Ugh! Lying and inability to apologize
Ongoing issues with SS9, really. He'll lie to avoid getting in trouble -- not unusual in kids. And in the four years I've known him, I've never heard him say "I'm sorry." Not even a grudging, insincere one. (DH says BM never does either.) I know my problem is ultimately with DH but yesterday was a fine example of both.
So, mid-afternoon, I was working in the dining room (my current "office") and DH was upstairs in one room on a meeting call. I heard SS come down from his room and get something out of the pantry and the silverware drawer. Peanut butter and spoon, I assumed. Didn't care. He can get a snack and he's the only one who eats PB so no big deal if he eats it from the jar. Then he ran back upstairs. To my knowledge, he's never taken food or drink upstairs but I don't think he's been told not to, so let it go. Figured if he was responsible about it, it was fine to do.
Not too long after, both guys were back downstairs and I was wrapping up work when our big dog ran through. Guess what I smelled on her breath?
"Hey, babe, why does Dog smell like PB?"
DH was puzzled. Didn't know. I did, but decided not to call SS out immediately. Better to see how it played out. DH went back to reading.
A couple of minutes later, SS went upstairs, moved around in his room, closed the door and came back down.
Still puzzled, DH kept questioning SS about it. When SS was out of the room, he asked me if we even had any. Yes. Full jar. But it wasn't in the pantry.
Between then and dinner, through numerous questioning sessions, which I stayed out of the room for, DH gradually got from SS:
Maybe he did have some. But he thought he put it back.
He might not have put it back, but he brought the spoon down. (No dirty spoon anywhere in the kitchen.)
Dinner was almost ready and DH came down from his shower, asked if SS had brought the PB down like he'd told him. Nope.
Now really steamed, he made SS go upstairs with him to find it. When SS "couldn't " and insisted he'd put it back, they came back down and DH stood there for a solid four minutes while SS "looked" on the pantry shelves. He finally said he might know where and disappeared upstairs. Back a minute later with the jar. Had to send him back for the spoon, which he was still saying he brought down. The lid was on, but from the amount gone, it was clear the dog had gotten it.
"I might have left the lid a little loose."
I know. It's nothing. A jar of PB. I made it clear to DH what I thought needed to happen: no food or drink upstairs and he needs to pay for a new jar since he wasted it.
DH told me he talked to him about it at bedtime. I'm sure he did. But the big issues will keep happening. Drives me nuts how DH will get angry or fed-up at some behavior, vent to me, agree with me on what to do (I don't offer unless he asks), then drop it without really addressing the problem with SS. The problem wasn't that he ate in his room. It's that he was irresponsible and then lied.
But the way this goes, SS will be shy and quiet and scared of getting into trouble (genuine -- he's a perfectionist who will burst into tears at minor corrections). Then, when the truth comes out, he reverts back to normal and happy. He knows there are no consequences, really. and if DH ever addresses it at all, it's a milk toast "don't do that, ok?" SS never shows any sign he understands or cares. And it happens again just in another form.
What bugs me more? SS never apologized for flat-out lying to his dad over and over. And DH doesn't even notice. Not my problem. But it still grates. I'd like this kid to grow up to be someone I want to be around. But I'm pretty powerless.
I know. It's nothing. A jar
I know. It's nothing. A jar of PB.
It was only PB this time but it could have been a lot worse, there are many things that are dangerous for dogs to eat.
Besides dealing with the lying, your husband needs to start teaching his kid some responsibility.
I completely agree. SS's
I completely agree. SS's sloppiness, refusal or inability to take responsibility for actions -- all drives DH crazy. Yet when I talk to him about "SS is getting old enough to help out more. Maybe we should sit down and come up with chores" DH agreed but never follows up. I don't feel like I should have to take the lead. It needs to come from him. And if I push DH too much, it will sound like I'm the nagging SM or something.
When something comes up or happens, DH just tells him what to do or has a talk with him, then no consequences.
I've told SS many times "don't put empty boxes/bottles/bags" back in the pantry or fridge. Yet he still does it.
Last night, we were doing dishes (taking forever for the new one to arrive, but that's another issue) and I noticed the ziplock bag of homemade cookies was open. SS has gotten one for dessert. I casually said, "Hey, dude. What should you have done with that bag?" I swear the kid glared at me and zipped it with a sharp, jerking move. DH had his back to him. I let it go. Enough drama that day. And given how quiet he's been with me, I get the feeling he thinks I tatted him out in the PB. But that may be in my head.
My problem is ultimately with DH but it's affecting my feelings about SS.
