Borderline Disorder or Tendencies Support Group?

Forums:

Hi all, I wanted to post to see if anyone was interested in sharing stories and giving support for stepkids/teens/adults with borderline personality disorder or tendencies. Thanks to a suggestion by Banksiarose on another thread, I looked more into this diagnosis in regards to my SS. I read a book called When Your Daughter has BDP" by Daniel Lobel, which has been really insightful. I think women are more frequently diagnosed with the disorder, thus the title, but it seems to apply to kids/teens generally regardless of gender. I really recommend it for anyone struggling with caring for a SK who might have this. It puts a name to behaviors that would otherwise be baffling, and it also provides ways to enforce boundaries, which is hugely important in managing someone with BPD.

Do you relate to these symptoms in your SK? -Associates nudges towards independence as abandonment. Is likely to fail to launch. -Is quick to anger, highly emotive. -Uses mean, abusive language in order to elicit guilt from parent as a manipulative tool. -Treats love like a competition when it needn't be. -Requires instant gratification for needs/wishes. -Often breaches physical and social boundaries (e.g. take parents' belongings and doesn't return them or cash from wallets).

These are just a few symptoms. The author argues that you cannot parent a kid with BPD in a normal way. You have to use special techniques that strictly enforces boundaries. My dh is very interested in getting his 18 yo to launch, so I'm going to use that as a carrot for applying some of the new techniques I've learned. For example, next time SS is texting and calling dh in a fury because of some perceived "emergency", I'm going to encourage dh to gently encourage SS to be more independent and trust himself to handle the problem. SS needs to sit with his emotions a little more and not just run towards his dad (or sometimes a friend who he's tagged as his "person") like his head is on fire. Constantly giving him attention every time he demands it, I believe, is "feeding the monster" (Lobel's term for enabling and feeding the negative manifestations of BPD). Ultimately, no one wants the BPD to go unchecked. It's not good for anyone, and especially the kid.

Parenting with boundaries is

Parenting with boundaries is the "normal" way and has been for countless generations. That this author attempts to package Standards based parenting with boundaries as something new is ballsy and pathetic. IMHO.

Only when standards based parenting was abandoned for coddle based bullshit did we start to see this behavioral bullshit so many later gen entitled failed parenting shit spawn exhibit.

Finding excuses for the behavioral bullshit affiliated with the victim progeny of bullshit parenting has been exploited into a $Milti-Billion pseudo-science industry that does little more than support jobs for the otherwise unemployable pseudo-scientists.

IMHO of course.

A true quality therapist is worth their weight in gold. Sadly, those are so rare as to be the proverbial unicorn.

(said with a grin-based phsychology)

I think you might just have Oppositional To Crap Parenting Disorder!

Yes!

It appears to be a common affliction here!

Seriously though, why is Crap Parenting Disorder a 'thing'?!?!

Finally! A Dx that explains

Finally! A Dx that explains me.

I AGREE with RAGS

Every single word he wrote.

The author was saying that

The author was saying that most kids want independence when they are ready for it. A baby is spoon fed by his mom, and then he starts to reach for the spoon, and then wants to feed himself, and after that, there's no need for mom. He crawls, walks, and then runs. And they'll take pride in these things. Human beings naturally want independence. So what he means by "normal" parenting is that parents can basically rely on their kids wanting their freedom and independence, and parents just need to put in guard rails. It's really different when the child doesn't want independence and they fight tooth and nail against it because they perceive it as abandonment. If the natural desire for autonomy is gone, how do you then proceed? Drag them towards freedom??

BPD kids will fight back against their own autonomy and will instead use strategies that encourage codependence, like using abuse to guilt trip, etc. I think it's super helpful to know that they're willing to cripple everyone around them in order to feel "safe".

I do agree that parents coddle their kids more today than before. I think in some ways it was for the better, and in some ways for the worse. I taught my BS to equate freedom with responsibility; more of one always went along with more of the other. The desire for more autonomy was the driver for him to accept more and more responsibility over time. But I don't know what the heck I would have done if he didn't want more freedom. I did coddle him too much, in my opinion. I regret some of it, but I don't regret attending to his needs and feelings, and guiding him to process his emotions and not just ignore them.

