D@mn in-laws - UPDATED | StepTalk.org

Ok, so I've got some history with MIL and SIL, and since April have decreased contact to the point that by August I have zero contact/have them blocked on social media and my phone.

That being said, they go to the same gym I do, and sometimes I run into them. I respond with hello but try to just keep going. However, this past Wednesday they came in and stopped to talk to me. I was in the lounge area, which is really a line of chairs along the wall with little tables in front. So they *had* to walk by me and there was no where I could have gone without standing up and walking away after they spoke to me.

They wanted to talk about Zwarte Piet. Zwarte Piet is a tradition that a lot of Dutch people have made important, partly because the rest of the world is looking on in horror and Dutch people don't want to be told what to do. So in the last 50 years or so, it's become 'tradition' that the helper of Sinterklaas (Dutch Santa) is a white person, wearing blackface, dressed like a court jester, wearing a slave earring and bright red lipstick. This 'tradition' is *not* connected to the wearing of blackface in North America as part of excluding/mocking black people, but obviously looks exactly the same. Dutch people don't understand why non-Dutch people are so upset about this 'tradition' since it's not intended to be racist or otherwise bad.

And obviously I have a problem with this 'tradition'.

So their initial comments to me were about how sad it was for the kids that those immigrants were protesting about Zwarte Piet around kids' parties, how upsetting for the kids, etc etc. I said I thought it was probaby upsetting for the kids to see people wearing blackface, and that I thought it was sad that people couldn't respect each other and that so many Dutch people don't seem to realize that other countries watch how we treat people.

So they didn't like that and walked off.

I texted DH shortly after to tell him, "Look, I know your Mom doesn't like feel like she's being told what to do, and I know your sister can be quite sly, so I'm now worried they are going to put blackface on DD this coming weekend when our city has a Sinterklaas party. I don't know how you plan to address that, but if it happens, DD will no longer be going to visit MIL every Thursday afternoon. I will stop supporting contact between DD and SIL and MIL."

So of course, today (Sinterklaas party) DH got a text (which I *think* he tried to hide from me but I will have to find out more before I jump to conclusions) with a picture of DD wearing blackface.

How would any of you handle this kind of disrespect? I mean, taking the hot button issue of what blackface is all about off the table (if you can), it's still a situation where MIL and SIL know exactly where I stand, and chose to oppose my values, and rubbed it in my face with my child.

Possibly relevant: Even though I find Zwarte Piet terrible, I don't put up a fuss at public events where this character appears. I don't attend those events myself (except the one at my husband's work, but I'm considering not attending). I just expect that my DD isn't brought into it herself.

Times are changing, a few cities decided this year not to do it, and I expect that will continue in the coming years. It's just not acceptable and eventually no one will think it is anymore.

*******UPDATE*******

I took on all of what you guys commented and really tried to give myself more options. I am a huge chicken when it comes to confrontation, especially because DH and I have tried talking with the result of me being hurt and upset and nothing changing. I also don't want to cut them off from DD, I felt really petty about that. But I sure don't want this kind of thing to continue, in any arena. I mean, there are a lot of 'parenting' decisions that I am easygoing about, and I've always been like that (thanks to this site, really). For example, I think MIL could be more aware of DD's schedule for eating, and more responsible that she goes potty before going outside rather than having an accident, and she has the TV on too much, but meh, I truly don't care enough about that stuff to interfere. I do care about social justice issues and raising DD to be a good person, who believes that all people are to be treasured (even the a$$holes), and I care that my personal life is fairly drama-free, and I'm not willing for that to be interfered with.

DH got even more information - turns out, not only was it not Zwarte Piet but Chimney Piet instead, also there was someone on the street painting the kids' faces who asked DD if she wanted her face painted and MIL/SIL didn't say no because they thought Chimney Piet is ok (and because they don't get why we have a problem with it in the first place). So at least MIL/SIL didn't do this themselves.

DH assures me he has made it clear that they are to ask about anything they have any doubts about in the future, because Chimney Piet was not ok. He thinks they understood.

I told DH that it's up to him if and how he wants to communicate this with his mom/sister, but should something happen in the future where I feel my decisions as DD's parent are being undermined or where I feel they are doing something to try to get DH to take sides with them against me, I will stop all contact between them and DD for 3 months. I hope it doesn't come to that, because this is the sole incident that actually crossed a line and DD will be 3 shortly. I suspect we will see shortly whether this incident has emboldened them or if DH was effective enough in reining them in. Mostly because the actual day of Sinterklaas and DD's b'day are coming up in the next couple of weeks, and I'm curious about how they will engage with DH about that (and me, lol).

