Am I overreacting?
Prior to the initial custody hearing, SO method of discipline was corporal, it is how he and I both were raised, and probably how he would still discipline his children if BM had not told the judge the children were "deathly afraid of their father because he abuses them" (SO was give custody and BM given EOW, so I believe the judge saw through her abuse claim).
No matter your opinion on physical or corporal punishment, let me just say it kept SS in line and resulted in less headache for teachers and us at home.
When first given this order for no physical discipline, SO and I discussed the possible implications once SS6 recognized SO could no longer do as he wished. SO figured it would take a while and maybe SS6 was old enough to just manage his behavior on his own. Two weeks later, SS6 comes home with a note from the teacher saying he was st school punching other children without cause, which SS6 admitted to. Obviously, SO was wrong.
Since that time, SO has tried to come up with alternative discipline, but for the strong willed SS6, he turns most punishments into a game (e.g. when told to sort SS6 and SS8 laundry, SS6 made up a song and dance to go along...no longer a punhsiment....when told he could not ride his bike, but had to be outside with the rest of the family, SS6 found a scrap piece of wood, gave it a name and personality and sat there playing with the piece of wood for at least 30 minutes....no longer a punishment).
Anyway, last week, SS6 got a referral for threatening to beat up a kid who told on SS6 for some behavior issue. The teacher came to me after school and said "SS6 told me, 'you and my dad cannot do anything to me because my mom (BM) told me she has a paper from the court to say that no one can do anything to me'"
I was disgusted and embarrassed to say the least. My question is this, "is this something that should be brought up? If so, to whom?
Personally I feel as if BM is setting SS up to fail in life if he has the attitude that no one can do anything to him because of a court paper that she has. And might I add, that statement is not true! If the darn kid gets expelled or suspended or has to pay fines for behavior guess who gets stuck with the responsibility for care? Well it sure as heck isn't BM! And given that she is now 5 months behind on court ordered child support, any financial repercussions will not be felt by her.
But I'd love to hear other opinions or comments.
Thanks for that. We have done
Thanks for that. We have done that before, no television, earlier bedtime, etc, we thought it was working fine until one day I picked up the kids and SS6 came out and rather than saying "I got a red for behavior today" he walked right up to me and said "you don't have to say it, I already know, I don't get a snack or dessert, I can't watch television and I can't play the Wii" he laughed and then walked off to talk to a friend.
Once again, what we thought was a punishment was "just the way it is" to him.
It started off with "not
It started off with "not keeping hands, feet or other objects to himself" (hitting, kicking, throwing things, etc)
The teacher moved him to a spot in the classroom so that he's no longer near enough to anyone to have this be an issue. At that point, the issue changed to "refusing to stop talking during instruction, hindering others from instruction by yelling across the classroom"
I do believe there may be a more serious issue because a lot of times his really bad days start off with small infractions, for example, the teacher tells SS 4 times to stop talking and do his work, which leads to a color change to yellow. Because of the change, SS throws a tantrum, hitting or kicking, etc, in the middle of the class and has to go to another teacher. SS comes back to class angry, yells at a kid who says something to him, gets his color changed, etc, etc, until the day is finally over and he ends up with a Red.
Thanks for that link.
Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, the court order has a "temporary injunction against using physical or corporal punishment of the subject children" written as clear as day.
I'm not even trying to argue that we should be using physical punishment. I just want to know if I am making too big a deal of what BM has done/is doing.
Oh and Not that SO would ever go back to physical or corporal punishment. But I think it is very convenient that BM would fail to mention to SS that the court's injunction is only "temporary".
I would do WHATEVER I could
I would do WHATEVER I could do to that kid to make his life miserable for his atrocious behavior...he would WISH for spankings after I was thru with him!!! }:)
In a different post, I talked
In a different post, I talked about the alternative that we have come up with for addressing his behavior that involves providing "bucks" that can be cashed in for special things for good days and taking away privileges for other days. The purpose for this post was to ask whether we should mention to anyone that BM has poisoned SS to believe no one can do anything to him.