I find it weird that SS will spend loads of time just sitting by dh on a Saturday. SS is looking at his phone the whole time, waiting around to pounce on dh for time to talk, go for a drive or whatever presents itself. He's 18. It's just baffling. I think this diagnosis is a good lens to understand what's going on. When it makes sense, I want to be able to remind dh that these behaviors are not conducive for launching an 18 yo. Don't indulge this type of dependence. Don't interpret it as love. It's a disorder.

Hmmm.

IMHO successful parenting is more a process of pushing a kid towards adulthood/freedom rather than dragging them. Dragging is a process that pulls the kid toward the parent ultimately causing a failed parenting effort and a failed kidult rather than a confident accomplised viable adult.

IMHO a parent's job is to create a viable adult human being and not a codependent attached at the hip unviable failed adult.

A push parenting process seems to be far superior to a pull/drag parenting process IMHO.

Interestingly, kids that are raised to step out on their own rather than being dragged along as a never ending fixture in their failed parent's lives are far happier, far more successful, truly independent, and have high quality life long relationships of mutual respect and true closeness with their successful parents. All while making lifes, homes, and families of their own.

Like you, I found the Daniel

Like you, I found the Daniel Lobel book extremely insightful, although as I am now estranged from SD29, haven't used any of the techniques of dealing with her behaviours. DH, however, has been in therapy for 2 yrs and has greatly improved his boundary setting with her. She is given to sudden anger and using abusive language as a manipulative tool, but if she does this now - on the phone, DH tells her he is going to end the call, and does, if she doesn't stop.

As you say, the Lobel book puts a name to behaviours that would otherwise be upsetting and baffling, and I would recommend it to any fellow Steptalkers that have SKIDs or indeed bio kids with BPD.

I say this as someone who had

I say this as someone who had a history of wanting to dig in and study behaviors, look at them under a microscope in order to try to grasp and understand what is going on. The purpose? To control the situation.

It is exhausting. It is time-consuming. And, when it comes to trying to fix it, it becomes co-dependent. For the most part, especially when dealing with personality disorders, it's useless. Imagine what your DH would say if you told him you have diagnosed his precious with BPD. That you want to give your DH ideas on how to deal with/handle SS is interesting in that your DH seems to be fine with the way things are. In fact, DH is a big part of the problem because he has enabled the behavior and clearly gets something out of it. I understand wanting to fix the situation, but I think the fixing at this point is between you and DH rather than trying to navigate and play defense to SS's behavior. You see a problem. DH and SS don't see a problem--at least not at the level/depth you do.

Interesting what Kes writes: The focus is on her husband himself learning how to deal with her SD without Kes diving into techniques to deal with her. As with addiction, your DH needs to admit there's a problem before anything can change.

As they say, you can never be a prophet in your own country

or a therapist to your own family (even if you are an actual therapist).

Those are good points. I do

Those are good points. I do sometimes feel codependent in my focus on managing my life with SS, and yes, I do think that scrutinizing is a means of trying to exert some control over the situation. SS takes up an outsized space in my head already, and that is totally at odds with what I actually want. I'm learning that situational factors can play such a big part. Dh has been a lot better about maintaining boundaries with SS and BM, which makes me feel a lot more relaxed, which in turn makes me much less prone to ruminating on SS and what he will or won't do next and get away with it. So if that's the solution, it would be misguided for me to blame myself for obsessing over SS. Sure, I don't want to obsess over my bully, but me willing myself to stop it isn't going to be the sole fix.

I definitely do not plan on telling dh that I've diagnosed SS with BPD. I have framed my recent readings as one of encouraging teens to launch and become independent, responsible young adults. A lot of the same insights and advice fit both categories very well.

Devoting my time and energy to this topic is mostly about helping myself and dh manage life with a demanding teen/adult child. How we interpret behaviors matters, right? If dh sees SS's upset as stemming from hurt and sadness, then he's going to respond very differently than if he sees the upset as a tantrum over being denied indulgence. I think guilt is such an obstacle to seeing clearly. Lobel talks about how fundamentally all parents want to feel like they're doing a good job. It is absolutely debilitating to think that you are failing your children. It's just innate in our dna. In the recent past, SS being upset and disappointed hobbled dh from the get go. If you think something is hurting your child, you're going to stop it immediately. But with a little help, I think he can reframe SS's upsets to see them as an immature failure in managing emotions. SS has got to do better to be able to function as a grown up. But we'll see. Dh's recent changes are still in the early stages.

