Don't think I should go to court anymore.... I might wind up in jail
SIL is getting married in 2 weeks. We have be "trying" to get an answer from BM if she will send SS14. SIL is only 23. They were always so close, well up until late last year when SS decided that all of this side of the family sucks all of a sudden. Regardless of how SS has been acting SIL and MIL always go to all of his band concerts, school ceremonies, as many baseball games as the can, etc. She has always supported him. (MIL and SIL live about an hour from SS. We are 1300 miles away for those who don't know the back story- BM moved SS away while DH was out to sea (Navy). By the time he could do anything about it, residency had been established and he started school there. DH was just F**ked.)
SIL decided not to send an invitation in advance because we didn't have a court date yet #1, #2 if she knew too much in advance she would send him out of the state and #3 he doesn't actually receive any of the mail or gifts any of us send him anymore.
Anyway since BM wont answer us SIL finally emailed BM since SS has blocked our whole family from his phone:
"BM,
I just wanted to reach out and give you details to my wedding that I really hope my nephew will be able to attend.
Date, Place, Time, Reception info ....
If you have any questions I will be happy to communicate with you. If my nephew won' t be attending, I really need to hear that from him.
Thanks
SIL
SS14 unblocked her from his phone long enough to say:
I am not going. I didn't get an invite and I live with my mom an y didn't u send one to my house and all the messages I do get I just don't respond it's my choice I will be 15 in october I choose what I want to do and no do
YEP folks- grown a$$ man right there. He will be 15 in October- so totally counts. WTF! I am going to knock him upside his head!!! But not before I beat BM with a 2X4!
I am so disgusted with this kid. I just can't even.... As a parent of teens I have a very simple answer- Family first, always. You don't get to make choices about this until you are 18, graduated AND live on your own. ALL 3 BOXES MUST BE CHECKED- until then, you do as I say- THE. END.
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He's alienated. BM has made
He's alienated. BM has made him think that he's a grown man who is making his own decisions. She made him think it's HIS IDEA to cut out his family.
No 15-year-old in their right mind cuts out a loving parent and their family - this is a distinct sign of alienation.
I was mad at SS19, too when he would talk this way - but intellectually I knew that it's Parental Alienation that causes him to say that. He's BM's conduit to express her unresolved stuff. That is not his true self.
My SS once said by text, at 15, that DH was "Harsh, cruel and undeserving". DH looked at me and said, "What exactly does my 15-year-old think I'm undeserving of?"
Again, I get it, because I struggled with anger at my SS, too (still do) - but this is a kid caught in a powerful web of dysfunction that he can't navigate.
My SS got all the messages DH sent too - they just ignore them. But everything I've read about alienated kids is that deep down inside, they are grateful for the those messages and don't want them to stop.
Also - DH's family means well, but they shouldn't send repeated invites and make all these efforts to get to him - just send one and let it go. If they do more than that, he gets pressure from BM to shut them down instead of ignore them.
Im torn on how I feel about
Im torn on how I feel about things like this. I agree this kid is PAS’d to hell & back, but at nearly 15 should there not be even an ounce of personal responsibility as well? To not be an absolute douche? It’s hard to say, but then I was never PAS’d so I don’t know how I’d react.
My husbands daughter is PAS’d and I hold her accountable for her actions to a certain degree. A friend of mine has divorced parents & her BM tried this stuff but my friend was/is strong enough in her own mind not to allow that kind of manipulation, even at a young age. Neither did her brother.
Ive got another friend who’s ex has alienated his daughter but not his son, despite her efforts, so I do believe alienation can only work on certain personality types.
Either way OP, I feel you. It’s really hard when you’re in the thick of it not to feel completely enraged at the people & their nerve with stuff like this. I’m still livid with my husbands daughter & it will take a lot of effort on her part towards her father for me to see her in a different light.