But since you felt the need to attack regarding SO choice of discipline, I will respond.
I never said SO relied solely on corporal punishment, it was just the way he was raised. I believe part of parenting is first doing what your parents did if you feel that it worked. He feels it worked for him, so that's what he went with.
Neither of us believes physical punishment is the answer to any and all problems and even when used it was reserved for the largest of infractions rather than just an all the time thing. When I was growing up, if I came home with a note that said I'd decided everyone was getting punched in the stomach for no reason at all, I'd better have worn my thick jeans, because I was sure to experience some pain for the pain I'd caused. But I digress...
Never did I say I was upset about SS singing and dancing while doing chores or playing with a stick. Actually I thought it was quite funny and made the comment to SO afterward "no matter what we do, he cannot be kept down for very long". If you ask me, it shows some form of resilience. Which, I believe, has both pros and cons. We don't necessarily want to rain on SS parade, but there comes a time when you want the kid to feel some sort of remorse for behavior, otherwise, there is no reason for him not to go out and do the same thing again, despite your best efforts at managing the behavior.
I didn't go back and read my post before writing this response to you, so I cannot remember whether I mentioned that we have visited every website, checked out nearly every book and talked to many different forms of counselors/specialists about ways to help SS6 manage and we have largely come up with nothing. And just when we thought we had a working system in place, SS6 flies off the deep end, threatens to beat up some kid for "tattling", gets a referral with a threat of expulsion and then drops the biggest bomb, "that his mom told him no one can do anything to him because the court said so" not only that he told his dad later that night "I know that is why you only do things like make me not watch tv, and write sentences or not have a snack because you can't do anything else".
If you ask me, that last part alone is enough to suggest BM has successfully undermined SO because she's taken the sting out of it all. He's basically said "I know you would like to do something more to punish me, but you can't and I'm happy with that".
So, what would you suggest? The system is working fine for SS8, but I know, different kid, different needs. We feel we've tried most things, just when we start to see clear skies, the storm rolls in and it doesn't let up.
Sentences. Have dad or you
Sentences. Have dad or you grab a piece of paper and write a sentence at the top of it. Then sit his happy butt at the table, with a pencil, a stack of papers and make him write over and over and over and over.
If it is messy, it gets ripped up and he starts over. If it is misspelled it gets ripped up and started over (no reason for misspellings since you and dad gave him the first sentence to copy.
Or make him copy his spelling words 100 times each if its a school infraction.
^^^Did that with my daughter.
^^^Did that with my daughter. Worked like a charm. She hated it!
Did that too, earlier this
Did that too, earlier this week in fact, he didn't mind. He wrote the sentences, I ripped up a few pages, he finished the page asked for a new one. I gave him a new page, he kept right on going.
You have a special kind of
You have a special kind of pain in the ass to deal with there! So sorry. I wish I could give you sage, sound advice but yeah, ummmm, I got nuthin!
EXACTLY! We are currently
EXACTLY! We are currently looking for a children and family counselor that we can afford to see on a regular basis because I believe as BM's "baby" she is doing an effective job of turning him sour. When he is having a good day, he's the most loving, helpful, entertaining kid you've ever seen. But when she gets her hands on him he comes back a horrible mess.
Part of what makes things so bad is that SS8 is old enough and pays enough attention to have figured some things out on his own based on things he remembers from before I was in the picture. I believe BM knows that SS8 is slightly aware of things that don't make sense or add up, so she devotes more time to breaking SS6.
I honestly feel bad for SS6 on some of his bad days. Which is why I'm trying to figure how to get around what BM puts into his head. He needs discipline, but as long as BM is doing what she is doing, I am struggling to see how to move in a more positive direction.
I don't mean to sound defeated, but we are struggling and the really sad part is that BM has been so inconsistent, I would not be surprised if she were gone tomorrow leaving us to deal with the mess she has created.
