SD now refusing to come over
Well the update is SD played the old 'I have anxiety about coming to your house so I'm going to stay with mum this weekend' card. All because DH said no to her going to this sleep over. He doesn't know how to respond to her. I told him he needs to let her know that her behaviour is unacceptable and he will be discussing it with her.
so now DH is only picking up SS. I am relieved SD won't be here but at the same time pissed off she pulled this crap with BM to undermine DH again. They have done this countless times in the past. Just classic manipulation and toxic behaviour. Just this time it's through a 10 yo and no doubt she will go to this dodgey sleepover.
DH said he now accepts he probably won't see SD at all for months on end if she keeps using 'anxiety' as her tactic to keep from coming here. BM used to use this tactic too when she didn't want to do something so he knows it's bullshit and angry that rhey both have backed him into a corner.
I might hit up the in laws and have DD sleepover there or something, as DH wants to take SS out for a one on one day trip fishing to chat with him. He is also in trouble and banned from PlayStation and playing cricket due to being in trouble at school. I could use the break. I'm so over SD and BM games.
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So BM is in contempt of the
So BM is in contempt of the CO?
Well there is no CO as it's
Well there is no CO as it's an agreed shared custodian arrangement through government pay. So, if BM makes SD stay at hers and refuses to let DH have her in his time , all DH has to do is prove that and his CS payments don't change. They just encourage mediation and legal advice if he wants to fight for his rights which is extremely expensive and long winded.
We did go as far as getting a lawyer and setting a court date and DH was already $5k deep in fees, and to be honest the outcome was most likely getting the skids full time and BM told them what DH was doing and it really negatively impacted them as they saw it as DH taking their mother away.. and we didn't want that. So DH dropped it.
It wasn't my fight and the supported DH dropping it and it sort of worked as it did shake BM up a bit and she eventually enrolled SS into the high school both SS and Dh wanted him to go (She enrolled SS into a private school behind his back and signed his part of the form with her signature- and the school accepted it!! Hence why he lawyered up and hit her hard with a court date).
On the one hand, letting SD
On the one hand, letting SD and BM have their way will only ensure SD becomes fully alienated. On the other hand, with SD's behavior being what it is, it sure will be peaceful without her there. This isn't your fight. If your DH has it in him to force her and make her behave, definitely support him. But if he doesn't or if having her there means you will have to babysit her while DH works/plays (though from what you've written your DH actually parents his kids during his time), stay out of it.
Well yeah that's it. I am
Well yeah that's it. I am just supporting his decision of him now accepting that sometimes SD won't come over and that when she does he will chat with her about it without BM there helping manipulate the dialogue. He has accepted he's lost the battle and BM has successfully PAS'd SD and she is growing up to copy her toxic traits.
He's under the assumption one day she will need him and want refuge here and when that day comes he will be there. I'm not holding my breath but time will tell. I'm just glad SD isn't coming as her behaviour is really stressful when she's here and I need the break.
This has happened so many times over the years. SD refuses to come here, lied and said we smack her, all because she wanted to stay at BMs due to going to OSHC to play with friends. Another time SD didn't want to come over as the friend BM used as a babysitter had a trampoline and we didn't, the excuse was Dh was always yelling at her. So she has grown up with BM teaching her manipulation and now at 10 she's telling DH herself through her stupid phone BM gave her.
A just Dad and son day might
A just Dad and son day might be the best thing for your ss. but on the other hand, SD gets her way again. I really don't know what you can do but I do know BM will not force SD to go w/ you so maybe it's best to give SS son pure unadulterated fun time w/ Dad?
I agree, SS needs this time
I agree, SS needs this time so DH can chat with him about his behaviour and also he wants to chat with him about what's going on with SD too and educate him that it's not acceptable. I told him taking SS fishing to have that time will be a nice bonding moment for them both too. SS loves DH as growing up he is used to BM rejecting him and favouring SD over him.
Bio mom will jump at this
Bio mom will jump at this opportunity for SD to say she has too much anxiety to come over unfortunately. This happened with my step kids. They just started saying they felt stressed etc and their mom didn't try to change any of it or encourage their relationship. It's unfortunate and there isn't much to do about it which is the sad part.
Exactly, same here. She was
Exactly, same here. She was too anxious, scared, stressed, upset, whatever. BM swoops in as the savior. It's hard to fight, court is an option but likely expensive and ultimately not winnable. And how do you physically drag a kid/teen into your car kicking and screaming? Sadly at this point, it's a losing battle because BM will always win unless DH can somehow speak with SD and getvthrough to her, but super difficult with PAS. If BOTH parents don't recognize the importance of BOTH of them being involved...unworkable.
Agreed it's very hard to
Agreed it's very hard to fight. DH asked me should he try and see SD outside her classroom today when he picks up SS.. and I said I wasn't sure that's a good idea. Being in a public place, catching SD off guard and knowing BM is in the car park waiting.. what if SD cries? What if BM wonders in herself looking for SD as she's taking a while to get to the car? It could trigger a high conflict situation.
