Need help figuring out weird behavior
Hi all, I wonder if anyone can shed light on a behavior that I can't figure out. SS has a love affair with money. He has taken cash from his dad's wallet, has abused bm and dh's credit cards, probably to the tune of a couple thousand dollars in terms of charging items without permission. That's not even including the times he'll push the boundaries, like ordering triple the amount of food he actually ends up eating for delivery and other indulgences. When SS was 15 yo, we were visiting his grandma (dh's mom) who has dementia but was just in the early stages then. She is a very sweet lady and I genuinely love her. SS and I were getting along relatively well back then, and I told him how lovely I thought it was that she was so doting and sweet to him. His response was, 'yeah, if she lived closer by, she'd be giving me a lot of money.' I didn't know him that well at the time, and was genuinely baffled by that response.
I'm wondering if that is just it, or if there is something else to explain a behavior that I find inexplicable. SS was diagnosed with adhd when he was a kid, but didn't want to take medication. But when he was having a lot of difficulties in highschool, his parents convinced him to try again at 16 yo. I don't know if the psych he saw was super amazing or what, but dh spent hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars on appointments to get SS a prescription and to do follow-ups. Where we are, there's a shortage of psychiatrists and adhd meds. It turned out that SS wasn't taking his meds anyway. Dh actually started counting the pills in the bottle when he started to get suspicious. What's weird is that for several weeks, SS went to all of his follow up appointments which were hundreds of dollars a pop, and would sit there and talk to the psych, etc. about what, I don't know? because he wasn't taking any of the meds. SS knew how expensive the appointments were because his mom told him. Dh would never talk to SS about how much things cost, but for some reason, bm told SS that one of the doctors were much more expensive, so of course that was the one he went with.
More recently, SS has been having anxiety episodes. He's been diagnosed with that too for a while, but didn't want to take meds. But about 3 months ago, his parents convinced him to try medication again. But again, SS went to the doctor, sat and talked to her, dh got his prescription filled, etc. After the prescription was filled, SS decided it wasn't for him and didn't take a single pill. Mind you, dh took time off of work, worried about him, spent a lot of time talking to him about this.
SS is also a bit hypochondriac. Went to the doctor's a couple times and the emergency once to check on his heart because he was convinced he was having a heart attack. Never did that pan out. Why would a teen go through the effort of seeking out medication with no intention of taking it? My theory is that he just wants his parents (or anyone for that matter) to spend money on him, and also give him attention. But could it just be those?
Love affair with money? My ass! SS is a liar and an F'n thief.
Stop trying to downplay that this kid is a criminal POS. He is what he has perpetrated. A criminal.
Categorize people by their actions and never be fooled by their words. This is no longer a young child, this is a near adult if he is not already 18. Either way, put his ass in jail.
I would.
Stop looking for the why of his bullshit behavior and stick to the what. He is making choices. He is a thief, and it is time for him to wear all of that on his arrest and conviction records.
Stop filtering his bullshit through the veneer of his supposed mental/behavioral syndrome of the month.
IMHO of course.
smh
Good thing that your MIL never lived near enough for this POS kid to get his hooks into her and her purse.
You are in Texas. The Texas system will chew this kid up and spit him out. Get him into the system where he will not avoid accountability for his choices.
Rags, I hear what you're
Rags, I hear what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing with your call on SS's character. But the weird behavior I would like light shed on is SS going to the psychiatrist office for weeks knowing that he's not even taking the meds he was prescribed for which the appointments were for (to talk about any side effects). I'm not using his anxiety and adhd as an excuse. I'm not calling the cops on my SS, but I wouldn't try to talk dh out of it if he were to press charges. But that's never going to happen. In any case, I suspect that SS will always tow the line between moral and immoral, but he's too smart to commit a crime that he'd be caught for. But whether he'll be selling counterfeits as he would like to do, or whether he'll be just a slick salesman, or maybe even go the straight and narrow. He's still only 18 and we have to see.
I am no doubt intollerant of
I am no doubt intollerant of this kind of lack of character. To the point that I advocate full consequences and completely writting them off.
On his manipulation and lies to the Psychiatrist, he has a captive audience to practice his lies and manipulation.He enjoys it is my guess. In my layman's opinion of course. Also more evidence that he is bankrupt in character and honor.
Write off. For sure. Even at 18yo. Time for him to experience the burning platform to get him to launch so he can finishing growing up on his own time and his own dime. Light it, keeping adding fuel, and let him figure it out from there once he jumps.