They have been convinced that
They have been convinced that the alienated parent and his family are horrible people who have hurt them and deserve their scorn and hatred. Just like people on here who cut out family members for REAL reasons and ignore their attempts at contact.
SS is convinced that DH is a reprehensible person who deserves his disrespect. They don’t treat others in their life this way.
How would you treat someone you thought had abused/abandoned/ you?
I agree about how hard it is, though. I don’t really see my SS because I’m still angry. But it helps to see it from his perspective.
ETA: And you are right, alienation efforts don't work on all kids. My SS is very anxious, passive and feels a strong need to take care of his mother.
I understand that, but I can
I understand that, but I can also understand when you’re in the thick of it watching your spouse get hurt how hard it is not to both take it personally (on your spouses behalf) and also be angry with the kid themself.
I never used to hold DH’s daughters alienation against her. It wasn’t until she dangled a relationship in front of his nose then ripped it away as soon as she didn’t get exactly what she wanted exactly how she wanted it that I decided she’s old enough to know better than to treat people like that. She went from a beautiful girl who was stuck in her mothers clutch to an ugly person I’d like never to have in my life, in the blink of an eye.
I totally agree. It’s very
I totally agree. It’s very hard to watch. We are still in it too.
^^^THIS^^^, we dealt with
^^^THIS^^^, we dealt with this with Spawn and by the time she was 17 and bragging to people about how she and meth mouth had a plan to screw DH in court, I was done! At that point Spawn was showing despite being raised by us her loyalty would always be with Meth Mouth and she would do anything to help her and hurt us.
Sometimes you have to evalute whats your life worth having somebody that toxic infesting it. For me it wasn't worth it, it took DH another year and a half before he finally couldn't take it anymore and cut Spawn off. It's amazing how different our lives and marriage have been with out having that cancer invade it.
If they become that toxic,
If they become that toxic, there really is no choice. My SS never got quite that bad.
It is so hard. On one hand
It is so hard. On one hand you feel horrible for them and know deep down that their choices and the way they think/things they say are all heavily impacted by a personality disordered tyrant who has been brainwashing them since birth.... but on the other hand it is devastating and disappointing that they themselves are able to cause so much hurt- and the natural reaction towards that is anger and disgust. They have to be responsible to some degree because they do KNOW right from wrong... like tog said, they don’t treat others this way— but they have been conditioned to think that their other family really IS that horrible and unworthy of any form of respect or decency.
I have flipped back and forth so much between anger and pity.
I think the part that burns
I think the part that burns me the most is what a sheep SS is. He can't state an actual opinion. He is the king of shoulder shrugs.
Last night DH asked me, since I have a BS in Social Psych (even though I work in accounting- Life is funny that way) what I think will happen in therapy. I told him that the therapist, if they are worth their weight will try and get SS to figure out what it is that DH has done- TO HIM- that makes him feel this intense hatred of his father. It will eventually work out that he is trying to fight his mommy's battle. The thing that will have to eventually happen is that he needs to realize that mommy can fight her own battle. That SS and DH have no real issues.
The harder part and the part that he may never realize unless he gets divorced and has an evil C*nt ex-wife will be the realization that while no one in blameless in divorce, DH never did anything "wrong". Sure, he could have been more x,y,z. Sure he could have handled _____ differently. BM is the one that bailed on their marriage. BM is the one that moved SS away under false pretenses. BM literally stole SS from DH while he was in a powerless situation in the middle of the ocean. But at the end of the day, BM being spiteful because DH isn't giving her all the money she "deserves" and being bitter that DH has moved on with his life and relationships isn't any reason to mind f*ck the kids into hating their father.
My SS had three therapists.
My SS had three therapists. First one bought the story hook,line and sinker, and helped BM win in court. Despite DH and I both talking to her and exposing BM's lies, she still bought it. She encouraged SS and BM to try to get a restraining order against DH.
Therapist #2 was more savvy and saw that there was some alienation. BM refused to allow her to meet alone with SS and that ended.