"when told to sort SS6 and
"when told to sort SS6 and SS8 laundry, SS6 made up a song and dance to go along...no longer a punhsiment....when told he could not ride his bike, but had to be outside with the rest of the family, SS6 found a scrap piece of wood, gave it a name and personality and sat there playing with the piece of wood for at least 30 minutes....no longer a punishment"
I'm not sure I understand the problem here .. if the punishment is to fold laundry, and that gets done, why does it matter if he's singing a song while doing it? If the punishment is not being allowed to ride his bike, and he's not riding his bike, how is it no longer a punishment?
Do you just want the kid to be miserable/suffer? I don't think you can blame the kid for finding something else to occupy himself through his punishment .. but it sounds like you do need to find something more effective to have him do or take away.
My feelings are that if he
My feelings are that if he has made a game out of what was supposed to be the punishment, then it is no longer a punishment. Whether he cries or groans about it is not really my concern.
SO and I do want to have some form of punishment that makes him think twice before repeating the offense. If he's in that moment and all he can remember is the silly song he came up with the last time that he hit someone or got out of hand at school, what's to stop him from doing it again?
Here's my take. If you want
Here's my take. If you want him punished and not playing....then don't let him play. Instead of "no riding your bike" you should have told him "go stand facing that corner". Folding clothes isn't a punishment, its a chore. Do you really want to have him thinking that simple chores are some deviststing punishment?
If he's in trouble why are you allowing him to go run off to chat and play with a friend? When my kids/skids are in trouble they sit on the ends of their beds with their hands folded in their laps to think about their behavior. If its a school issue or we are out and about they aren't even allowed to speak in the car on the way home. They are on total and complete lock down for however long we say they are. No TV no snacks no drinks other than water.
He doesn't care about your punishemtn because you haven't actually part nished him yet.
^^^^THIS^^^^ I completely
^^^^THIS^^^^ I completely agree.
If SS is being punished, he should be made to stand there and NOT do anything. Not play with a stick, nothing.
It needs to be a punishment. Like standing still with arms straight out and hold a can in each hand.
Or make him dig a hole, then made to put all the dirt back in the hole.
Or like someone else said, write 100 sentences.
You have to find something he hates to do, and THAT is his punishment.
Honestly, I try to stay out
Honestly, I try to stay out of disciplining, except to enforce whatever SO puts into place if SO is not around to do so himself. Do I believe the punishments could be more stringent, absolutely. Have I mentioned this to SO, yupp. You know what I get back from him, "I try to limit the punishments because I don't want our house to become the place that he hates because he has to be here most of the time and then he goes to BM and everything is all flowers, butterflies and candy".
I do see the issue there. But as I am not the parent, my hands are somewhat tied.
SO has done the "stand in the corner" and SS cried the first 2 or 3 times (happened 2 or 3 times in the same week), but now, SS just stands there, says nothing, when talked to afterward about behavior he'll "say what he needs to say" to appease SO and then come home the next day with the same report of poor behavior.
As I mentioned, we tried sentences and SS just shrugged them off.
I think the counseling that someone mentioned earlier is our best bet because far as something he hates to do, what do you do when you try 100 things, he complains at first and then all of a sudden he says "I love doing this" or it becomes his "favorite thing to do" to every single one of the things you tried? Sure, we could "try 100 things more" but I ran out of ideas back on number 50, we're flying by the seat of our pants here
I have no problem with a
I have no problem with a parent spanking a kid who is out of line, as long as it doesn’t cross the line to abuse. I have no kids of my own so I can’t say for sure what I will do. I do not spank my SD because she is not my kid. DH doesn’t spank her either and I have no clue what BM does with her.
My best friend is a single mom of 3 boys. Whenever they get out of hand (which for 3 boys, is pretty often), she spanks them. IT DOESN’T WORK. They don’t even care. They get their butt smacked, then go right back to doing what they want to do.