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As an Black American, I find

As an Black American, I find this tradition along with the American version repulsive. With that being said, it is your right as her parent that if you are opposed to your daughter participating in this "tradition". Your MIL and SIL should respect your decision. I'm in agreement that if they are unwilling to adhere, then no more contact.

As an Black American, I find

Hi Fruit, I've updated my

Hi Fruit, I've updated my blog to be more clear about timing. For sure they knew how I felt, this latest interaction was Wednesday and the photo was taken today, plus discussion in prior years.

First let me say I'm black,

First let me say I'm black, so of course that will play a major role in my opinions on racial issues.

Your MIL,SIL and every other person taking part in this tradition know damn well why it is offensive. How can they not know? It's not like the Dutch weren't involved in the slave trade. Of course they were not allowed to have slaves IN the Netherlands, but there were no such rules in place in regards to their colonies around the world.

They are using their disgusting tradition to passive aggressively spit in the faces who find this offensive.

If I were in your shoes, I would cuss both of their asses out. I would have a hard time not slapping the SIL. My daughter would never be allowed near them without my husband or I being present.

The bitch in me says include them in a family photo. Then print up fliers denouncing the tradition. Make sure the beautiful family photo is front and center. Do everything in your power to ensure that the fliers are plastered any and every place that MIL and SIL socialize.

I didn't say in blackface. I

I didn't say in blackface. I find blackface racist and offensive. Why would I suggest they do that for a family picture/ material that is being used to denounce that aspect of the tradition.

YES I would use the picture

YES

I would use the picture in material denouncing that aspect of the celebration. Simply a way of saying that it is possible to celebrate without being offensive to the black community.

Having moved to the usa from

Having moved to the usa from Europe I was suprised to learn about a lot of things which are supposed stereotypes of different groups here that I had never heard of (think watermelon and fried chicken for black people - I did not have a cue that that was a negative stereotype). Different cultures and countries do have different traditions and different things that at considered offensive. Not everything translates directly. Sometimes they clash and everyone gets upset and confused, each side taking offense that they are being misunderstood. If someone said that a long held tradition that you had grown up with was suddenly offensive by standards in other countries then there would probably be some resistance to removing or altering that tradition to appease people seen as outsiders.

I think this is a delicate issue and one you should discuss carefully with your husband.

One thing to think about is are you just looking for an excuse to keep your daughter away from these women? Are they a negative influence on your daughter in other ways?

This issue is one that will come up only once per year and hopefully between now and next year you and your husband can come up with a way so that your mil will not black up your daughter again.

In the mean time obviously you can educate your daughter around the issues so that she has an understanding of why the festivities can be interpreted as offensive.

The issue is that they

The issue is that they crossed a line. I have always encouraged their relationship with DD (&DH) until the April comment that I'm not family, then I stopped facilitating and went down to supporting.

They had it so good. All they had to do was not insert my child into a tradition I don't like. They were still at the party, still having a great time - what did putting blackface on DD add to the experience, except a big fat screw you to me?

I understand all the reasons why there is resistance to changing traditions, but I feel like this is Tofu-rkey at Thanksgiving. If you're celebrating the Thanksgiving tradition but you don't eat meat, you adapt. If you're the host with vegetarian guests, you don't put turkey on their plate S. And you certainly don't force feed anyone turkey. You know?

So the question is, now what? Zwarte Piet is once per year, but the disrespect and unpleasantness is escalating. And that's the problem.

It sounds like you know what

It sounds like you know what you want to do but that you feel bad and want some other opinions to back you up. It is normal to feel bad if you are cutting your daughter off from her family but if this is a pattern of behavior that you and your husband agree is having or will have a negative effect on your daughter then it is up to you two to decide how best to protect her. It sounds like you have already tried some options and if this is the next step that you two agree on then go ahead and cut them off. Otherwise maybe your husband could supervise all visits they have with your daughter or perhaps there is another intermediate step you two may choose to take first. It really is just something that the two of you will have to decide on.

BethAnne, you're exactly

BethAnne, you're exactly right. It's very difficult and a very unhappy decision to contemplate. I feel like I know what is 'right' but I don't like to cause strife. I don't think anyone would be truly hurt, except my values about giving DD a strong extended family. Lots of people disagree without this level of what I perceive to be antagonism, and I just don't want the drama.