Therapist #3 was OK, he got that BM was not blameless and initially met with BM and SS, and DH and SS. Then he stopped responding to DH completely, probably because SS wanted him to. He would call out SS on his crap, so SS fired him.
What I found out is that my fellow child mental health people DO NOT understand alienation AT ALL.
BM isn't being spiteful and punishing DH for money - she's a damaged human being who has fallen apart due to the divorce and her own past trauma. She probably genuinely thinks she's being a good mother - after all, she tried to the same thing with her other kids, too.
exH and his mother attempted
exH and his mother attempted to alientate DD from me and her siblings when she was about the same age. dd went to gma's for the summer and exH and gma decided she should stay there and not come back to me. Overnight dd went from oldest of siblings to only child who could make all her own decisions and do whatever she wanted. It was a mess and negatively impacted all of us. Ironically exH and exMIL have little to to do with DD now that she's in her mid 20's. They used her as a weapon against me and tossed her aside when they were done.
Those weren’t his words. He
Those weren’t his words. He might have typed them but mom was telling him what to say. The invite could have come any which way and it would have resulted in the same outcome.
I think this gives you a heads up about what to expect in court: “He is almost 15 and can decide for himself, he is happy where he is and hasn’t even seen these people or wanted to in a year and is doing fine. He doesn’t feel comfortable around these people. I can’t FORCE him to go, what am I supposed to do tie him up to deliver him to them?”. This is along the same lines exactly as what we got in court and (depending on the judge) it USUALLY works!
I think that the court knows what is going on and I think they just decide “Well, we know it isn’t necessarily ‘the right thing’ but we don’t want to uproot this kid who is ‘happy’”. They don’t really care about the what is going on below the surface for the most part. The only time they seem to care (from what I have read) is when the kid is actually showing distress over the alienarion- so if they are depressed, acting out in school, are getting in trouble with the law, etc.. THEN they might think about making a change. Otherwise they just keep with the status quo and expect dad (or mom) to just keep staying hopeful that the alienating parent will come to their senses. They will order time, but if the order is broken? Oh well. Just lecture mom on the importance of having two parents and set another order..., and when that one is broken, just repeat. This will go on until the kid is an adult (because it takes months on end to get a new hearing or address a matter)- then the kid is an adult and resentful that dad (or mom) was such a bully and kept taking their poor mom (or dad) back to court because they just couldn’t accept that the kid was “happy”.
Yes, it's really hard for the
Yes, it's really hard for the court and for the professionals, because you have a kid who seems close to one parent, and fears or makes accusations about the other parent, and the professionals take that at face value. It's counterintuitive to think that the parent the kids seem to "love" and be so close with is the actual abusive parent, and the one being accused is the better one. It's all smoke and mirrors. And courts give too much weight to "the voice of the child".
Tog--that is why dynamics
Tog--that is why dynamics like this have no business being hashed out in a court of law. Courts are not equipped to deal with mental health issues. Pathogenic Parenting aka "PAS" is a mental health issue.
belongs in a professionals office NOT in court.
I fully agree it doesn’t
I fully agree it doesn’t belong in court, but then there are NO other options available!! You can’t force someone into therapy- it is also next to impossible to get a judge to agree that an adult needs therapy if they are unwilling!
"Those weren’t his words."
"Those weren’t his words."
Like a teenager is going to insist that an invitation be mailed to his house HA! Most kids these days don't even know what actual mail is. They have never handwritten a thank you note or sent a paper invitation, EVERYTHING is done through social media or text. Totally not his words. What a crock!
Sometimes when a BM is
Sometimes when a BM is tugging so hard on the child, the best thing a NCP can do to protect the child is put down the rope on their end. No more tug of war.
That became what DH felt he
That became what DH felt he HAD to do. After years of back and forth, and court and drama and tears he felt he just had no choice but to back off.
