How to say "no" in sticky situations
BM sent an eamil asking if DH is going to allow the girls to attend her family reunion the weekend of Oct 4. It's being held in SC and is approximately 8.5 hours away. She originally emailed DH in July and told him she was taking them, but completely disregarded the fact that it's on his time. He told her at that time he would give her the weekend if she'd switch days, but she blew that off.
Possible responses:
1) He says yes as long as she switches days, or just says no because it's his time per the agreement. We know she doesn't have any weekends to give (other than Christmas break which is hers this year) so that sets DH up to look like he's hoarding all weekend time (despite the change order they ALMOST finalized which gave her every third weekend PLUS split most school breaks). With a court date looming in the future, not sure if this is a great idea.
2) He says no because they have sports scheduled. This may or may not work; he knew about the request for the weekend before he signed them up for the sport leagues. But BM came close to denying even letting DH see the skids last fall when they were in TX because they had games scheduled that weekend .. and he hadn't seen them in 2 months at that point.
3) He says no because, unless they miss school time, that's 17+ hours of driving in a 48-56 hour period. It's just excessive for a 5 and 7yo to do that much traveling and get up for school Monday morning. He's not okay with them missing school.
4) He just says yes and lets them go to show he is reasonable and does compromise in the eyes of the court, but feeds and empowers BM to do this again in the future.
I know I'm probably just over-analyzing .. just trying to come up with the best solution. Is it best for the kids to go, despite what that means for DH?
A simple No works. He does
A simple No works.
He does not owe BM an explanation.
I know he doesn't owe it to
I know he doesn't owe it to her. I can imagine the backlash he'll get with a simple "no" .. although, that may be the best route. Let her flip out and email bash him over it .. I'm sure that will look great on her.
^^This just as you don't have
^^This just as you don't have to give a child a explanation on certain things you don't have to give one to BM either.
This is his parenting time - if she has the children Christmas her family can see them at that time.
Yeah, but he's the one not
Yeah, but he's the one not agreeing. She's asking for weekend time, and he'd just be denying it.
I'm not sure what the state line rules would be here. We live in close proximity to several states .. DC, Pennsylvania, and Virginia are all within an hour's drive (less depending on DH vs BM starting points). Their CO is silent on state lines; only says no out of country travel without express permission from both parents.
I don't think she'd really take the skids without his permission .. she knows it's his time. I just can't help but feel like she's trying to make him say no so she can use it against him later.
You're so right. Whenever
You're so right. Whenever DH's family visits from the west coast, or my family holds get togethers, we never demand anything extra from BM regarding time. We let people know when we have the skids so they can plan accordingly to include them if they want. If not, that's okay too.
I think the kids would
I think the kids would benefit from seeing their extended family, and little harm would be done to let them go with their mother. Why be so inflexible?
She sent an email 2 months
She sent an email 2 months ago telling him she was taking them. Not asking or proposing a schedule change, just telling him.
He tried to be flexible and offered to switch days with her. He even agreed to let her put this weekend into the change order they were working on.
She blew the whole thing off. She refused to switch any days, and then just recently threw the whole change order out the window.
This is what I'm saying though .. even though it's his time and he has every right to say no, I think a judge might see it the same way as you do. Why is DH being difficult and inflexible and not giving BM what she wants?
I agree with this. BM is the
I agree with this. BM is the one being an ass-face. Don't make the kids miss an opportunity to spend time with family they don't normally get to see because of it.
I think you're putting too much thought into it. Regardless of why you feel you feel justified in not cooperating with BM, it's a good opportunity for the kids. It has to be about them.
Have your DH make arrangements with BM to switch weekends & let them go.
BM has one sister in SC. The
BM has one sister in SC. The rest of her immediate family is all in Michigan (except her mom who lives with her). She has an aunt in Seattle, but that's it. She doesn't know anyone on her father's side. I wouldn't consider this a "family reunion" in the traditional sense. Of course we can't really prove that, and I wouldn't dare open that can of worms with BM, but it is what it is.
It just sucks .. DH is not opposed to skids seeing and spending time with their family .. but to what end? When BM wants to take them to visit Michigan and Seattle on DH's time .. he's just expected to say okay? Where do you draw the line? When his parents flew in from the west coast to visit for a week and DH kept the skids out of day care (summer camp) for 2 days to spend time with them .. she flipped her shit because she said their routine and schedule was more important than visiting distant family. The double standards just NEVER end.
Not trying to be argumentative .. I'm just venting .. it's all so damn frustrating. I can see why it's so easy to lose sight of the what's best for the kids when involved in these high-conflict situations.
Oh, I absolutely understand
Oh, I absolutely understand the irritation & frustration. Do it with the understanding that your DH will get a weekend in trade, & do it because it's the right thing to do for the kids.