Rags, I know that you have a
Rags, I know that you have a SS that turned out well. He's reliable, motivated, decent, etc. It becomes challenging when SKs are not that. I don't find it reasonable to either accept him as he is or outright write him off. But trying to do gray makes it difficult to see what to do sometimes. But in terms of your analysis of the situation, I think you're on to something. A few years ago, SS was seeing a therapist (not a prescriping psychiatrist, but a talk therapist). She requested to meet with the parents every few weeks because she was concerned about his attitude, especially towards girls. Not sure what was the concern because I didn't go, but it sounded to me that in therapy, he really let loose and was totally candid. She advised the parents to make sure they put plenty of limitations and consequences for his behaviors. But as anyone who has read my posts, that doesn't happen often enough. I did read that psychopaths never use therapy for its intended purpose. They just learn better how to appear compassionate and gain people's trust to add to their manipulation tool box. Maybe that's part of the equation here. SS likes to go talk to psychs because they're a captive audience. SS only stopped going because his girlfriend took all of his time and attention.
Gray. I am blessedly free of that concept in my perspective.
Black, White. Period. Dot.
Simple concepts for my simple mind I suppose.
Is it right, or is it wrong. Apply consequences accordingly.
It works for me, and it does cause frustration to some of the people I care very much about. I deal with that on the side. I also experience some emotional backlash over the misery experienced by application of consequences to those making the wrong choices. But, if I mitigate the misery, I am failing to apply the impetus for them to learn.
My SS was never particularly manipulative or challenging. That was his SpermClan. He experienced both sides of his blended family existence. He chose one, over the other, as his life model. It was not entirely without pain and challenges. But his outcome has been pretty good over all.
I sense that your SS is repeating and even escalating behaviors and what has been done repeatedly is ineffective. Time to shake the tree, or... light the buning platform, turn up the heat, and he can figure it out for himself. On his own time and his own dime.
With his temperment he may just find that the USMC is a place that his personality can flourish ... if... .he survives BootCamp without a dishonorable discharge.
Maybe consider making his daily existance a transactional process. No key. He goes to therapy, gets a job, works, he gets let in at the end of the work day to cook, clean, and sleep, then does it again the next day. If he fails to deliver on the list, he spends the night whereever he can scrap together a leaf bed. Hot, cold, storming, not your problem. Those are his problems to solve and his lessons to learn regarding behavior and consequence. If you want to go a more milqtoast route, give him a cheat puptent and a space blanket to use on his nights without access to the family home.
Start applying misery inducing consequences and escalating them until you find a blend that works or ... .drives him off.
I guess I will work backwards
I guess I will work backwards here.
Re the meds... how do you know he was not taking them? do you have bottles full of them? OR.. do you think he has been selling the pills to his friends? Or, perhaps he doesn't like the way they make him feel? He allows them to be prescribed at the urging from his parents because he wants to do what they want but ultimately.. just doesn't like how they make him feel and can't bring himself to advocate to his parents like that?
I would also say that even if he was not taking the meds prescribed, it doesn't necessarily mean that HE wasn't getting some level of help from these therapists. Maybe talking about whatever helped him.. just an ear listening without judgement?
He could also be attending the therapy to please his parents.. he thinks that is what his parents want him to do.
and.. yeah.. he could also be acting out for attention.
I think enjoying how much it is costing is probably pretty unlikely actually.. to be honest the kid probably has little understanding of the true value of money and how hard people have to work for it.
Kids are bombarded with messages about consumption.. they may think like a lot of adults that the way you get rich is to inherit or win the lottery.. or be a professional athelete... My tiktok feed is full of pretty young kids wearing scads of designer things.
Young kids can spend money without understanding the true magnitude of it.. they don't "get" that 10 100 dollar purchases add up to 1000.
It does seem that your SS struggles with compulsivity.. he can't stop himself from over ordering (who was paying for it.. and if it was too much .. the adult should have told him to trim his order). He also wouldn't be the first kid to slip a bill or two out of their parent's wallet or purse... but they do need to learn that taking without permission is stealing.. even if it is from your dad.. that would likely have opened the wallet and given him the money if he asked. Kids sometimes sneak when they want something they are to embarassed to ask their parent's for.
I recall wanting a frilly easter dress when I was 11.. and as a confirmed dress hating tomboy... I was embarassed to ask my parents to buy me something girly.. so I did raid the pockets of my mom's coats to get enough to buy the dress I wanted. I know it was wrong.. but I'm sure there was a lot to do with my "changing body" and hormones and I was a pretty shy kid.. and got embarassed easily.. so I know I didn't want to ask them because I didn't want to be laughed at. To be honest.. I'm not sure why they never asked me where the dress came from.. it's not like I really had many.. haha.