The kids were being tormented- when DH would try to rectify things she would work double time with the PAS to make sure the kids were stressed to the max and “hated” him and dreaded seeing him (because look what he was doing to them with this court stuff!!!!). We were beyond stressed and devastated, the kids were beyond stressed and devastated and the only person having fun with it all was her!! She loved the fight, the courtroom drama, the feeling of power, the feeling of knowing DH was desperate and breaking.
The kids made it clear they wanted nothing to do with him and that him trying to see them was making them miserable. So even though they were fully misinformed, lied to, manipulated and essentially brainwashed- there was no choice but to let go, because otherwise it felt like we were participating in or codonig the abuse she was inflicting on them. If the courts can’t/won’t help sometimes you don’t really have any other choice.
ETA- it is not an easy choice, and it is one no parent should ever have to make. It is just wrong that there isn’t more help out there for people who go through this.
That is the plan after this
That is the plan after this hearing. This is a continuation of court from last November. Once this is over, we are done.
I agree, and it's best for
I agree, and it's best for the NCP AND the child. My DH's stress level went down exponentially when he dropped the rope and we didn't have to deal with BM for 3 years. He was in a much better place after a couple of years.
Losing contact with your kid sucks, but that fighting and drama is toxic.
He sounds like my OSD, who
He sounds like my OSD, who after her trip to Europe, went right back to not speaking to DH.
Reading the comments above I think that PAS is #1 issue, but also the personality of the kid somewhat. OSD was always an entitled child who made both parents jump to do anything for her - oversensitive, given a lot of power in the household, never told "no", etc. She is lacking in basic empathy/sympathy (DH has acknowledged this as has DH's sister after spending time with her) for anyone. As long as she gets what she wants, there's not even a thank you, all is smooth sailing for them - BM even admitted this to DH last year!
Let it go, let BM and your SS move on to their own lives, support and listen to your DH, vent here, but know there's nothing you can do.
Alienated kids don’t see it as family first
They aren’t only alienated from a bio parent but that whole parents family. They don’t acknowledge you as family, they ignore you and refuse to address you politely because of all the bullshit bio mum told them and they know no better
https://drcraigchildressblog
https://drcraigchildressblog.com/2014/07/29/stark-reality/
I will write it again. Einstein.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
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Sorry about all this OP. I hope things will change with Bm. What she is doing is abusive.
I actually reached out to
I actually reached out to their email like you recommended but haven't heard back.
We really aren't doing the same thing over and over as much as trying to finally finish what was started back in November. It just has taken so long to get to this point. If there isn't a flip in custody, we are done. If BM doesn't send him, oh well. If he doesn't unblock DH, oh well. This is it. If there isn't a flip we know it's over.
One day he might see the reality, but it is unlikely based on his weak mindedness and dominerring mother. Although, he might turn into a total monster and then she will expect DH to fix him. Not gonna happen. Right now there is a fighting chance, after this- done.
I thought my SS19 wouldn't be
I thought my SS19 wouldn't be back around until his late 20's, if ever. You just never know. My SS is every bit the passive sheep-boy that yours is.
Justmakingthebest
Justmakingthebest
Dr. Childress will consult professional TO professional for free. . Not you and he. I know I told you that info.
On his website is a printable PDF letter of introduction to give to your lawyer.
If only the courts would view
If only the courts would view parental alienation as abuse because the impact that PA has on a parent-child relationship is life altering for all involved. I wish parents that did this could understand the damage that they are subjecting their children to just to make the other parent suffer......Its unreal how an individual can do that to someone that they created a child with.....I'll never get it.
They wont
They wont
...the active alienator is re-creating trauma...I'll get you, I'll show you!!
I am all wonderful, you are bad bad bad. See kids say I am wonderful...see? They feel better with me, they dont feel good with you. I want them to have a relationship with youuuuuuuuuuuuuu but what can I doooooooooooooooo?????
