I may get jumped on like the Ides of March for this but...
I (personally) just from ONCE being a kid myself think that most kids become aware of "good and bad" around ages 4-6 years.

Agreed-StepAside.

Although for reference, I was a child of divorce at age 6 years and nobody, I do mean nobody coddled, pitied, or made excuses up for me.

Times have REALLY changed lately. My SS5 yesterday while alone with me beat the dog, slammed the fridge on my hand, stomped outside, and was slapping his own face (????) DH comes home and I hand him a print out of what SS5 did and he just sits down and has the softest "talk" to him...I had to even mention to DH to TEACH his kid how to say sorry!

I think it's never been defined because it depends on the maturity of each child. I've ruined friendships over this one. One of my good friends from high school finally got it from me when we were 20 years old... I had had it with hearing "it's not my fault... I was a foster child" I'm SO sorry that that happened to you, but YOU are the only one who can change how the chips fall from here. Future employer... DOESN'T CARE future roommates, and husbands... probably don't care, because at some point you became an adult and needed to step up to the plate to overcome your obstacles. If you haven't done that yet, then wake up sweetheart you're running late! I don't think a pregnant teen is any different. At some point this child decided she was adult enough to risk bringing another life into this world. Maybe at this point who's fault doesn't matter but the bottom line is the same. You wanted to be an adult, step up to the plate. You not only are going to be considered an adult now, because of the choices you made you HAVE to be one.

Bad parenting is stuff like kids who can't clean their room. I feel like by high school you need to set boundries and offer privledges, but privledges are earned and destroyed just like in the real world, it's a mini prep and ultimately a teen is responsible for him or herself within a set of boundries until those boundries are removed at age 18

Yeah Crayon, but what do I do with 2 permissive parents?
I would have busted his butt personally like my own kid.
And just "why" is the kid starting to scratch and slap his own face? Ummm people will think I am doing that!

Hm. Well, I guess my perspective is that we don't distinguish enough between behaviors (the outward symptom) and the reasons behind them. I think that it does not matter what age a child is, if he or she can understand English, then he or she is old enough to be held responsible for their actions. Period.

However, often it seems like the outrageous behaviors we see from these kids are the result of interior turmoil. Not always, of course -- sometimes kids just decide to do stupid sh*t, or they're being lazy because their parents don't teach them not to be. And that stuff should not ever be tolerated. But sometimes they are upset and it makes them do things that to us look monstrous. Those behaviors, I think, are not just normal kid stupidity, but indications of their being disturbed about something. And that is very important to be understanding about, because if those emotional issues aren't addressed, then punishing the behaviors without getting to the bottom of why the kid is doing them will just make the problem worse. My younger SD can turn into a complete b*tch at times -- but it is always the result of something she's really upset about and not comfortable expressing. Just punishing her without trying to figure out what she's upset about isn't dealing with the problem. Don't get me wrong: we still give her consequences for those things. But then after the punishment is over, DH tries to have a conversation with her about what was going on that made her act like that.

BB

You are not second best, you are not second class. Do not ever let anyone make you feel that way. - 2BLoved

What's "disturbing" is the fact that dh talked to ss5 (alone) and of course I was listening and heard ss5 say- omg- "I did it because MWC was mean to me..."

OMG- Not true! SS5 was doing this waaaay before I told him, "no!" about grabbing stuff out of the fridge. Next thing you know I'll be under the jail.

SS5 (fyi) only gets this way around me, with daddy, he acts like a 6 month old infant.

(I really tried asking him what was wrong with no response.)

DH is waaaay to "soft." As is BM- It's like a "free for all" or something. puke...

As we all well know what can happen to a SM when kids behave this badly. You have your DH telling you to do, "whatever is needed." yet you legally can't at risk of pissing off their bioparents.
(I'm working today freaked out that SS5 will return home to tell 'mommy..) I've seen on the boards here what can happen...

I believe that this question can't be generalized as each situation brings unique challenges to the table.