My SS20 is a liar, too. He
My SS20 is a liar, too. He can apologize superficially - ie, if he steps on your foot or something, but he generally takes zero responsibility for his actions. This started when he was around your SS's age and grew from there. My DH did everything he could to address it, but BM is a liar too, in the same vein. Nothing is ever her fault, much as nothing is ever SS's fault. Either it's genetic, or he learned his lessons from her very well.
It's very sad for my DH, and there is nothing he can do. I don't believe anything my SS says without independent verification.
I have always taught DS that
I have always taught DS that he may get a consequence for doing something wrong, but he will get a much bigger consequence for lying about it. People dont change thier behavior or learn from thier mistakes if they dont own it. I get what your saying it's not about the peanut butter. Because in life sometimes lies lead to bigger issues and can hurt people.
Yep. And DH has vented to me
Yep. And DH has vented to me that he hates the lying and inability to apologize. Yet other than talk to SS, nothing happens. I think there need to be consequences that will hit home for SS but it's not my call. And I can't say too much negative without looking like I'm attacking his kid.
This isn't the first time SS has hidden something and then lied. Once it was broken glass in his bed (he broke his piggy bank). We found it at bedtime and had to change the sheets and clean it up.
Well, if your husband chooses
Well, if your husband chooses not to deal with it, I suppose someday there will be some natural consequences, like your SS needing stitches in his ass. Maybe then, they will both learn something.
Unfortunately, those natural consequences could be damaging to others, like your dog.
Just wish I could count on
Just wish I could count on even that working. SS shows every sign of "it's someone else's fault" syndrome. There have been other examples, but when he does get in trouble or we put consequences in place, he's angry and resentful. That's part of being an immature kid. I get that. But I see absolutely no sign of even hidden remorse.
And for all DH and BM's talk about "well, if he keeps that up he may get punched by another kid/bitten by the dog and he'll learn a lesson" when SS suffers a consequence, their hackles go up.
Lying is one of a few things
Lying is one of a few things I would not let slip by.
My dh was quick to handle many things. Thank God...
but,
WHEN a lie occured in front of me, right then and there, I handled it.
JMO
If it had just been me, I
If it had just been me, I would have (and then talked to DH about it later). But I was a bystander with this and I didn't think it was a good idea to take over or discipline with DH there.
DH hates lying and has said many times he wants SS to know he can come to him with things. Yet it doesn't appear to me that the lying is being addressed. And SS doesn't come to him when he's in trouble or has a problem so he must not be going about that right either.
Maybe try approaching DH in a
Maybe try approaching DH in a different way. For example with the piggy bank, ask him if he thinks it would be a good idea to teach SS responsibility by having him clean up the mess. Sometimes its about the way things are said that can help OP not go on the defense. What I often do with SO is just act like I am having a casual conversation with him. An example is he took YSDs hair straightener away for back talking him. Later that day he wanted to give it back. I said if that's what you think is best, and then just nonchalantly asked him what he thought she was learning by him doing that. He decided on his own to keep it until she apologized.
That's good advice, thanks! I
That's good advice, thanks! I tend to pay attention to tone and wording but I'll work on that more.
In the case of the piggy bank, it was a couple of years ago and involved pieces of jagged glass and shards so we couldn't have him clean it. Unsafe. And since he was going back to BM's the next day, not much we could do for immediate consequences either. I do agree he should have to clean up after himself. Usually DH does make him do that but it's like a blank slate every time. That's why I think more creative consequences may be in order.
DH can be weird about things. He feels like his house growing up was too strict with nothing but rules. I think he errs too far the other way. Just lets stuff go rather than address a demonstrably ongoing problem.
My SD(16)
is a big liar. I always knew it, since she was about 7. But it of course was nothing major then. The the summer before she turned 15, my SS and I were on our way to drop him off at college. He said that his sister was a "really good liar" and that I should try and make DH understand that, as he is very gullible. I told him I already knew that. But even I wasn't ready for the lies she ended up telling over the next two years. And she never apologizes. In all my years of knowing her the only time I've ever heard her apologize is being sarcastic. I have never heard her once be sincere. But she sure expects everyone to apologize to her. I've apologized to her, for the sake of my husband, more than once. And i sure as hell still don't know what for, as I did nothing but great things for that brat. It is her parents' fault. Plain and simple. She has never been held accountable and no one has ever taught her the value of apologizing when someone's feelings are hurt or when you have done something wrong. She's a lost cause as far as I'm concerned. She's really horrible.
Sounds like a cautionary tale
Sounds like a cautionary tale! I'm sorry.