But my history is where I don't have any family of my own in this country, I don't have a strong connection to my family in Canada (and I have finally stopped trying so hard), and I wanted better for DD.

Growing up, we saw my grandparents about 1x every two months, but more in the summer. I thought it would be wonderful for DD to have more contact with her Oma as part of her having more people who love her, and more examples of happy and successful adults in her life.

Do you have any ideas for an intermediate step?

I have a hard time believing

I have a hard time believing that this tradition has "suddenly become offensive". I'm willing to bet that the black community there has always been offended by this tradition for decades.

Deleted my comment.

I agree this is a racism

I agree this is a racism tradition.....and, I would tell MIL, I told you not to indoctrinate my daughter in this sickening tradition, now she is not coming over.

it is that simple, she disrespected you and used your own child to do so...

It's blatant disregard for

It's blatant disregard for you a DD'S mother. You have chosen to raise your child a certain way (which I admire) and have expressed your feelings /perspective about about particular issue. They did want they wanted anyway.

No more unsupervised visits. They knowingly crossed a line and have proven to pursue their agenda against your wishes. I'm sorry Moe.

My father is Dutch and

My father is Dutch and SinterKlaas and all that entails has always been a part of my life. That being said did you actually tell these Dutch women (who really cannot filter anything remotely being subtle) that in no circumstances are they to paint your daughters face black. And the reason in your country it is seen as very insulting and for your American family to see this they will get the wrong idea about it and frankly you hope they have a wonderful time educating your daughter about SinterKlaas but black face is not to happen at ALL.

If you didn't tell them specifically then sadly you lost that battle. My mother had to be VERY blunt with my aunt (fathers sister) to tell her to butt out of their marriage. Her sister-in-law would call dad and tell him what to do like the bossy dutch woman she is. Um not in my mothers world!

So let them know they crossed a line and for the forseeable future and until they can respect your wishes they are out of luck with 1:1 time.

You have been shown and told

You have been shown and told that your feelings as DD's parent do not matter. It's up to you if you're prepared to keep allowing this. I know that I couldn't.

And that's fundamentally my

And that's fundamentally my biggest issue here. The Sinterklaas tradition didn't include blackface for all the Pieten (the helpers) in the 1960s. Before that, they did it with some, because the tradition included that the helpers were Moors from Spain and there were no black people in the Netherlands, so they did blackface. Ok, not the evolution as in North America. But how did the blackface become ingrained after 1970? And that's a political story about the us vs. them rhetoric, and not about re-enacting racist practices. It's touted as 'tradition' but I don't buy it. Not only because it's less traditional than the American idea of an intact family (a concept from the 1950s), but because so many other elements of the tradition have been changed or eliminated.

The stories about Sinterklaas used to include lots of references to if the Pieten heard of a kid being naughty, they would grab him/her by the ear, beat them with a switch, put them in a bag, and take them back to Spain. Nobody talks about *that* anymore. That part of the tradition has been dropped without a complaint. So the 'it's tradition' argument doesn't hold any water, IMHO.

What does dominate is a lack of appropriate dialogue (which would require respect, listening, and a willingness to be wrong), and a culture of us vs. them. Many Dutch people feel that immigrants come into the country and take jobs, resources, intermarry, make demands, and otherwise pose a big threat to them and their safety. "Immigrants come in and get all this for free, but I have to work hard and pay taxes and still have nothing." Sound familiar? Thinking this way is encouraged politically by some positions, mostly people who say that social problems can be blamed on immigrants and thus can be solved by elminating immigrants. Of course that position is not factually accurate. And even if it were possible in today's day and age to have truly closed borders, there will always be people who feel entitled to more (maybe justified, maybe not), people who feel like others have it better than them (maybe true, maybe not), and people who seek to divide society - based on class, caste, wealth, gender, sexuality, religion, race, ability, etc etc etc. So after eliminating immigrants, who's next? Poor people, disabled people, etc etc until finally only 'us' are left. But be careful, because 'us' is a very fluid definition!

But many people just don't think like that. Often people don't think past the end of their nose, their situation, their job opportunities, their kid's safety, etc.

Thanks to all who have

Thanks to all who have commented. And apologies in advance for the insane length, I am talking here because I can't talk to DH (as much as I'd like) since he's caught in the middle.