But at the same time, he's her father and has every right to see her.
I suggested he leave it, grab SS and don't chase her. Wait another fortnight when we are supposed to pick her up again and chat to her then without BM around. It's hard but forcing her to make contact and see him when she's using an anxiety card is tricky as any action he does can make her not want to come again another fortnight and play right back into BMs hands.
DH tried the public meetings;
DH tried the public meetings; didn't work. OSD was still horrible to him. To the point of literally running away from him once.
"If you choose not to come
"If you choose not to come YOU are choosing not to come. I will not beg or chase you. You're old enough to make your own decisions and if you choose not to come here that's entirely on you."
He should remind her around every corner that it's her choice not to come around (especially around the holidays- if she expects a gift he can let her know he didn't get her anything becuase he didn't know what to get her as she's never around). There are rules at your house and she can't manipulate you into getting her way. If she elects not to follow the rules, and elects not to come over- that's not him being a bad dad, that's him refusing to bow down to her and play her game. Have fun with SS.
Yes that's some good words to
Yes that's some good words to say to her. I think putting it back on her makes her accountable for her decisions and any impact it has ensures she knows it's from the choices she's made.
He will be having a firm chat to her when she eventually does come back regarding following our rules too. Plus this is all over wanting to go to that sleepover so he will be making sure she knows he isn't stupid and can see her manipulative tactic. I mean if anyone has anxiety as a problem, I am the one riddled with it as it's like living with a mini manipulative BM when she is here and I'm protecting my bios 24/7. It's exhausting.
If she's anything like my SS
If she's anything like my SS she'll try to draw him off topic to confuse him... the point is simple- "you come to this house, you follow the rules. You don't come to this house that is 1000% your choice. I will not engage with you in a power struggle."
I can see this as a double
I can see this as a double edged sword for you... on the one hand.. one less child to deal with.. esp one that is being problematic. On the flip side, a 10 year old should not have a real say. Both of her parents should be capable of handling her "anxiety" and my personal opinion is that your DH should force this issue and have her come and spend time with her as necessary to alleviate her anxiety.
It's actually kind of starting to trigger me a bit.. using "anxiety" as an excuse to get out of things.. sure.. doing things can make us nervous.. or unsettled.. but part of growing as a person is learning how to work through these issues.. she will fail in life if she is "too anxious" to go to work.. etc..
I just saw an article that said Ariana Grande is blaming her rude treatment of Elvira to being "anxious".. but the reality is.. people like her are fully capable of doing things if THEY want to do them.. but when it is convenient.. they try to pull some cloak of mental health issue out.. to excuse it... and we need to stop letting people get away with that.
Oh 100-% agree with you on
Oh 100-% agree with you on the anxiety card being pulled as an excuse. DH actually said the same thing. It's ridiculous that BM does this herself and now she's teaching SD to do the same thing. BM is high conflict, narcissistic and a manipulative POS. She loves drama and creating chaos. There's no way she has anxiety as a problem.
DH wants to educate SD it's NORMAL to experience anxiety. It's a cop out to use it as an excuse to not want to do something. My psychologist said if we normalised this people won't be driving, there won't be surgeons, and people won't be doing normal day to day things. Everyone experiences it. We need to learn to live with it. Some people generally cannot and that's where they seek professional help. Both SD and BM have never seeked professional help for their so called anxiety.
DH is done fighting SD to come here. He has accepted she is PAS'd and I'm supporting him making sure SD knows her behaviour is unacceptable and she follows our rules when she is here.
Lest we all forget, there is
Lest we all forget, there is a big difference between a 10 year old female and a 11/12 year old female. I remember those days and girls can be nasty.
I think there is a good chance that SD was invited to this sleepover for sketchy reasons. Most 11/12 year olds would NOT invite a 10 year old to their sleepover unless they were planning a prank or were up to no good.
I had a "friend" who wanted to have a sleepover at my house. Turns out she was just really interested in my handsome older brother and they were messing around.
I'm skeptical that this sleepover is on the up and up. And I think there will be news of the older girls being mean to SD and/or getting her in trouble by sneaking out or setting her up to look silly. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I really do remember girls being so nasty at that age.
Karma may be at work in this situation.
Yes I've told DH the same
Yes I've told DH the same thing. Girls are nasty. SD befriended an older girl and got dumped as she was only pretending to be friends with her to get closer to SS. I believe these 'friends' are bad news too.
Stick to the letter of the CO
anxious Or not anxious, she comes over. And stop the game playing with her. You let her start playing this anxious game and this is the result. It's only going to get worst
There's no CO unfortunately
There's no CO unfortunately but his CS payments won't change. BM will have to pay for SD out of her own pocket for another half a week keeping her there.
She is 10, she doesn't get to decide to refuse visitation.