Anyway.. a kid motivated by material things is not the end of the world.. as long as dad has taught him that hard work is how you get it. .stealing is wrong and don't count on inheritances coming when you want them... loll
Thanks for your perspective,
Thanks for your perspective, Esmod. To me, it sounds like your taking the money for a dress was a one off. For SS, it's a character thing at this point. I have never met someone so motivated by money, so maybe you don't quite understand. My SS has been caught numerous times either taking cash from wallets or in other ways spending money without permission. I feel like that's how he compensates for some of the attention he has been genuinely deprived of. And if he knew how to continue to do it without getting caught, I strongly believe that he would do so. When he was 14 or 15, his dad noticed on his credit card statement, $800 plus charges in increments of $20-$100 related to a video game. SS had saved his dad's info and was essentially buying accessories from the video game over about a month period. Dh got super pissed and gave him a talking to, made him work it off a little bit, and was convinced SS would never do it again because he seemed so sorry. Two years later, dh gave SS his credit card to get a hair cut. For weeks after that, dh kept looking for the card to no avail. When he got his bill, he noticed that there were charges that he didn't recognize. SS had held on to the card and was using it to buy him and his girlfriend meals and other stuff. When dh confronted him, SS looked at him and said 'you gave me the card,' suggesting that dh gave him permission. Dh was so disappointed because he thought that SS absorbed the lesson from the first time and seemed super contrite. But no. Btw, SS is really good at seeming contrite and saying all of the right things to take responsibility, and then the ball drops.
This is on top of other ways he's used his parents' money. Multiple times, he's used both his parents' food delivery apps to order food for himself and his friends to the tune of $150 a pop and more without asking. I think what he does is order the food on the app while he's out with his friends, and pick it up at the restaurant. I can't tell if he's doing that to "buy" off his friends. Or if he's doing it to pay back his friends (in the past, he's been known to beg, borrow, and steal from his friends if he used up his allowance). His mom cut him off years ago, but dh always tries to show trust, so it still happens on occasion, spaced out long enough that SS feels he can get away with it.
When SS started dating his girlfriend that he just broke up with, the reason he gave for why he liked her so much was that she bought him expensive gifts. I remember him distinctly contrasting that to his former girlfriend who only got him ' a stupid key chain when she went on a trip with her father.' I was like, wt actual f? I do feel sorry for SS that that's how he measures love.
My nephews are kind of materiailistic too. I think teens are. I remember loving to shop as a teen too. Or window shop since my family was pretty poor. But I feel like SS takes it to another level with his money obsession.
I also totally understand if someone wants to be cautious about taking meds. My BS took it for a while in highschool for adhd, but always had the very minimal dose, and stopped taking it when he got to college. I totally respect that and so does dh. So it's easy - just tell dad that it's not making you feel good, and stop taking it. Dh told him multiple times that if SS didn't like the meds, they would just adust the meds or he could stop. Why go to weekly follow up appointments and pretend you're still taking it? As for the anxiety meds, he did not take a single one, so he couldn't have known how it made him feel. I don't think he ever intended to take it, but he still went to all of the appointments leading up to the prescription. So my question is why? It seems ridiculous, but I do think it's to spend his dad's money.
I'm sorry, but SS is so super aware of how much things cost. He knows what $300 means and what it could buy. SS could probably estimate how much anything costs better than me. He's dabbled with selling counterfeit items on some site, not ebay, which I was strongly opposed to. I told dh that I thought it was absolutely wrong for SS to dupe people into spending $175 for an item he got online for $20. If dh or I would say anything, SS would just act like we we're too stupid to know how to make money, and ignored us. But when his girlfriend objected very strongly, he did kind of stop. Who knows now. But he knows how much things cost very well.
Your SS is going to be in
Your SS is going to be in deep doodoo if/when he gets caught selling counterfeit goods. It's not just about duping people into paying high prices, it's also about trademark infringement and the injured companies WILL go after people who knowingly deal in counterfeit versions of their goods. This isn't a teenage prank, this is a law-breaking activity.
I understand that it's a
I understand that it's a crime, but one that isn't enforced? SS's super power is figuring out what he can get away with. My impression was that selling counterfeit goods online was rarely caught. I've even seen stuff on Amazon.
I've heard that selling stuff
I've heard that selling stuff online is the easiest way to get caught. The police may not be interested but the companies who lose money due to counterfeit copies of their goods certainly do. Many have teams who specialise in tracking down copies.