It's hard to distinguish between what happened and the issue. What happened bothered me, because I find the tradition offensive and that's a value I care about.

The issue is more nuanced, of course. I feel undermined. As though my IL's didn't respect my values when it comes to my kid, which is not ok. And as though my IL's expected my DH to be ok with that... even joining in with them. Maybe that wasn't their plan, but that's how I interpret them doing the blackface and sending the picture.

DH texted them and asked them why they did the blackface. They replied that they didn't, they did Chimney Piet because they thought that would be ok. I've added a little info and pics below to explain the difference. I didn't want to get into the specifics of Zwarte vs Schoorsteen (Chimney) in my discussion right now because I think it's very hard to separate the threads of, 'this tradition is a problem,' and, 'the relationship between ILs and Moe is strained so was their choice a challenge to her or not?'

I'd really like a way forward that didn't generate more conflict. But I just don't know. I feel like the option is - accept their partial excuse and ignore the implicit challenge (so, lay down and be a doormat) *OR* go nuclear with what power I do have, which is to withhold DD. Honestly, neither feels good.

With anyone else, I'd try talking about it. We have tried talking to them before, but it seems that they never see my/our POV. I used to think it was because my Dutch wasn't good enough so I had DH handle things, but that didn't help. He says it's because they just can't admit to ever being in the wrong. Like, I know Canadians say "sorry" too much, but that would absolutely have been my response if I were MIL getting a text saying "Why did you do blackface?"... along with adding about intending Chimney Piet and thought it would be ok. But there's no sense that conciliation is on the agenda.

And honestly, I don't care that I was disrespected by them - their opinion or respect is not relevant to me. I do care that they don't encourage DD to be in a situation that I find offensive. So then their position becomes that I ought not find what happened offensive (there's nothing wrong with the tradition, or it wasn't blackface so it should be ok, or we didn't intend to offend so you shouldn't be offended, it's for the kids to have fun, etc). Whereas to me, the issue isn't that I ought not take offense, the issue is that I did take offense and THEY were responsible. And also, that my taking offense seems very predictable. But again, for myself, I don't care if they offend me. I do care that they not put DD in the middle (now, she's not quite 3 so I don't that's an issue for DD, it's just an issue for the power play). And I do care that DH not be in the middle either.

I know DH has my back, although I was upset yesterday and feared he might not. But he feels his only power seems to be to withhold DD as well. Which also doesn't feel good to him either. He told me he was very surprised that they did the blackface, especially because they knew I didn't like it. It hurt him, to know that his mom and sister would do something like that at all, that they didn't know he wouldn't like it, that they would do it in defiance of my wishes. So many things that disappointed him. He's still the son/brother, and to feel pushed aside like that, to feel like they don't know him at all, don't respect his choice of partner, that is hard for him. It would be for anyone, but it's only situations like this that those thoughts and feelings get crystallized. I don't know how strongly he feels about the new information, 'It was only Chimney Piet.'

I have suggested that DD only see them when DH is willing to supervise, which would be 1x per month or less since he doesn't like to hang out with them. I don't want to *punish* the ILs, because I think that will just escalate the negative. But I don't know if there are other options.

I'm truly feeling like there is no hopeful choices. It's very discouraging.

And no, I never said, explicitly, "Don't put blackface on my kid." I've also never said, "Don't spank," "Don't call her names," "Don't tell her she's stupid," "Don't put her in a pot of boiling water," or "Don't make her eat poop." It truly never occurred to me to provide such a list.

(Here's Zwarte Piet http://denhaagfm.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/zwarte-pietjes.jpg. And here's Chimney Piet https://pressroom.rtl.nl//images/made/224d796ed1b7ea60/Piet_def-575-385-.... From my POV, the difference is minimal. But Chimney Piet is promoted here as a positive alternative to Zwarte Piet, and the image I shared is the one used on the most popular TV station for their daily Sinterklaas program, and advertised as, "We no longer do Zwarte Piet.")

I will think very carefully

I will think very carefully about this approach. It feels very uncomfortable to me to push back as you say, but I need to consider trying something else, no matter how uncomfortable, because I want to feel free of this drama. And I've followed your story for many years and I have some understanding of how you got to having that discussion, so I would like to avoid the hurt and frustration - and sheer amount of work - you took on in order to 'make it work.'

I tend to agree with Heaven's

I tend to agree with Heaven's assessment on this situation. I think it boils down to the fact you are not Dutch and despite how "welcoming" they may purport to be you still ain't part of their tribe.

