judge. But it is interesting that people who do feel superior enough to make judgements on these situations are in the majority women if not all women, and interestingly they attack the woman. Theory being that she was some sort of siren who lured this poor male victim of hers out of his happy marital bed. Thereby giving the man in the picture a free pass to cheat on his wife. Because he is a man, and that's okay, it's not really his fault.

It bloody well is his fault., if he took vows to love and honour his wife, then he has an affair THAT IS HIS FAULT. It is not the fault of the lazy, fat, useless, dirty, wife who never really loved him, and he was too good for anyway. It is not the fault of the beautiful young temptress, IT IS HIS FAULT. Anyone male or female who has an affair and stays in the marriage, well, as much as I can understand marriages breaking down, sleeping with someone else and going home to bed with your spouse is the most dishonest selfish act, it is the ultimate betrayal.

No one, male or female in a happy loving marriage looks sideways at anyone else, let alone has an affair. People who have affairs were unhappy or dissatisfied in their marriages long before a third party came along. It happens. But if it happens then the right thing to do would be to clean up the mess you have made at home before making another mess. Either leave the marriage, or leave the new partner, running both is the disgusting part. Lying to everyone is the disgusting part. Leading someone on, that is selfish and unforgivable. In the case where the person you are playing with has kids and you keep the lies up, allowing someone else's kids to suffer whilst protecting your own, that is the act of a self centred, narcissistic low life prick.

People may think she is getting what she deserves. I think she is being abused and like everyone caught in an abusive situation it can take years to get out of it. I think she is a victim, I think her kids are bigger victims, the biggest victim of all is this mans wife. When the karma bus collects this guy and it will, it's not going to be pretty.

All that being said is generalising and none of my business, I am just looking at the mess Sam is in and would like to see her get out f it, how she got into it in the first place is as I said, none of my business.

No and he won't post here or anywhere, guys like him know it all, he doesn't need advice from anyone.

However Sam is posting here, so she is at least admitting she feels something is not quite right. You can help people who admit there is a problem.

But we can only express our opinions, we can understand her feelings, but we can't feel them, she has to carry those herself. We can only hope in time she will realise that getting away from this prick is her only chance of being happy. Even if he moved in today, he would be such a guilty dad he would make her miserable. She cannot win, he is making her miserable because he won't move in, and he would make her miserable if he did. But we each have to do things in our own time. Hopefully Sam by reading what people think here and reading the stories of others on here will sooner rather than later be able to let him go. He has treated his wife, Sam and all the children very badly. That is the kind of man he is. He doesn't care who suffers, as long as he gets what he wants. Losing him would be like winning the lottery for Sam.

Your welcome Sam. I am glad the kids are I happier where you are and in better schools. Also their dad moving closer to them in a month or so is good to know.

You make me laugh when you say he is only abusive about 5% of the time, the rest he's the man of your dreams. Now that's like saying your a little bit pregnant. Abuse is abuse Sam. If they abuse you once they will do it again. Even if he packs up and moves in, he has an abusive personality. It will continue. Abuse doesn't have to be physical. I think emotional abuse can be worse, the bones and bruises heal, but the emotional damage from abuse changes you. You have no self esteem, no confidence, you suffer anxiety, and walk on egg shells so much so your anxiety levels are so high you are constantly stressed, this all leads to physical illness or depression.

When I married my dh, he was estranged from his children. He was a lovely, kind, gentle man who wanted nothing but the best for me. Once his daughter found out we were building a new house she decided that if he could build a house he could buy her a new car. Her first phone call to him in years was to demand he buy her a car. Now, we didn't have spare cash, my own car was about 10 years old and very basic, she was a live at home working adult, I said no, we can't afford it. I also added he had two other kids, I had three kids, how could we buy one a car. What about the other 5. That was the first time he ever so much as raised his voice to me, but it wasn't the last.