The hardest part to all of

The hardest part to all of this is finding good adolescent mental health providers and being able to secure a formal diagnosis as "labeling" adolescents is frowned upon in the profession.

We had 100% custody of my DH's younger daughter from fourteen on. She went through four therapists in five years, and despite presenting the classic symptoms of BPD, we couldn't find a professional who would treat her for it.

I read that BPD is one of the

I read that BPD is one of the only mental illnesses that can be diagnosed in teens. Finding a good therapist is not easy, I agree. SS went to a good one for anxiety, but then stopped going once he met his girlfriend and he decided it was stupid. That therapist didn't diagnose SS with anything, but repeated to DH and BM every time they spoke that they should institute and enforce more boundaries.

Because:

a. Therapists that want to work with adolescents are in the minority and must enjoy a special kind of torture,

b. Most therapists won't work with cluster B personality disorders because that is certainly a special kind of torture and comes with high therapist burnout rates and marginal progress, if any, for the patient.

Diagnosing BPD in young people is generally frowned upon as it comes with a huge stigma (nobody will want to work with that patient). Therapists and psychiatrists are reluctant to diagnose it, because of the risk that the parents/the patient/other virtue-signalling progressional will come at them, demanding to justify it, and therapists already have a lot do deal with on a daily basis. So they will skirt around it and most likely will be happy to see the back of that patient and their family.

Kids with mental disorders

Have mental illness. There no logical to mental illness. There nothing you can do environmental, as in going to that fair, exter time going fishing. The older the kid gets the stronger the illness becomes. Some illness don't show until teenage years, or young adults. My SD was a little slow, had difficulty in school. Looked like she needed exter help . The school never said what they really was thinking. Afraid of being sued . We didn't know she was total off the wall until high school. There was nothing anyone could do about it. Except meds to keep her calm,

There was nothing in her childhood we could of done to change any of this. I hope. I do feel guilty that I didn't do more. But what ever I did or didn't do was way more then the BF did. I still can't understand how you are living with a man who was off the wall and have kids with him and it's not her fault

Kids with mental disorders

Very complex situation.

It is often far easier for the 'outsider' with a 'fresh eye' to see patterns/behaviors and realize there is something amiss, whether it be simple misbehaving or psychological issues. Many parents are not able to accept these behaviors/issues and tend to resent the messenger. Is it not wanting to accept their child is not perfect (nobody is) or guilt that they may have had something to do with it? We can offer support and we can educate ourselves to minimize the impact these behaviors have on us personally, our marriage, and the rest of the family.

In my professional opinion, OSD falls into the Cluster B category...Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, and Antisocial Personality Disorder...plus alcoholism and disordered eating. In my heart I do not believe there is a 'fix' for her. By family estimation, 30+ attempts at treatment. We have had the discussion many times that until she owns her nonsense, there will be no improvement in her behavior. She has a complete lack of self-awareness and empathy; in short, she is never the problem. She is always the victim. Even after an unprovoked, rage-fueled incident she will blame her victims. Boundaries set and enforced; they will not change unless her behavior does.

Totally agree with the fact

Totally agree with the fact that parents/family have such blind spots when it comes to children's behavior for many reasons. It feels like it's been a slow, painful grind to get dh to see some hard truths about SS. It was as much about setting forth the right ideas, as it was about disarming the defensiveness and sensitivities in dh about some of the more unseemly characteristics of SS. I don't think I could have sped up the process even with the best arguments and strategies. It just took time. But I do think dh is coming around to seeing that the best thing for SS is not necessarily giving him everything that he wants right now; that the best things might be him not getting what he wants right now for better future outcomes.

But if it sounded like I was trying to fix or change SS, I didn't mean to. I think that we can influence how he behaves to a certain extent by staying firm with boundaries, etc. But what I want to accomplish does not hinge upon SS making substantial changes to his personailty and character.

I understand this…

...it was the same with my husband too. He had not ever considered that OSD's behavior was abusive! I thought, "how could you not"? Yes, defensiveness often comes along with this awareness. This awareness comes at their pace, which can be so frustrating when we are able to clearly 'see' and define what is going on. Not becoming defensive is a learned response; it takes effort to stop, not react, and give honest consideration to what is presented. It can be hurtful to 'see' loved ones as they truly are, and not how we wish them to be. Some are never able to acknowledge this truth.