Thus, there may be many of their traditions they will try to rub in your and your DH's faces (no pun intended). They see your daughter as someone who needs to be marked as their Dutch territory. If it's not the utterly offensive Swarte Piet it will eventually be something else.

As much as they may profess to be tolerant and inclusive their actions speak louder than words. Not to stereotype an entire culture, but many Dutch can be inflexible and are known for their finger-wagging at others who don't agree with their views. Have you ever read the book, "The Undutchables"? It's a great read.

Part of the culture is to not rise above or stand out from others. Perhaps this goes back to their Calvinist roots. Thus, if you dare to be different from them you should expect some finger wagging.

You don't just have an in-law problem. You have a clash of cultures. And the only person who can be an Ambassador is your DH, who needs to man-up and take them on himself.

He can explain in great detail, in their mother-tongue, why your daughter is being raised with different values. And as her mother, you will now be very direct to them as to what is acceptable and what is not - and he will back you up 100%.

exactly this!

Some people just need to be

Some people just need to be cut from your life. There's no getting your point across.

I have one question - why

I have one question - why should years of tradition be scrapped cause people get their feefees hurt?
I say bulldust - If you come to my country you accept my traditions and values, why should I change it so you can feel welcome??

TRaditions is what it is, get over it and stop feeling bad about it, If you are in a Christian country, why kick Religious ED out of schools because a couple of Moslems feels it does not belong there? if they don't like it they do not have to come to your country Moe...

And is Swarte Piet is a tradition - so be it.... you keep with your traditions do not change it to make other people feel better....

Sally, that's just

Sally, that's just exclusionary thinking.

It used to be 'tradition' to own slaves, to marry off girls at age 8, to beat women, children and animals, to walk everywhere because there was no such thing as cars... Things change. It's not realistic to try to hold onto a 'tradition' without adapting to reality. And the reality is, the Netherlands is a teeny-tiny country that is watched on the international stage, via social media, sports, business, etc. There are no such thing as closed borders, although there certainly are closed minds.

Like I explained in another response above, the Sinterklaas tradition has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Why is this the hill to die on?

Oh well if your Sinterklaas

Oh well if your Sinterklaas traditions changed over the last 50 years, then it's not a tradition in my eyes Moe,

I just assumed that Sinterklaas is Sinterklaas and it's the same for the past 100 years.... like with us..

I'm so glad my small old country is not worried about things like this, of some of the younger age truly tries to see everything as racist and feel offended but the elders set them straight....

"If you come to my country

"If you come to my country you accept my traditions and values, why should I change it so you can feel welcome??"

Where in the world was that line of thinking when Europeans were colonizing Africa, Australia, North America...? :? :?

it was not there lol....

it was not there lol.... true.... but things changed ya know...

There's nothing funny about

There's nothing funny about this.

Millions lost their lives as a result of colonization

First of all, I almost think

First of all, I almost think the issue of the fact that they went EXACTLY against your issues is the problem. I feel like I, too, as so many have said, would probably now refuse to let DD alone with them. I mean, you no longer can trust them to do anything you wish for your child's environment period.

Now to the cultural issue. I had never heard of this tradition, but being born and raised in the Southern US, I just have rarely even met anyone from that culture. I also find the tradition strange and probably offensive. I thought, well, if they wanted to dress DD up cutesy for a Christmas party, whey not dress her as an Elf? (I'm just giving you guys the first thoughts that ran through my mind...) Then I thought, well, I guess the Dutch culture of Christmas doesn't contain elves. Then I thought, wait...what if the American use of elves has also been offensive to little people all this time, and it literally never crossed my mind nor did I intend it to be harmful to another person?! Who really knows. Then I read a comment about the Dixie flag and felt hypocritical because we own a General Lee golf cart with a Dixie flag on the front.

I guess I said all of that to say, it is possible that due to their culture, even though you TRIED to explain it, they just simply cannot fathom (I know, to us this seems crazy!) the fact that you feel STRONGLY about this tradition being truly offensive.

None of that matters though, because even IF they simply cannot comprehend your strong feelings on the issue, they KNEW you did not wish for your DD to play a part in this, and they found a loophole and did it anyways. To me, that is awful because she is your child, and you have the right to raise her exactly how you wish!

I would probably no longer leave her unsupervised with them. Hugs.

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D@mn in-laws - UPDATED

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