My dh was so desperate to get his daughter back into his life he was more than happy to do it on her terms. Dad buy me a car, dad take money out of your superannuation and pay off my loans, dad buy me a washing machine, dad buy me a fridge, dad boyfriend and I are buying a house, you can mow the lawns, we work all week (so did he and he was 61 when she told him this), dad I am your daughter, you should do this for me, dad I am your daughter you should give me, give me, give me. Along with this, she treated him like shit. She had not one ounce of respect for him, let alone love. She hated, hated with a passion the fact that he was happy and she wasn't having it. She for 8 years did everything in her power to destroy our marriage, and we fought over her and only her for the whole 8 years. He yelled Sam when we fought about her, he jumped to attention and demanded I did to, when princess of evil wanted something, he allowed her to insult, isolate, humiliate and ignore me. I was made to feel like an unwanted, unwelcome leper in my own home whenever miss high and mighty would come here. My husband was not abusive emotionally, verbally or physically when she didn't visit or didn't call him, he was his same old self whenever she wasn't around. That Sam, was still abuse. The effects of his 5% of abuse don't go away the other 95% of the time, you are always on tender hooks waiting for the next time they get upset. That is abuse. It eventually takes its toll on your physical and mental health.

Be very aware Sam. Even if he did move in, his guilt will cause you problems, his abuse no matter how spasmodic is abuse, it will never end as long as his kids are in his life. When his kids get older, and start demanding cars, phones, college fees, etc., and he wants to pay for them, but not for yours, you will once again be fighting, and YOU will once again be the bad guy.

My husbands daughter had her first child two years ago, the nuclear weapon she carried in her uterus to get daddy back. When the child was born she told daddy if he wanted to see it he had to leave me. Now, he didn't want to leave me, but he wanted to make her happy, did he fight with her over that, no he fought with me over what she said, over her ultimatum, because if I just shut up and put up with her crap like he did, she would be happy, and everything would be okay. This man felt I should allow her to break me, to insult, humiliate and ignore me, to treat me like dog poo on the souls of her feet, to make her happy. That is abuse San, and this man treated me like gold when she wasn't around. That is actually worse, the ups and downs, the thinking it's all good, he's got it now, he sees what she is doing, only to find he'd get angry over the same stuff the next week, and again with me because I should have put up with it. They are not just abusing you 5% of the time, it is all the time because inside you hold the fear and dread of when it's going to happen again. It's no life for you or your kids.

These men are weak, and they are selfish. They say they love their kids, it's for their kids. It's not about their kids, it's about them.

We haven't seen his princess of evil for two years, he is on antidepressants and in counselling. He knows what she is like, he knows he cannot ever have a life with her, she hates him, but she is his daughter, he would keep giving and puting up with her disrespect abuse and hate to his grave, he'd keep trying to make her like him if he thought I'd accept it. I won't, I want nothing more to do with her ever again. He stayed in the marriage because HE was better off with me than he was with her, he knows that and he chose himself and his well being over her in the end, that Sam was not choosing me, it as I said was choosing himself. This is what they do, they look after number 1 and that is themselves.

To this day, as much as he tries to hide it, I believe he still thinks its all my fault, that if I had just accepted it, she would be happy and he'd have her in his life, and he'd be happy, I am the one in the wrong for ending the abuse, not her for dishing it out, not him for allowing it, me.

I am 61 Sam, I'm not raising children through this, and I have finally come to a point whereby I have enough self esteem to know that I do not deserve to be abused even 1% of the time. He now knows I know that, hence he has crumbed, he's not coping, he doesn't know how to cope unless he's bullying someone to get his own way. He is in therapy. Is this the kind of drama you want to bring into your life, it never ends Sam. It never ends. He is 65 and he is still struggling.

Yes, I know, you love him, he loves you, no one understands, no one has ever been in love the way you two are we don't understand. Sorry Sam, as unique as you think your love is, it's not. You two are not the only people who have loved this way. We do understand.