SS doesn't even say it sarcastically. I'm starting to wonder if he even know the word exists.
DH says BM and her whole family are that way (may be true). But I definitely know SS has an extreme aversion to being wrong or corrected so that may be at play.
The only negative at his mid-year teacher conference was from his math/science teacher. She said he was working with him on perfectionism because he would get angry or emotional every time he was wrong. She wanted him to see that mistakes and wrong answers are part of learning.
If the whole family is that way, run...
You are dealing with a Cluster B family, almost certainly. That inability to apologize, coupled with lying and manipulation, is a symptom of a personality built on fear and shame. It sounds small, it so isn't...
If the whole family learned to operate like that, then they are ALL dysfunctional and enabling each others' madness.
Do not become a part of this.
I don't know if your SS's
I don't know if your SS's apologies will make you feel better. I say this because my SS12 is a professional apologizer. He said sorry to the mistakes no problem, but he never changes, and will repeat the same mistake one minute after he apologize.
What I'm trying to say---apologies don't fix problems. Poeple (SKIDS) have to fix themselves. I would be fine with SS not apologizing but fix all his shitty minor issues. But that day might never come...
Good point. I guess for me I
Good point. I guess for me I'm not really fixated on the apology. In this case, DH was owed one, really. Not me. It's more that seeing some sort of remorse or guilt or regret would be nice, even without the words. As it is, there's nothing. And he keeps doing whatever it is without a care.
I just can't help but see that as a potential future problem. But maybe I'm being unreasonable or unrealistic about 9-year-olds.
Kids like this are incapable
Kids like this are incapable of not lying. My SS was one of them during most of his mid teens. The tactic I adopted to counter it was to not ask him questions but to demand that he "show" us. Instead of asking if he brought the PB down, which he would always answer before the question was completely asked and invariably just told us what he thought we wanted to hear, we would tell him to show us what he did with it. He then had to go through the bullshit looking for it crap which was obviously bullshit because he would stand in one spot staring blankly at the place where it should be then as we upped the pressure he would go through a bullshit search until finally we applied so much pressure, no matter how long it took, until he would show us where the thing we asked him about actually was. We made sure that the consequences for lying were far more unpleasant than the consequences for what he had done.
"Show us your homework", "Where are the vacuum marks if you actually vacuumed as you were told to do?" "Your reading log for school shows that you have been reading the same book for 3 weeks and that you have read over 1000 pages in that same book. Go get the book, bring it to us, and don't even think about playing the you can't find it game.", etc. etc. etc........
Eventually he learned to just do what he knew he was supposed to do and learned to not even try lying. Then we had to deal with the "I don't know" phase which we addressed with immediate consequences any time those words left his mouth.
It took us continually tightening the box around him until the only tolerable thing he could do was to just tell the truth.
He got it. And to this day the one thing he cannot tolerate is people bullshitting him. When it comes up he tells us that we made lies and bullshit so unpleasant for him that he cannot tolerate in others.
So, no more questions. Just "show me". It saves a ton of frustration during the bullshit filled lie phase of raising kids. And... we made SS write tens of thousands of sentences regarding his infractions. All in perfect handwriting, perfect grammar, perfect spelling and punctuation at a rate of 120-180 sentences per hour until the entire amount was completed. The sentence clearly referenced the infraction. This way he learned that if he chose to screw around when he was supposed to be working he could work when he was supposed to be screwing around. To this day SS-27 has beautiful handwriting and twinges when we mention writing sentences. We all have a good laugh over it though.
He apparently was not severly damaged by your zero tolerance for bullshit or for having to write sentences for countless hours over the several years.
Lies were the worst infraction that we could do as kids and the consequences were extremely unpleasant. Endless lectures, THE look, explainations of how our parents detested liars, how they could not trust us, months of grounding, and a notable session of belt being applied to kid ass..... any time one of us made the mistake of lying.
Good luck.
Actually, the "show me" part
Actually, the "show me" part did end up happening. Started with questions. At dinner time, when SS hadn't brought it down like DH told him, DH matched him upstairs. No clue what happened up there, but a few minutes later, they were standing in the pantry door.
"Ok. You brought it down. Where is it?"
Took a few minutes before SS admitted it might be upstairs. I had to say "There's no spoon over here" before he admitted the spoon might be up there too.
So, we did trap him in his lies. Problem was, I think it too long to get there and there were no consequences other than being told no more food in his room. Heck, an hour later, DH is asking him what he wants for dessert.
I see no sign he knows or cares he did anything wrong. Sounds like you handled things very well! I'm way tougher than DH. But I don't have the authority so other than carefully worded comments, just have to watch. It's very frustrating!