You are right, we can't change others but boundaries may prompt a change in behavior. I had the most awful thought the other day...it seems my OSD hates me more than she loves her dad. I can think of no other reason for her to continue her abuse towards me which has resulted in a drastic change in their father/daughter relationship. She is so sick that she blames my presence in her dad's life for the change, not her behavior. She continues to dig in her heels and escalate the hateful, abusive words and actions. It makes me sad for everyone. Even knowing her issues, I was prepared to love her because she is my husband's daughter, however she has not given me even a hint of anything that I could like, much less love.

I do think that my end goal

I do think that my end goal is ultimately to support DH in his relationship with SS. Part of the problem for me is that I don't always know what to expect or ask for. Today, SS asked/demanded (by text and phone) about a dozen times if he can come over to do laundry since we have a washer and dryer inside the home, but his mom doesn't. Dh is off from work today, so he could have easily picked him up. This is exactly the kind of thing that would leave me feeling uncertain and anxious. My reaction would be a sinking feeling that I don't want SS to hang around here for hours on a non-visitation day just to do laundry, which he could do at a laundry mat. But I would also feel guilty about standing in the way of SS being able to take advantage of our machines. Isn't that the nice, parental thing to do? On dh's part, he would be happy to hang out with his son during that time, and would typically be upset with me if I resisted accomodating what seems to him a reasonable request. But it's been easier for me to draw the line since learning about this BPD stuff. I can see SS's upset for what it is - a mix of impulsive outburst from entitlement and a manipulative ploy to guilt his dad. I'm also more clear about why it's important not to "feed the monster". It only worsens the disorder if one caters to their unjustified sense of entitlement. On dh's part, I think he's a little bit more open to the idea that we should be encouraging SS to be more independent and self-controlled. Last week, SS had a little melt down and was texting and calling dh dozens of times (he was anxious about something). I talked to dh about encouraging SS to trust himself more to handle things. If you're impulsively outsourcing the care of your own emotional life to others all the time, you're not learning to sit with it and manage on your own. I think that spoke to DH. For whatever reason, dh told SS 'no' to coming over today without even having to ask me. He said he did that for my sake, and I thanked him. I was so glad to hear that because dh relaying requests made by SS to me in and of itself feels like pressure because it's implied that he's okay with it and wants me to go along. The fact that SS was so relentless in his insistence that he come over to do laundry does highlight how entitled SS is. Since dh doesn't say 'no' too often, I don't think he sees this side too often, but I think it's very telling. Even if my DS disagreed with something I said or did, I can't imagine him trying so hard to steamroll me to do his bidding. Hopefully, dh sees the dysfunction in that and makes him want to draw lines more. Would dh want SS to act like that with bosses? friends? etc.

But it sounds like not too many people are interested in discussing step life with this angle. That's okay. I do feel that intuitively, people on here give good advice on setting boundaries and not caving into emotional blackmail, which is relevant to this topic.

Respect.

I have much respect for your end goal of supporting your husband's father/son relationship.

Every situation is different and sometimes the abuse and fallout is so severe that one has to takes sides. Not doing so gives a green light for the abuse to continue. Right now my support is for my husband as he navigates the realization of how sick his daughter is and that she will likely never be a truly functional adult. It is tough and heart breaking.

Overcomplicating is a common parenting failure point IMHO.

What is it? Why? How do we fix it? etc....

While keeping it simple may appear to many to be uncaring, it is the most effective demonstration of actually caring. Caring about actual improvement and resolution rather than the never ending search for an excuse to justify the why of failed parenting in one's own circle of parental influence.

KISS works. Simple works.

IMHO simple is a binary analysis. Is the Skid behavior reasonable or not. 1 or 0. Simple.

If yes, then build on it. If not. Contain it with standards of behavior and standards of performance which the reasonably behaved kid is already working within and the kid who is not reasonably behaved is not. That containment requires firm unmoving boundaries and a clear message to the ill behaved spawn to behave... or suffer.

The never ending search for the why just distracts from a direct simple resolution. Sure, get the kid into therapy... with an actual quality therapist who clearly understands who they work for and what they are to deliver. If they can't or won't do that, fire them and find one who can and will deliver.

The kid gets no say but they do have a choice. Comply or suffer. That is simple, elegant, and effective IMHO.

Comply or suffer….