Oh that's good to know. I've
Oh that's good to know. I've been angry thinking about the people that SS could potentially be duping for ill-gotten gain, but I'm glad that there is a deterent. I think dh is hoping that SS channels his pursuit of profit towards more legal, productive avenues of entrepreneurialism. Dh does talk to SS about his objections to his con, and perhaps these sites are on to him because SS cannot legit open an ebay account despite him being 18 and having a bank account.
It may be wrapped up into
It may be wrapped up into some insecurity where having less means you are less to him.. so he needs to have more to be more.
I would also say there is a difference between knowing what something is valued at.. vs knowing the value of the labor it put into earning that money. He likely sees his parents as well off and that what he is taking isn't a big deal... and it sounds like his parents have generally been pretty loose with their spending on him.. so he hasn't really learned to earn things.. and what he is doing now.. if it is truly counterfeiting.. and he is using the postal service in any way.. (or not really).. but especially the USPS.. he could be facing severe legal penalties.
Again.. for a youth that grew up with people like the Kardashian's and my sweet 16 and seeing a celebration of people who are rich.. and what they have.. it can be a very attractive thing for kids to want to have those things.. to be rich.
I can guarantee when I was growing up, I had zero idea what a hermes bag was as a teen.. and could not have named more than a few "designers".. and probably would have listed jordache and gloria vanderbilt.. haha. I guess I also kind of faced reality as a young teen when I went to a private school in northern virginia for 3 years when my dad was stationed at the pentagon. All my classmates came from a lot more "wealth" than I did.. or at least their families didn't mind spending 50 plus for a pair of sperry topsiders for a growing foot.. while mine refused... I didn't have the cute purse with the button on covers in every pattern.. I had one gunne sax dress.. they had a new one for every social occasion.. they had horses and privilege that i just didn't.. and they were not the nicest kids to someone who was a late bloomer who looked like a 4th grader in 8th grade.. haha.. and didn't dress the right part.. and didn't have all the luxuries.. my parents could afford the school.. but not all the trappings. I wish it had been a school that required uniforms.. that would have been easier to some extent.. I was wearing jumpers my own mother sewed.. yikes.. how embarassing that was for me. I was so glad to get out of that place when we moved to germany for my sophmore year in HS..
I'm not saying that it is good to encourage his obsession.. but it seems like his parents haven't done a lot to try to curb it.. and your DH seems to keep giving him opportunities to take advantage. I mean.. what kid wouldn' want to treat his kids to be the populare "big man".. tothem.. but doing it without permission needs corrections.
I do think that it is a way
I do think that it is a way of making up for some insecurity. I agree with tat. As for your other comments, I do get that materialism is in the culture. Today there's the Kardashian's; in the 80s we had Madonna. But to some extent, I feel that you're excusing his behavior. Sometimes I pause to think how I would feel if it were my BS or nephews acting in the ways SS does to get some perspective. I can't imagine them trying to sell counterfeit goods online, or try to dupe someone out of their property in any way. I also can't imagine them holding on to their parents' credit cards to charge more than they were given permission to. I put my BS on my credit card to help him build credit a few months ago. Even though I told him he could buy certain things like books for school with the credit card without asking, he still double checks with me before every purchase. SS's mom is not well off. Actually, when I first met SS at 14, he described his mom as "poor" and his dad as "rich" and he wanted to be "rich". Even today, SS will say things like, 'Wearing tight clothes makes you look rich. Don't I like rich?' Dh is like 'what does that even mean?' That's why his mom was quick to cut him off her food delivery app because he was spending money that she couldn't afford. But he had no guilt about it and would do it again. I don't think BM would win any awards for mothering, but I do feel sorry for her that he's so willing to victimize her for the sake of being popular with his friends or whatever.
I'm not so much trying to
I'm not so much trying to excuse it.. or say it's right.. I'm trying to give some explanation of why he may have gotten some of these ideas.
There have always been people who are rich.. but Madonna was a pop star who one might say earned her fame. Kim Kardashian? Well... aside from being related to a lawyer that participated in a scandelous murder trial..she became famous for some other reasons really.. and one might not really consider the reasons all that worthwhile. It's not like she created music.. she was someone that was part of a famous for "existing". phemnomena.
I kind of laugh at what he says.. "wearing tight clothes makes you look rich".. uh.. actually.. no really it doesn't SS. The REAL OLD MONEY rich aren't wearing tight clothing.. they aren't wearing brand labels on every item they own. They don't talk of their money or being rich.. that would be something only someone embarassingly inappropriate would do.
But.. what is more concerning is that his moral compass seems very bent. You don't trick people with fake copies and pass of counterfeit goods to make money. It's not legal... and it's immoral to lie. That's a failure of his parents to instill a sense of right and wrong. You can LOVE money.. want to be RICH.. (not really a problem wanting to be successfull).. but doing it in an underhanded way is not commendable.
