Having a talk with DH's son this evening -- suggestions welcome
Here's the issue DH has to address tonight:
SS12 goes to [place for social interaction with peers] "XYZ" when he is with us. While there, he has transaction "ABC" with another 12yo kid he knows.
The skid goes back to mommy and as kids are prone to do, he talks about the big "what he did at Dad's house last week". Of course normal people say "Good, I'm glad you had fun with your other parent and I'm glad you have friends over there too." Not BM.
BM wrote DH an email saying that she has always disapproved of the kid going to place XYZ (we don't know why, probably because it isn't church, lol) and that she is not allowing him to go there anymore. She thinks he was taken advantage of monetarily the last time he went and she is going to punish him if his dad takes him there again. WTF. Punish the SKID for something that the PARENT allows. She actually told SS that she would punish him for a long list of "things she disapproves of at Dad's house".
For the record, DH does not Disney parent this kid. DH wants the kid to grow up to be independent and self sufficient. Part of that requires giving freedoms and choices in small doses but being there if the kid fails with those and needs his dad. I really admire that kind of parenting. BM is a coddler. But even for a coddling mother, this supposed act of getting ripped off isn't even something that would require adult interference. It was small and trivial.
DH plans to sit down with the skid and explain how utterly inappropriate this form of punishment is. In fact, it is a form of parental alienation. We don't want him feeling uneasy at our house but how can he feel anything but uneasy when we do not conduct our lives the way BM wants us to and he is going to be the one who gets punished for it? Control is a recurring theme with BM. She used to try to set rules for OUR home. She used to tell DH what the skids can and can't do when they were with us, where they can and can't go, etc. DH laughed in her face. She knows she has no influence in our home so she is going to get her way by threatening SS. This is just gross. It's like she is holding him hostage to control DH.
DH wants me to sit in on the discussion. I'm usually disengaged from skid stuff even if it occurs in my own house, but DH wants me there because he wants to drill it into SS's head that DH and I are the ones in charge of our home and when the skid is with us, we are the ones responsible for him and we are always looking out for his well-being, even if it is different from the way his mother looks out for him. I asked him to reword that last part to fit my level of disengagement but yeah, I'm the grownup in this house. I think it's wonderful that he wants to have me there to help drive that point home to the kid.
But DH brought up a very good point. He is not going to roll over on this. He is still taking SS to XYZ if SS wants to go. He is going to have to tell his son that he has a few choices. He can either tell his mother all about it and accept the consequences, wait for her to find out on her own and then accept the consequences for it, or choose to forgo one of his favorite activities out of fear. He aslo wants to give SS examples of ways to handle his mother when she inappropriately threatens him. Here the thing I need advise on: we can't think of a single example. She is irrational and unpredictable. DH spent years trying to handle her and he couldn't do it. What do we tell this kid?
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I have no idea how far this
I have no idea how far this is going to go before DH takes real action. Read my last blog. It's way worse than this one instance.
Here's some more insight on
Here's some more insight on SS supposedly getting ripped off.
He made a trade that BM thought was unequal. The thing is, she knows nothing about the item that was being traded. (She knows all about ripping people off and taking advantage of people though but that's a story everyone's already heard, lol).
DH's knew about the trade and didn't interfere. His position was that it was SS's business. SS felt good about the transaction and even if it was an unfair trade, SS learned a lesson. DH forgot all about it until BM's stupid email.
Here's what I think might have happened. SS was the recipient of a "pay it forward" act a few months ago at that same place. He was given a pricy item and the kid who gave it to him said "someday you will pay it forward too". Later that night DH, skid and I watched the movie because the skid didn't know the context of Pay it Forward. *If* the skid was ripped off (he still says he wasn't), what if he was practicing paying it forward rather than "getting ripped off"? This is very possible given the environment it happened in.
Thank you! This part is
Thank you! This part is great: If SS mentions the potential punishment, DH can tell him, "That must be frustrating. I won't keep you from going to XYZ when you are with me, but you will have to make that choice knowing mom might follow through with her punishment." That's the kind of specifics we are looking for.
And you are right, the first talk should be with BM even though it will be a repeat of things he's been going over with her forever.
If your SS doesn't think he
If your SS doesn't think he was ripped off then I have to wonder why the hell BM feels she needs to get her knickers in a knot over this?
Oh, wait, because she's another high conflict BM who can't function if there isn't drama swirling around her, giving her a chance to try exerting control where she has no business.
Seriously. Nobody has an
Seriously. Nobody has an issue here including the kids themselves. This is drama for the sake of drama. She's done it to DH for years, now she is unabashedly putting the skids through it too.
Well now that's a good point.
Well now that's a good point. This document will mean nothing to him. Some kids might listen but this kid tunes out when his parents have disagreements. It would probably just end up shutting him down, you know that thing kids do when they lower their heads, mumble "uh-huh" and "yes", don't make eye contact, etc.
If I understand correctly,
If I understand correctly, you're asking for ways to help him deal with his mom when she inappropriately threatens him? If so, there isn't really anything he can do to get out of trouble. He's the kid, she's the mom. Regardless of whether you think she's right, if she gives consequences on her time there is nothing SS or you can do about it.
About the only thing you guys can tell him on how to "handle" it, is what you've already said. Know the consequences before you do something and accept them. That's it. It's actually a very good life lesson to learn anyway.
Just a point though - SS is 12, that's pretty young. Just remember that if you teach him he can choose whether or not to obey his mom and accept the consequences if he doesn't, he's going to transfer that ability to his dad eventually too. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it has to be handles with caution. Teach a kid to be defiant and you just get a defiant and out of control teenager. Teach him to think for himself and man up to the consequences of his actions, and you'll get a mature teen - but also one that you can't "control", only guide. Honestly, I'd rather have the second one, but some people would rather have obedience, so just make sure (or have DH be sure) that he's OK with the consequences of HIS actions.