I would love you to walk away, have NO contact with him at all move on with your life, don't sit around waiting for him, and see what happens. My fear is you don't trust in his love enough to do that. That fear, that lack of trust in his love that you feel is with you 100% of the time, even in the good moments its pushed way back in your mind, but it's still there, that is abuse, emotional abuse. You are being abused 100% of the time, we just don't recognise it, when you do, you can take steps to change it. You need to take control of your life. Right now, your really letting him take control, you are letting him run the show, waiting for him to choose you. Stuff that, you deserve better, you choose you, and choose your kids and don't be just someone else on his list till when, if or maybe he gets around to sorting himself out. Life is far to short for this crap, far to short.

I didn't read all of your responses, but the whole tent thing sounds EXACTLY like my husband used to treat me. Read "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" By Lundy Bancroft (I think). Your man is verbally abusive and it is extremely unlikely for him to ever change. Abusive men don't change because they have their women trained and they thus continue to benefit from being abusive. He has you trained to let things slide and not speak up. That is part of his abuse tactic...you both know if you speak up, he will go off ten times worse...so you don't which allows him to be an ass with minimal repercussions.

Feeling the need to lie about what YOU bought YOUR kids so he doesn't get upset is another indicator of abuse. He will throw a fit, you will feel guilty, he will get his way and you won't want to buy your kids things so he doesn't throw a fit.

Abuse is a vicious cycle...he will be "mister perfect" so you forget about the last abusive encounter so you will be all happy and not want to leave him. See that for what it is...MANIPULATION to keep you, that isn't love! The cycle will not only continue, it will get worse and you or your kids could get hurt. You don't want your son to grow up thinking your man is how he should treat his future woman and you certainly don't want a daughter to grow up thinking it is acceptable to let a man treat you like dirt.

Get our now while you can, before you get hurt and your kids get damaged further (abuse is severely damaging to children, even if they only witness a tiny bit that is not directed at them).

Oh Sam, read what Optimistic me has just told you. She is 1000% spot on Sam, 1000% the advice she has just given you in a few seconds could take you 20 or 30 years to learn. She's been there done that, she knows what she's talking about. Read that book.

Optimistic me, for some reason I am worried sick about Sam, your words are wise, true and correct, thank you for sharing. I pray she listens.

Sam you can buy this book on Amazon, or maybe try your local library. Please at least read it.

Sam44,
I am going to suggest something different, take the focus off this guy and put it onto you because all you have control over is you.

I'd suggest that you seek some counseling. You're in this relationship, apparently waiting for this guy to move in while second guessing what seems pretty evident, that this relationship, whether it's you two together or just one of you, is not good.

I think counseling for you will help you more than anything other advise that could be given.

Make sense?

Optimistic you summarised it in a nutshell. I so don't want her following down our trails. I don't think Sam is stupid, just blinded by love, and haven't we all been there. Hopefully we can help her to see where this loving another above yourself and putting his happiness above your own ends. If she could only learn, love is about caring for and giving to each other. Not one person giving and the other taking. That always ends badly. I don't want her to go there.

I don't think step downs comment was meant to be harsh. I just think she meant for SAMs sake it would be better for sam to send him packing. I think a lot of us on here are old enough to know we all do things in our own time. Step down knows that and I think what she said wasn't meant to be mean, it was simply she like a lot of us would like SAMs situation to change and we know the power lies with Sam, now we have to just sit back and wait for Sam to know it.

I have told dh he was verbally and emotionally abusive. He said, bullshit, you only think that. See, right there, he totally dismissed my thoughts and feelings as bullshit. Now do that once or twice or here and there people can disagree on some things. But do that each and every time that's abusive. Verbal and emotional abuse destroys a persons self esteem it can lead to PTSD.

He always denied everything about his behaviour and his daughters behaviour and my feelings were always bullshit.