I have given this much thought. I agree. This is true with life in general...school, work, family, friends, etc. This definitely applies to 'functioning' individuals; however is it different for the underfunctioning? Do they get free passes? Do most people not want to deal with their ugliness and abuse, so they acquiesce because it's easier? Scratching my head, food for thought....

Confrontation is

Confrontation is uncomfortable for just about anyone. I have found the most challenging aspect of enforcing standards of behavior and standards of perfornance is to apply consequences without punishing ourselves of the rest of the family who is performing to standard.

What I learned is... the consequence has to focus on the one perpetrating the infraction. Isolation is an effective way to do that.

At first when SS was living the consequences of poor choices it was as much a punishment to his mom and me as it was to him. Then... we adjusted. We decided that rather than limit our own enjoyment of life to facilitate his living of consequences we would adopt the "If you are screwing around when you are supposed to be working, then you can work when you are supposed to be relaxing, playing, etc..."

That took the form of an empty room in our home that had an antique wooden school writing desk, a reem of lined paper, and a pen or pencil with no ability to erase. He wrote sentences. Countless thousands of them. All in perfect hand writing, perfect spelling, perfect grammar, at a rate of 120 to 180 per hour depending on the length of the sentence assigned. The sentence focused on the infraction.

When we wanted to go out to dinner, he came with us. But the second we arrived home... sentences in the isolated room. The second he got home from school, he did his homework and showed it to us. Then... sentences in the room.

It was an exceptionally effective consequence. It did not punish the rest of us. We got on with life while he focused on learning lessons. It has even turned out to have a life long benefit. Our kid has the most beautiful handwriting.

As it turned out, our kid was Dx'd with ADHD as an adult. Whick explains some things we dealt with when he was a kid. None of his Docs, etc.. ever indicated he had ADHD though we did ask.

So, no. Even the underfunctioning do not get a free pass. Standards apply and they are applied in an age appropriate manner or a manner appropriate to the underfunctioning leaning toward a standard that stretches the ability of the underfunctioning.

Our son is a man of honor, character, and standing in his profession, life, and community. Over the years he has on a number of occassions thanked us for raising him with rules and boundaries. Though he does grumble about having to be the one to fill out any manual forms at work since he has incredible handwriting.

Sorry, not sorry, kid.

But your mom and I are incredibly proud of the man you are.

Yes!

This is a great example of holding all accountable! You do it. I do it. I am questioning how many people do it? After reading the nonsense that people on this site deal with, observations in the workplace, listening to the news, etc. I don't think many actually hold people accountable. My observations tell me that the functioning compensate, deal with nonsense, etc. while the underfunctioning continue to underfuncion the majority of the time. Wish I knew a 'fix' for that.

I am a commited fan of the

I am a commited fan of the constant application of a foot up th asses of the underfunctioning. Their outcome is theirs to suffer and the duty of the functioining to force the underfunctioning to life. This model has to start at the first inkling of underfunctioning and continue in an scalating age appropriate manner if that behavior continues.

If.. there is not some legitimate condition driving the underfunctioning.

It is not a mystery why the underfunctioning underfunction. They are the ones who look decades older than they are, they are the ones standing outside of work smoking like chimneys, the ones who leaver early for breaks and come back late, the ones with the incessent excuses for why they are late for work. Nothing that is ever within their control of course, the ones with fill in the blank drama, they are the ones who don't even make any effort to even underfunction and choose to not function at all....... then cry about it.