And.. here is another REASON. (I'm not trying to make an excuse.. but if we understand what may be driving it.. then there may be ways to approach it I guess). His mom was not well off. I'm sure he felt embarassed by that.. perhaps friends had pointed it out.. perhaps he didn't feel like he fit in at school because of it? He had friends who valued looking good.. and he couldn't do it etc..
But what to do about it? Obviously.. not much you personally can do. he isn't your kid. I might dryly point out that when he says rich people wear tight clothes or some stupidity.. you might say.. Actually SS.. truly wealthy people don't necessarily wear tight clothing.. they don't wear designer labels on their chest.. they wear clothing that fits and is quality made... but I'm talking Real old money.. not the flash in the pan "new rich" that don't have much class.
Or when his business comes up.. muse.. "I wonder if the prison jumpsuit you get to wear will be tight enough to show how rich you are for selling counterfeit goods? You think they will have them in your preferred color? or just orange?"
Oh.. and if you are inclined
Oh.. and if you are inclined to approach his dad.. you could point out that he is doing his kid zero favors by turning a blind eye to the stealing and the counterfeit selling. That his kid is getting old enough to face real consequences.. and his furture employers are not going to be as forgiving when he uses his company card on personal stuff.. they will fire him. That if dad doesn't grow a spine now.. his kid is going to have a difficult life.
Sure.. money and success is great.. but not at the expense of stealing or cheating other people and breaking the law.
It's truly laughable. "Rich
It's truly laughable. "Rich people do this and that." My dh was like 'what does it mean to look rich?" It's like a cartoon version of what it means to be wealthy. My sense is that for SS, rich just means "good". For some reason, that's how he divided up the world at a young age - rich=good; poor=bad. By the way, we're not rich, but compared to BM we are. She has held a full time job for 2 years in total since the divorce. Before that, I think it was only a year she's worked full time since being wih dh during their 13 years. She got fired from her last job because she was mouthing off (I don't know why a grown woman can't restrain her speech if her boss calls her on it, but that's what happened).
At 14, I remember SS saying to dh that one day, SS will be so rich he'll sit around ordering everything he wants from amazon while his butler serves him. He said he'd get a butler for dh too. He all expected dh to thank him, but dh was more like 'wtaf'? Dh is a union guy, and does not relate to any of this talk at all. I think interactions like that has forced SS to be less vocal about his obsession with being rich, but I think that's still at the core of his identity.
As for your trying to make sense of SS's treatment of his mom. I think things are better between them, but it's really toxic. They have called each other all sorts of nasty things. Once SS became demeaning towards her and told her she was a "lonely f**k" when she tried to ground him. She has been single since she broke up with her boyfriend who she cheated on dh with. That was 4 years ago, and I do think she has been lonely. She alienates people, including family, frequently. Dh couldn't believe how mean SS's words were. Neither of us can fathom how any teen could say that to his mom or anyone else. To shame her for being alone? Ugh. BM is a narcissist and has perhaps deserved some of SS's animosity, so there's a lot to that background. But I would definitely push back on your suggestion that he feels bad about exploiting her. If he had the chance, I think he would take even more if he could. He has been popular among his friends from middle school who are still his closest friends. He hasn't managed to make many new ones. The fact that he has been able to sustain friendships for so many years always keeps me questioning my own perceptions. Maybe I'm being too harsh and unforgiving, etc. Look at how popular he is with a very nice group of kids, now teens. IDK.
I think that there is way to
I think that there is way to much time and far to many resources waisted on this kid. It is 18. Stop worrying about why it does what it does. Start focusing on application of consequences for what it does.
Why, at some point, is a waste of time. What ... matters.
IMHO of course.
Does SS smoke weed?
That might explain some of his anxiety, munchies/food orders, stealing $$$. Maybe his friends front him the weed & he buys them food?
Just a thought based on my experience with xSS24 when he was a teenager living here.
Something like that is very
Something like that is very plausible. SS doesn't smoke weed. When he was 15, he did a whole bunch which left him feeling weird and paranoid, and he never did it again. But he will spend beyond what he has, borrows from friends, and then owes them. But I also think that he could be just trying to buy their good will.
So now the bank robber
Just hve a love affair with money ? That's what jails are for. It's a country club for money lovers affair people. That's where SS is headed for. Instead of teaching him that you work for money. They let him take it. Stop the stupidness. If the parents want to stop it they can. Kid doesn't see the light of day, with out every electronic device taken away. He gets up gies to school cineschone and that it. No friends no contact with the outside world. No sports, plays. No nothing until he changes