I use the prevention method
With sd9 I use the prevention method and have house rules in place to prevent misbehavior. With my sd9 it works well. I control the kitchen so sd9 has to ask if she can get anything from the kitchen so I can prevent her usurping the house rules of no eating outside the kitchen. I also make her clean up any crumbs she leaves. When I first married dh I paid attention to what the sources of frustration were with sd9 and created house rules to prevent said frustrations. Since she has to ask me for everything there is no room for her to lie. I fact check everything so she knows she can't lie to me even if she wanted to.
because of this she doesn't like coming over since at her moms house she is left alone for long periods and completely unsupervised, but that is her problem. My castle, my rules. Thankfully dh is behind me on this and it creates a seamless running household.
Also we are supposed to be getting full custody of her at the next court date so sd9 will not be happy about that. The custody evaluator determined that bm is too mentally unstable to raise a kid so she is going to get eow instead of the 50/50 we currently have. All the more reason the house rules are so important imo.
Very smart, Lizzylemon!
Very smart, Lizzylemon!
SS usually asks DH before he gets anything. This time, he wanted something and DH was in a meeting so he just went in and got it. He will not ask me for anything. Never has. Normally he'll just wait until DH is there or available so not sure why he didn't this time.
I don't know why he refuses to ask me unless he sees me as unapproachable or thinks I'd say no (most likely I'd say yes). But he's hypersensitive. There have been a couple of times when he's been told he can get a drink or snack and I've stopped him from what he was reaching for (juice is for breakfast and we only have a little left, we're having nachos for dinner so pick something other than the tortilla chips). I wouldn't be surprised if that's set in his mind now that I don't allow stuff.
Anyway, I've tried to broach rule subjects with DH before and he'll agree, then get lackadaisical about enforcing. But that's a DH problem. If I keep harping on it, I just look and feel like a nag.
Yes I know the feeling
My dh was the same way at first, so I told him that in order of things to run smoothly that when she asked him for something she needed to tell her "go ask Lizzylemon" for literally everything. So basically he made me the chief that makes all skid decisions in the house. I told dh this would be a trial run and if he pleased with the harmony in the house that he could do this permenantly. It worked! It's more work for me on my end but we have zero arguments over the skid when she is here since he defers to me. I told dh that he is not able to be objective with her because he is emotionally attached and I am an objective party and continue to do parenting research to hone my abilities.
Perhaps something like this would work for you too?
I appreciate the suggestion
I appreciate the suggestion but I'm not sure it would work for us. For one thing, I very much fear SS would grow resentful of me if I took over too much authority. BM would too -- and we've managed to avoid any troubles with her so far.
Also, DH can be touchy in child matters. While he solicits my advice and insists he respects my opinion, he gets sensitive at any criticism (real or perceived) of his child rearing. His childhood, by his account, was strict and rule-heavy. He doesn't want SS's childhood to be "miserable." Sometimes my ideas about child rearing and rules remind him too much of his parents and he gets prickly.
Honestly, I think he leans too far the other way (from rules). Kids need rules, responsibility and structure. Also fun and flexibility. It's about balance.
But I think his own negative feelings towards his upbringing combined with feelings of guilt (over more than just the divorce) contribute to it being difficult for him to discipline effectively.
2 of my SKs lied all the time
SD and YSS lied all the time. I used to laugh to myself, if I asked YSS a question, over a 5 minute period, i would get 3 answers: a version of no, a version of yes and a version of maybe or I don't know. I learned to either not ask or anticipate the 3 part reply. SD wasnt sharp enough to do that, hers were just lies. I think its a self-protective thing. YSS outgrew it, SD didnt.
No, not just a jar of PB. Complete and utter bullshit, the PB
has nothing to do with the kids lack of character of DH's lack of a clue about his lying POS failed family progeny.
Lies are lies. Regardless of what they are about.
As for kids who are full of shit... quit asking them questions and give them a directive. My SS was one who for years nothing he answered to was anything but bullshit. So, I quit asking him questions and started to direc thim to "show me". E.g. "Show us your homework." Show us your clean room." Etc, etc, etc....
No more questions. Only directives to demonstrate. As for the PB... "Do not say a word. Get the PB, get it now, and do not lead me on some bullshit fake search for it. If you do anything other than immediately deliver the PB and then tell me exactly why the dog smells like PB you will bend over, grab your ankles and experience a belt to your ass. MOVE NOW!"
No questions, no chance to bullshit, only directive and consequence.
Lather, rinse, repeat.