He has the last few months however, since he has been on medication, never said my feelings were bullshit, can't say he says, really, i am so sorry you feel that way, I understand why you would. But he is not dismissive either. He will never be able to give the appropriate responses to anyone's feelings, he is totally lacking in empathy, and incapable of that. But if he can learn others have feelings that he doesn't understand, but that makes them no less real, that will be a huge step for him.

You do need to have the conversation BEFORE he moves in though.

Sam, I know you are determined to go ahead with this, no one can stop you. You think your love is different, what happened to me, to others on this site won't happen to you, but we all felt we had the same love Sam. You are not unique, others really have felt the same way you two do. So, that being said, watch out for the mental and emotional health of your kids, they deserve that. You owe them that. Remember, contracts can and have been broken. Look at yourselves and all of us here, all broken contracts, marriage contracts. So no matter what he agrees to, it's all pie in the sky, his actions are the proof of the pudding. If it all works out for you and your kids, wonderful. I hope for your sake and for your kids it does. I sincerely mean that. If it doesn't, well you know where this site is if you need understanding and support.

#3 on the list is interesting. You both know that he feels guilty for the choices he has made to be with you. Not only are TRYING to force him not to speak about those feelings, you're twisting it to make him think those chocies were made for him not you.

You're doing the exact thing many SMs here say their husband's do to them.

There isn't a list long enough to remove the guilt he feels for hurting his kids. Moving away from him kids and living with yours full time, will just increase his guilt.

Sam44 has observations of her behavior that is not favorable. She says she feels her behavior is, using her words, "sick." That has nothing to do with the guy. Even if she were doing these things because she's pissed at the guy, that's wrong, she knows it and has said as much.

When I read this I saw someone in a lot of pain. I think Sam needs to understand her pain and address why, if everything she has said is 100% spot on, she would allow herself to be in that situation.

He is a symptom of an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

Yep, and maybe he is the lesson Sam needs to learn.

Your instincts are right. You may with your new insight learn to manage this relationship whereby everytime he is emotionally and verbally abusive to you, you put him back in his box. That Sam, is as good as a relationship with a man like this as you will get. You managing a man who is "unable" to change, "incapable" of change.

I am 61 Sam, like you 5000 times smarter, like you allowed this to happen. I saw his insecurities, I thought he had a lot of Italian and Catholic guilt. I thought with love, understanding and compassion he would be fine.

Now, I see, this is a personality disorder, this cannot be cured, I can manage the way it impacts on me, I can stand up for myself, I can detach from his stupid comments. Before we married he hid this side of himself, I never saw it. It only came out once he had contact with his daughter about 14 months after we were married.

For me what do I do, ignore the for better or worse, in sickness or health part of my vows and walk. I'd love to. But before I do, I will try this managing his disorder thing until I cannot cope or before i become to physically and mentally exhausted to continue. But I will never allow him to put me back in that place you are now, I will never allow myself to be eaten alive by his personality ever again. I see it all very clearly now. . If I had been blessed the way you have been, if I had seen this as you have seen it before marriage, no way in hell would I have married him. That Sam does not mean I don't love him, I do. That is why I am trying. You have no idea how much I loved this man. To this day though, he still tries those little punishments, like your bf's not coming for breakfast to punish you etc., he is 65 Sam. Let me tell you, warn you, beg you to listen, they actually do become worse with age. Is the life you want for yourself. It will be you Sam, your love won't change him, all you can hope for is to change you. Is that right, should you have to change yourself in order to marry someone. Of course not. When two people choose to marry, they are supposed to be accepting each other for who they are, not hoping and actively trying to change each other and themselves in the desperate hope that they can get on and have some peace.