She is 10, she doesn't get to decide to refuse visitation. If your DH gives in now, it is only going to get worse. Everyone knows what is really going on, she wants to go to the sleep over, and BM is going to let her. I know it is hard, but what he should really do is insist on picking her up. If BM refuses, he should tell her he is going to file contempt charges. DH needs to decide now if the fight to see his kids is worth it. Because once he gives in, it will set the pattern for the future. If he won't fight for this weekend, he could insist on makeup time.
I say all this knowing if I were you, I'd be so happy not have her there!
I agree.. while I'm sure OP
I agree.. while I'm sure OP will enjoy the break.. her DH is setting a horrible precedent by letting a 10 year old make this choice.
I maintain that either parent can deal with their anxious kid.. so I would push it if I were him.. if he lets her get away with it.. it will be easier for her to keep doing it.
Maybe use her tactics against
Maybe use her tactics against her? Point out that he doesn't want her to be taken away from him.
Hmm yes but I honestly
Hmm yes but I honestly believe she doesn't really have any respect or interest in DH. She's so enmeshed in BMs ass if BM told SD the sky was purple, SD will believe it and fight anyone that tries to explain it otherwise even though she can clearly see it's blue.
I wonder if DH did this how well it actually would work. Lol with SS 100% yes. He would live with us more if he had the choice. He wants to go back to 50/50 but with DH away working schedule it can't happen.
Yes I agree a 10 year old
Yes I agree a 10 year old should not be given the choice, in the past he has fought tooth and nail when BM tried these tactics. SD was all different ages of 4,6,8 and now 10. I think now she's using the anxiety card and it's coming directly from SD, he's being careful.
He pretty much ended up telling her 'he won't stop her from choosing not to come THIS weekend but is disappointed'. And will tell her when she comes back, away from BM, that she doesn't have the choice as she is only 10.
I honestly think it's a losing battle as she will refuse to come as she gets older regardless.
So, SD will he doing a happy dance as she thinks she got away with it, but she will get a hard reality check when she comes back to ours with expectations of following our rules and being accountable for this behaviour. She doesn't know it yet as DH doesn't want to disclose that while she's at BMs.. so whatever let her think she won.
I think DH should make an appointment with a psychologist for her to make her accountable for throwing around anxiety. If she wants to play that card she can follow through with help and treatment for it. She will hate the idea of speaking to an actual allied health professional.
I think DH should make an
Yessss!! He really should do that before she gets any older - I know she's been exposed to a lot, but most 10-year-olds are not savvy enough to fool a professional into believing they have anxiety when they don't. I'd make the appointment and tell SD, "I'm concerned that anxiety is affecting your daily life to the degree that you can't even come to my house. I want what's best for you, so I think we need to work on this together with a professional before it gets any worse."
I always think of these scenarios as win-win. If the kid did happen to have anxiety (not likely in this case, but still...), then better to get her help sooner than later. If not, and she's intentionally manipulative, then a good therapist or doctor will see right through her and you'll have documentation of that. And maybe she'll hate therapy so much that she'll stop playing the anxiety card.
As the mother of an 11-year-old (yes, I'm going to brag on my child now) who has been diagnosed with anxiety after she started having panic attacks at the age of 5, I hate to hear that it's being used as a manipulation tactic. It's so real for the people who deal with it and it takes a tremendous amount of work to manage it properly. My daughter has been in therapy since she was 7 and her anxiety has never stopped her from doing anything. She's also never used it as an excuse to get out of something she didn't want to do. The kid is a straight-A student, a leader in her school, performs on stage in front of hundreds and hundreds of people regularly, travels, hikes, kayaks, and gets out of her comfort zone more than anyone I know. It's not that she doesn't experience anxiety anymore, she does. She acknowledges her feelings and then uses the strategies she's worked on for years to regulate herself so she can live her life to its fullest. She would honestly be disgusted to hear that someone tried to use anxiety as an excuse to get out of going to their dad's. It's honestly absurd that your SD even thought to try it, but it sounds like she's learned a lot of it, too much, from her BM.
Thanks for this insight. I
Thanks for this insight. I too think it's a win-win. Made an appointment and we will put her on a mental health plan which is free at the moment. So 10 sessions with a child psychologist. She will hate that and BM will no doubt ramp up but this behaviour needs to stop.
Oh hell no. Let SD know that
Oh hell no. Let SD know that if she does not come as the COd visitation schedule stipulates that her mommy will go before a Judge to answer a contempt of court motion every time she fails to surrender DH's kids per the visitation schedule. If they have that option where you live.
So many NCPs lose spine when dealing with a manipulative PASing CP. X
That nauseates me to no end. I am not an NCP, in fact I have no kids. But I was one and I was raised by quality parents. When a kid is victimized both by a toxic manipulative CP and a spineless NCP it infuriates me to no end. Those kids far more often than not are Fd for life and the odds of them having quality adult relationships or being quality parents are somewhere between slim and none having apparently lost both sides of the parent lottery.
Grrrrr!