Teens behaviour is a combination of biological, genetic and environmental factors.

Teens brains go through a process of rewiring that lasts typically until the age of 24. This means biologically, we are dealing with the thought pattern of a toddler (think terrible twos) but in a bigger, smarter model. They have difficulty connecting actions to reactions/consequences during this time period and that's why we see so much risky behaviour. The trick is to keep communicating to your child about hazards and dangers of risky behaviour and pray that they don't fall prey.

Genetically, we are dealing with a lot of unstable BM's (and BDs) with clear signs of mental illness. Most mental illnesses are hereditary meaning to the children have a 50/50 chance of inheriting a mental illness which typically starts to manifest during puberty and stabilizes and sets in by 24. This is why it is so important to seek a diagnoses and counseling promptly to help the child learn to cope with their problems.

Environmental - foods they are eating, lack of sleep, no boundaries, no consequences, lask of respect, etc. These are the direct result of poor parenting and is the sole blame of the bioparents.

I think its important to remember all of the above when dealing with any teen. All behaviour has meaning, the trick is to try and figure out the real cause of it. Its important during the teen years not to sugar coat life because its a hell of a shock to find out that life is not that easy and not everyone is going to cater to you.

By 24, they should be better able to understand and make the connection on actions/reactions and start to have an awareness of what they put their parents through during their teens.

We all smile in the same language

Well, I think that a.) it depends on the situation, b.) it depends on the age of the child, and c.) it depends on what that child has been taught.

Clearly if a teenager becomes pregnant or gets a girl pregnant, that's the child's responsibility. I think that clear "wrong" and "right" things become apparent by a very young age but other things that could happen really depend on if the parents have taught wrong and right. If a kid sees his parent curse people out and then does that to someone, they may not know any better because the parent has never taught them that that's not okay.

I know I get pissed about things that SD does because I know I would NEVER teach my child that the things she does are okay but I also know that her mother (by her actions) teaches her that it is okay. We spend a fair amount of time trying to undo the damage that Wilda does and we have a pretty good success rate but it's hard trying to get a handle on things sometimes. Is there anything specific that you're talking about or is this just a general question?

"There are two things over which you have complete dominion, authority, and control over - your mind and your mouth".

I've had these issues too. I'd like to put this into the mix too though.

Even the American legal system will put an older child or teenager to trial as an adult with adult penalties for certain things. They base it off of a lot of things, obviously, but you get the point.

If a parent is not held responsible legally for a kid who is old enough to know the difference between right & wrong & can sentence a minor with life in prison or the death penalty for murder instead of the parents who didn't teach them the right thing, then maybe we should take a note or 2. Although these permissive parents would probably be a heck of a lot stricter if they ended up serving their own children's sentences!

What if the law was that if your daughter has a child while still a minor, you the parents would legally be the parent & financially responsible for the life of the infant, & your daughter gets no parental rights ever? Or if your child decides to get in repeated fights & you, the parent, goes to jail for assault? Personally, I think it would make even the most permissive parent to re-think their parenting strategy!

Unfortunately, in blended families, the immediate consequences tend not to land on the permissive parent or child, but the Sparent. Otherwise, we wouldn't need this forum. Long term, everyone pays & it's sad.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying life in prison for poor manners! (although... }:) )

But pregnancy? back talk to a household contributing adult? disrespect? etc. Just like the legal system, various factors should probably be taken to decide when the individual child 'knows better.' We may not necessarily agree with SO's opinion, but it should probably be a factor in learning to deal with bad behavior along with our own.

I found that whenever I re-wrap whatever SK has done into a picture of DH as a child & ask what his parents would have done, that age of accountability always seems to drops from where he originally put it for his own kids. Doesn't work so well with 'when I was a kid...' though! lol.

I'm lucky that the age he generally assigns for knowing better ends up very close to my own opinions once I do this. Has made it a tad easier since I started using this tactic.