^^^this.^^^ all of it. some
^^^this.^^^ all of it.
some things are worth defiance in the face of consequenses. NOT saying this is, but my brother and i tended to weigh things out... "hmmm if i do this, this will happen. meh, not worth it." or sometimes it was. sometimes i thought it was, then went "oh wow that was SOOO not worth it... not making *that* choice again..."
at 12 i wouldnt go too deeply into it. just a matter-of-fact statement from your dh can suffice - "ss, it's time to go for such-and-such activity. if u choose to go, your mom may punish you. but i will take you if decide you want to go."
He wants the kid to be a free
He wants the kid to be a free thinker for sure. He doesn't want to act like he's condoning lying or disobedience. He doesn't want to plant these ideas in SS's head period. Again, the mature self sufficient young adult is the end goal here.
I agree!^^^ One of the
I agree!^^^ One of the options should NOT be to keep secrets from his mother and then tell him how do deal with her should she flip shit. I agree with Ally, he is 12, he needs to learn/know how to think for himself.
and if BM is THAT much of a nutter that DH is concerned for SS well being/safety, then maybe CPS or courts need to be involved.
Yeah, I hear you. He doesn't
Yeah, I hear you. He doesn't need to hear that from his dad. I do think he'd be much better off if he learned on his own that he has to watch what he talks about in front of a crazy person.
I'm not a fan of calling CPS
I'm not a fan of calling CPS at this point especially since we aren't sure if this is just a mind game she's playing with DH to try to control his time with SS. Until we hear straight from SS's mouth that he is actually being punished for these things, we need to hold off. If this is just one giant control freak threat, maybe he should just tell BM that CPS might be interested in the ways she is choosing to punish SS? Then only follow through on that if she continues.
My DD struggled with some of
My DD struggled with some of the decisions her dad (my ex) made. It took all my strength not to say "yeah, well, he's an asshole and that's typical behavior and one reason why I divorced him." But I didn't. Ever. Ok, maybe once when she was grown and out of the house.
All I would tell her is that her father loves her, and he makes different decisions than I do and different decisions that she is accustomed to. If there was a big issue, he and I would discuss, usually reasonably.
Your BM really is a fruitcake for punishing SS for something his father allows on his time. That's just wrong and more an issue between BM and DH rather than SS and BM. Do you think she'd really punish him, or is this just a threat?
I hope it's just a threat.
I hope it's just a threat. DH loves his son, if she makes him think his son is at risk he will bend to her will, blah, blah, blah. I would love to believe that this is an empty threat designed to rile DH up.
Thanks for the advise
Thanks for the advise everyone. You guys are wonderful. So in summary:
Keep to this part of the original plan: He can either tell his mother all about it and accept the consequences, wait for her to find out on her own and then accept the consequences for it, or choose to forgo one of his favorite activities out of fear and accept the consequences for it.
But omit the part about her being utterly inappropriate and omit the part about giving him advise on how to handle her.
Make BM accountable for her bad behavior using any of the proper legal channels you all mentioned.
I love you guys.
Oh heavens no! Nothing like
Oh heavens no! Nothing like that.
He was trading a piece of sporting equipment for another piece of sporting equipment that he wanted more.
I was trying not to get too detailed with it and bring philosophical differences into the equation. BM doesn't like the skids to make friends with kids of people DH and I know. We are atheists and in her simple mind that means EVERY single person we are friends with must also be an atheist (of course that is untrue) and that all of those children must be atheists too and that none of us could possibly have any morals at all (again, untrue). We've got a lot of religious hysteria to deal with on top of everything else.
The only social events and venues she takes the kids to are church sponsored.
I like that email to BM though. }:)
I think that I would keep it
I think that I would keep it short and sweet with SS. If you want to talk about the CO at all, I would just say, "There is a judge that tells people what they have to do when parents are divorced and don't agree on stuff. Our judge said that each parent is in charge at their house."
Then I would send a certified letter to BM saying what you were told and reminding her of the specific lines, etc. of what the CO says. Make her realize that you KNOW that she is punitively out to punish her son for things out of his control. Threaten her if necessary. If you guys end up in court, this would be good evidence as well as her response. [Oh, and do not let your DH verbally discuss anything with her. She needs to put any response in writing]
We have piles of evidence for
We have piles of evidence for the PAS in the form of emails where she tells DH straight up what she's doing. The big problem with her is that she has no idea that she is doing anything wrong. This is a special kind of delusion we are dealing with. Now DH is even starting to get evidence from the kids texts too. The last text his daughter sent him was "mom was right, my brother shouldn't be around you!".
Without a doubt, punishing a son who still wants to have a relationship with his dad is the underlying motivation.
Check out Divorce Poison book
Check out Divorce Poison book and Welcome Back Pluto dvd. The Dvd explains PAS in kid terms... See if it applies to your situation.
This isnt an exact match to your situation, but when BM would over react and punish ss in a way we didnt agree with we would compare it to what it is like on a job. Ss might not agree with the boss (bm) but he still had to follow the rules. Mom makes the rules at her house, Dad makes the rules at his house. Some of those rules might be the same, some are different.
We would focus on helping him cope , "what are you goinng to do now, how will you handle this".
That way we didnt undermine BM's right to make rules in her house, but we didnt have to agree with her rules. She used to emotionally punish him "you're grounded until I say you aren't". Punishments that didnt match the crime. It was very tricky to navigate.
So glad you mentioned this.
So glad you mentioned this. I was just about to write a new blog about how it all went down. DH used the job analogy.