I so wish I had seen what you see before marriage. I would never accept a life of managing another persons abuse, you are taking on another full time job. Why would any young, beautiful, independent woman put this noose around her neck and jump into a relationship with a man like this. If you are learning new tricks, new ways of manipulating him now, and make no mistake, that is what you are doing, learning how to manipulate him and his incurable disorder, you will be continuing to do this till the end. My experience is that everyday they try something new, everyday you have to deal with it, make choices, confront it, ignore it, preempt it and decide whether to do something or say something or change something to avoid it. Hiding your purchases or lying about the cost, that is always going to be there, I can see for me it will take years and years if ever to get around that one, and he still snoops around even though he knows I am stronger now, he still has a go.

By the time you are over this, you will no longer be the young beautiful woman you are today. You will no longer have the opportunities you have today, your working life will be coming to an end, retirement looming and yes Sam still living with this, still writing lists and contracts and hiding purchases trying to keep the peace and him calm. Good Lord Sam, WHY? Because you love him. The physical, mental and emotional exhaustion will, I guarantee, blow out that special spark you now feel, you may at some level always love him, but when you've given till you can't give any more, the special spark goes out. It has to so you can turn on the flame of self preservation.

Don't choose this for yourself and your kids Sam. You can and do deserve better, you can have a normal happy married life with a man who is capable of loving you. Why choose a life with a man with an illness who is incapable of truly loving you, who's first priority is getting what he can for himself, and he is willing to punish you to get it, to withhold his love and affection, to bully you, to yell and scream at you, to do whatever it takes to get it, EVEN PLAY NICE AND BE THE MAN YOU WANT HIM TO BE, to get it, to keep the relationship. They cannot sustain the playing nice Sam, he just cannot, they are not hard wired that way.. He is reeling you in, and casting you out. That is his way, your life will be years and years of him reeling you in with his charm, then just as quickly, casting you out with his punishments. Your life will be you in constant training on how to manipulate him and this life of chaos you are choosing.

Yes lovn life, that is exactly what kind of a life Sam is heading into. It is exhausting, it is constant. The man of SAMs dreams has a personality disorder, he can't help that, he will never see it. It is part of his illness. He thinks he is normal, so he cannot change.

My own dh has it. He is on medication and seeing a counsellor. He is trying hard to watch himself. Can he keep it up, who knows. It's been 8 months, a huge milestone for him, it was never more than 4 to 6 weeks prior to the medication. But it is very easy to see it is a struggle for him. Does my dh now see he has a problem, no, not really, he knows I have a problem, I think the counsellor is just trying to teach him how to behave, and he may in parrot fashion learn that, but he will never really know. He has no empathy. He just doesn't get it. It is a very hard life. Trying not to destroy his dignity yet at he same time keep my sanity. The only way I have of surviving the narcissist is to look after me and put me first. This is a job and not a marriage.

Even after her lists and the document he signed nothing has changed. He just proved that with the breakfast stunt. Reeled her in with his narcissistic charm, agreed with her, promised her, signed off with her, played the game and said all the right things, everything Sam wanted to hear. Then, bam, first opportunity he got she didn't fall into his rapturous arms at 6am and bam, out comes the punishment. I'll show you, my mummy will give me breakfast. This wasn't just about the hug Sam.

Sam then enters the game with her response and off we go again till the next time.

Not a life I would knowingly choose, especially if I had young children. I have grandchildren, I have never left my grandchildren alone with him. I can't. He says stupid things to them, torments them and hasn't a clue of the long term mental health problems he could cause them. He has ruined his own children with his crap. I now know why all three of his children have issues. They would have lived a life living on egg shells with this man. I am talking about things like always looking for the kids to build up his ego, they are 1, 2, 3, and 5. He expects them to constantly tell him how much they love him, he will withhold a lollie or a toy, until they say I love you pa, telling them he will play with them if they say they love him the best, and so forth. His obsessive compulsive disorder causes him to be at them all the time with watch your drink, your making a mess, your dropping crumbs etc., stupid annoying things that are constant and like a dripping tap, drive you mad. That's another job you will pick up one day Sam. As I said before it doesn't get better, it gets worse.