I think the issue has more to do with the effectiveness of the parent. My Godsons know my friend is going to smack their butt and that is it. Now SD, she doesn’t get smacked (at least in our house) but she is very well-behaved because we have pretty much laid down the law with her. If she is “bad”, she gets sent to her room. Honestly, if I look at her the wrong way she will cry and I have never touched the girl lol. I don’t think the punishment has to be corporal to work, and sometimes corporal punishment doesn’t even work.
I think you should find something the kid likes and take it away. SD doesn’t have a certain thing she plays with like most boys do, that’s why she gets sent to her room. She doesn’t like being up there alone so it’s an effective punishment. There has to be something that will work for you!
So the issue of discipline
So the issue of discipline seems to have gotten everyone riled up, but I really just wanted to know if what BM has told SS is something that should be brought up in court, to the case worker or just ignored?
Oh, honey, I know your pain.
Oh, honey, I know your pain. My parents are in the same situation. Let me give you some advice, go back to court quickly as possible and get that order thrown out! Bring in evidence of his behavior at school and tell the judge just the threat of spankings had kept him in line before but now BM has told him you can't follow thru with the threats.
My parents are raising my nephew, now age 15, since he was 2. The BM, my sis, got him when he was 5 for three years. During that time our bio dad abused my nephew. My parents took them to court and won, with the court saying nobody could touch him again. By the time he was 10 he had it figured out that nobody could touch him. He has since hit my grandmother, my mother, beat up on my kids, called the police on my dad for no reason, tells my parents what he will and won't do, and the list goes on. They punish him however they can: no tv, no cell phone, no video games, no doing anything other that sitting on his bed, doing tons of chores. This turns into a game for him as well. He doesn't care. It has gotten to the point that he will curse my parents and yell at them. He tells them he wants to move back to my bio dad's house, the one who beat him before. His grades are horrible, he is not a joy at school. My parents pay for a private Christian school because they thought it would help. They have him in therapy. They try to reason with him.
I no longer will go to my parents house when he is there. My kids don't get to see my parents if he is around which, since they have custody, has become never. It is so bad my own dad says he knows one day he won't wake up because my nephew will kill him in his sleep.
Sorry, not trying to freak you out, just letting you know how bad it can get! Do something now before it is too late! Best of luck!
Thank you for sharing. Trust
Thank you for sharing. Trust me I have imagined even worse things that could happen if we can't do something about it now while he is still young, so this did not freak me out.
Thank you also for understanding that I just wanted to know if anyone else felt like this was an issue to take back to court, because I believe you're right, after a point, it is the threat of the punishment that can curb certain behaviors. Even still, whether or not the court decided to remove the injunction is not important to me at this point, I feel as if what BM is doing is bordering on some sort of mental/emotional abuse for SS. And if we can't get this straight now, I'd hate to see how life will stick it to him later.
I'm sorry that your parents are dealing with this to this magnitude and that because of it your children do not get to have a relationship with their grandparents. I hope it gets better for you all.
Yes, yes, go to court if you
Yes, yes, go to court if you can. Since he was never abused to begin with the courts will probably throw out the order. You have the proof that before him learning of the court order the threat would work. I agree, BM has issues. I think she is doing what she can to make your life hell. So sad that bc the BM is a bitch the kid is the one who really suffers.
I hope you can get something done! Best of luck!!
I hate to keep saying this,
I hate to keep saying this, but we have done that. We have a big chart with list of consequences and we made both kids sign a "contract" to say they understood the consequences (i.e loss of snack, loss of privileges, etc).
The changes started coming when SO felt SS6 was taking the consequences lightly and there was no change in behavior after a certain period of time. In fact, the consequences for SS8 have never changed, as he is the child that hates consequences of any kind, so when he has to lose his snack he's so down on himself that I end up having to talk to him about how consequences aren't supposed to make us feel bad about ourselves, just to help us realize there are things we should not and cannot do.
SS6 is the total opposite. Any ideas for when the written rules don't work?