Courts need to stay out of this,,,it is not a court matter it is a Mental Health matter.
When a kid magically returns
When a kid magically returns at 18 it is not Pathogenic Parenting. Its cp has zero use for them anymore since cs is done.
A alienated adult kid may never return until bm has passed away AND/or all bm minions have too. Very sad but it is a reality.
Adult kids of Pathogenic Parenting just dont wake UP.....because the pathogen is still present. Influence is still there either directly or by proxy, 1/2 siblings (bm's bio kids) , Aunts, Uncles, GP's,,close people who have been involved in the alienation.
It is by far the craziest thing I have ever seen and experienced. I have seen it going back a few generations. ITS NUTS. and it's very abusive. Current kids today going thru it now, will do it to their kids too. Mostly women who do this.
Actually, most alienated kids
Actually, most alienated kids do return, by their late 20's. It's not so much a waking up, as a maturing and gaining of understanding. They still struggle with the loyalty bind they are in towards the alienating parent, and that struggle goes on for years, from the research I've done.
I don't think recent work on alienation supports the idea that they never have a relationship with the alienated parent - not even Childress's work. But he's not the only person studying and working on the PA issue.
Tog that is why it is two
Tog that is why it is two separate "things" for lack of better words.
Pathogenic parenting is different than run of the mill jackass mom/dad who separates her/himself from kids sorta kinda as kids are emancipate, mid to late 20's. Child support runs dry or another $$ money grab from x.
Pathogenic will NOT end until the kid is away from active parent and anyone who participated in it. That is why early child protection is essential, no calls, no contact, no letters, no gift boxes unless Active Parent meets clinical goals of therapist. IF parent starts up again...boom no contact, no letters, no calls no goodie bags/gifts.
Adult kids wont have relationship with Pathogenic parent AND a target parent...just does not work that way. Cats are not dogs. UNLESS kid, now adult is still taking over where xbm left off--taunting, abuse of target parent, abuse of target parents family, digging for info TO abuse target parent.
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I used to think that too THANKS to Amy Baker what ever her names is....Yup give them time, they will come back to ya......
Pathogenic Parenting doesn't work that way. Is awful.
HCBM will release when she is done with them.....IF no pp is present. Remember cats are not dogs. Dogs are dogs.
Adult kids CAN have relationship BUT many will not if PP is around/flying monkeys/ minions.....are present in adult kids life.
I dont want to be redundant. I have expereience in this awful awful mess. It doesnt matter anymore. Quality of life does.
It can be Pathogenic
It can be Pathogenic Parenting as a means to an end (holding on to CS). That's what we went through. Now SS is more of a liability ($$$) than he is bringing in money. BM is homeless, jobless and unstable. Well, she always was. She was just buoyed by CS and dragging him along for the ride.
I want to believe but I have
I want to believe but I have a really hard time seeing DH’s kids coming back. The siblings all have each other, and it has ALWAYS been instilled in them to act as one person/unit essentially, so I feel like this will last a lifetime. I feel like the siblings would all keep one another in line from ever trying to reestablish a relationship once they become adults.
The mom plucked them off one by one, but she used the sibling relationships to reinforce the alienation.
He will never have a relationship with all of them I’m sure, the only hope would be that they had some sort of a falling out. It breaks my heart for DH, I wish I could fix this but I know no one can but the mom.
Notup4it....that is correct.
Notup4it....that is correct. Siblings born OF the Pathogenic parent act as one. Great observation, I have seen this too. This may also include 1/2 siblings..pathogenic parents kids from other relationships. It is bazar...now...look at Pathogenic own bio parent, and PP siblings they act as one with the current Pathogenic Parent.
Likely Granny did this to BM growing up, could also include great grandparents who had trauma they are reenacting.
You cant fix it,,,dh cant fix it and it unlikely bm wakes UP "oh wow looky what I have been doing for 1, 2, 5, 10 , 24 years, 25, 40 years"