You're right. It's very hard
You're right. It's very hard to do. But even with "what's best for the kids", it doesn't fly with DH. Out of a 52 hour weekend, they'd spend 18 hours driving. Unless they miss school, which I have no doubt BM is planning to do.
So what's really better? The weekend trip to visit family and missing a few days of school or attending sports/activities with their dad and resuming their normal schedule?
BM would never do us this courtesy. She would never allow DH to keep kids out of school for a family trip. But like you said, that shouldn't weigh in on the decision because it's not about the kids .. ugh. So frustrating
" But we are getting better
" But we are getting better at determining when it's worth it to stand our ground and when we should give in."
I've found that it's easier, instead of thinking of it as "giving in to BM" to think about it as doing what's good for the kids.
If you can think of it as just doing the right thing for them instead of looking at it as losing another battle to a shitty BM, it's much easier to feel good about it.
DH is pretty adament on not
DH is pretty adament on not letting them go. His attorney told him that if he doesn't let them go, it can't be used against him (legally) in court; he's just enforcing his time. She'll use it to show she needs weekend time, which he agreed to in the change order before she scrapped it.
When he's so in battle mode (which she totally incited last night), it's hard for him to view anything any other way, ya know?
I'll share the insight I got here and hopefully get DH to revisit the scenario with a new perspective this evening
I think if they could reach a
I think if they could reach a damn agreement and put the custody issues to bed, it would be so much easier to work through these situations. But they can't .. so every stupid request like this raises all kinds of "what are they up to" flags, ya know?
They normally see this aunt & cousins 1-2 times a year around holidays. It's been less this past year because they were living in TX temporarily. BM will have the full 13 day Christmas break this year, so I full expect her to see them then. It's her sister who lives in SC, and since their mom lives with BM, she usually drives up to visit.
Skids are doing okay in school; nothing great or terrible to report. They get in trouble on the bus all the time, but I don't think it's anything serious.
We're not 100% sure of the duration of the trip .. DH would clearly need to clarify that. BM's initial email with the travel info was her just telling him she was taking them the weekend of Oct 4.. it was more combative and aggressive than it was informative.
I understand what you're
I understand what you're saying. I don't really know that this is a real "family reunion"; BM's only family in SC is her sister. All of her other family is in Michigan. I can't imagine they'd all be flying to SC for a reunion, but I could be wrong. We have no way to confirm this one way or the other.
Assuming it is legit and all her extended family will be there .. it's still 18 hours in a car in a 52 hour period. Unless they miss school. SD5 will miss soccer and SD7 will miss her first dance class.
It's a mess, for sure. I appreciate everyone acting as my soundboard and letting me vent
I wouldn't say "no" outright,
I wouldn't say "no" outright, but I would ask what the plan is to making up the time. Her response would be very telling.
If she agrees to give more time, then I say it's worth going down that road and consider switching time. However, if she refuses to give more time, it's easy enough to say that this is my time, per our current court order, and because my time is limited, I'm going to have to say no for now. No more explanation is needed.
She would likely offer him
She would likely offer him any weekdays of his choosing to make up the time, knowing it's kind of a BS offer. We live an hour away (more in rush hour traffic), so weekday time isn't really feasible.
We open ourselves up to her pointing out that she currently doesn't have any weekend time to trade .. so we back ourselves into a corner. If our end game is to say no if she can't come up with a reasonable offer, then we might as well say no at the onset. Make sense?
Normally I would just advise
Normally I would just advise to say "No sorry, it's best we stick to the CO for now." Our BM is the 'give an inch, TAKE A FLIPPING MILE' type, therefore SO has stopped being flexible and for the last 6 months BM has not tried to intrude on SO's time (but she has become difficult in other areas, can never win eh)
However, with you guys going to court, it's a wee bit tricky. Court isn't really based on justice and all the righteously good and fluffy stuff that it SHOULD be based on, it's an arena of persuasion! And these kind of BM's are experts at persuasion (and acting like victims)!! Whether it IS in fact an actual "family reunion" wont be investigated by a judge (unless you have written proof from HER family that it isn't), a judge/court can only go on the "honesty" of the parties, so if BM puts on a big show about how your DH is a big ole meanie that doesn't support the children having r/s with their extended family.. it may look bad..
Just something to think about maybe, although, b/c your DH was willing to give her every 3rd w/e in the change order, the court might just give her that *shrugs*
IMHO though, your DH should send her a big fat NO!!
I'd insist that it be a
I'd insist that it be a weekend for a weekend. I wouldn't consider anything less. It can't just be what she wants...it needs to be an equal exchange of time.
I know they are saying "think about the kids" but that's what you all have been doing this whole time. She's the one who isn't considering them in this situation.