I agree with your main point,

I agree with your main point, Rags and Trudie, which is that people should be held accountable, and I like your thoughts about how people should suffer the consequences of their own choices and actions; other people shouldn't have to pay the price. That is a really good lesson for me, and one I'm still learning, because I have very codependent tendencies. I'm learning that holding people to account is good for everyone, and maybe we would have less underfunctioning people in the world if their parents also held them accountable. I'm realizing that this is a good thing for them. Not only does it teach responsibility, but I also think it empowers them to make changes, build skills, have more self control, etc. One of the things I read in the book is how BPD kids look to others to do for them because in the end they don't really trust themselves to do things, which is sad. In a twisted way, the more dh caves into SS's demands, the more it disempowers SS to do for himself. And I think that the number one reason why people are excused and not held to account is because we feel sorry for them. I was reading about how psychologists added the identification with virtuous victimhood as a fourth universal characteristic of the dark triad (tetrad) personailty. In other words, victimhood almost always manifest in a malevelant personality alongside narcissism, psychopathy, and machiaveillanism. Presenting yourself as a righteous victim is the most effective way to deprive people of money and favors. People are far more likely to contribute to a gofund me account, for example, if the recipient was harmed while doing a good act, and less likely if the person just needs money for something he wants. And identifying as a righteous victim makes it far more likely that you will try to deprive people of these things. It has something to do with the fact that if you feel victimized, you feel that you need to be compensated. Since the world has been unfair, you feel justified to take more. Identifying with victimhood is way different than actually being victimized (say, in a crime) in that it is a perpetual identification for life. SS frequently tells stories where he is the victim, and he definitely tries to drum up or amplify emotions to get dh to feel sorry for him and give him what he wants. As his biodad, dh finds it really hard to say 'no' when SS is feeling sad or anxious. My problem with that is that it is impossible to tell whether SS is faking it or if it's genuine. Even when it's genuine, SS often co-opts it to further his agendas. So back to your point: stop letting feelings dictate your whole life (and everyone else's life), and learn to manage them so that you can take responsibility, respect other people's boundaries, and be able to follow through on your word. Emotions should not substitute for good judgment. Emotions are just barometers for how we're reacting to the things that happen in the world.

But I think relationships and people are more complicated than how you depict it. I feel like reading the book and applying the principles have actually helped me to understand what's going on and to help encourage dh to hold the line when it comes to boundaries. I had a hard time defending my line with the the three of them - dh, SS, and BM. I didn't quite realize to what extent that I was always feeling like the ineffectual fourth nobody. It's like SS wants to come over all of the time, dh wants to see him, BM wants to get rid of him. At some point, dh did start asking me if it was okay before answering SS, but in asking, he was giving me the vibes that everyone is good with this and that if I said 'no' then I was creating problems where there was none. What if you can't even decide what the problem is or who is causing the problem? I think a lot of SMs get confused because we all want to be good people and caring guardians of children. That is ingrained in our very dna. But that cripples us when we're put in a situation to be guardians of other people's children who are at cross-purposes with us.

Dh and I have done a lot of talking this past week, and I think we're on the right path. What I learned was that dh does see that SS manipulates to get his way. I actually thought it had more to do with blindness to what SS is doing, but that's not the case. It turns out that dh overlooks the manipulative behavior because he is more focused on catering SS's feelings and wishes which the manipulations were in the service of. But I think dh realized that it is not good to allow SS to constantly manipulate the situation in his favor. The book helped me to encourage dh to stop giving reasons (manipulative kids use them to negotiate), hold SS accountable for his own feelings and choices, and allow him to process them rather than to just explode and demand everyone to make it good for him. I actually encouraged dh in the past to provide reasons for making the decision that he and BM did. When I met them, BM was simply dolling out random, frequent, and severe punishments without ever even talking to SS about what he did that was a problem, and how he might address it. I encouraged dh to make consequences more in line with what SS did and explain to him how to reason so that going forward, he can make more informed choices. But this is where the book helps: you can't use the same parenting techniques on a child with BPD. Providing reasons to a child with BPD actually gives them meat for negotiating, and that has to be shut down. The BPD child has to be told 'not everything is up for negotiation', like other people's wishes and preferences, and rules in the work place, etc. I don't know. Are these insights intuitive or does it take some research to realize these things? I tend to read a lot.

I'm glad you found the book

I'm glad you found the book useful. Just be wary. Past behavior being the best indicator of current and future behaviors, do not question whether what SS is flapping his lips about is legitimate or manipulative. Past behavior indicates it is manipulative so I advise keeping him confronted on that manipulation. It it turns out that it was legitimate, point out how his constant crap makes him untrustworthy and keep him in the accountability box. He only gets out of it by demonstrating many, many, years of trustworthy reasonable behavior. If his lips are moving, he is manipulating. Never forget that.

As for DH saying he recognizes the manipulation, etc, etc, etc... I suspect that is just DH telling you what he thinks you want to hear. Tell him words are done and to "Show (you) don't tell (you)."

If he will not take effective action to fix this crap and get his failed family progeny in line behaviorally, he is only paying you lip service.

Keeping the simple focus on past behavior being the norm for these two, neither of them are trustworthy. Nothing they say or do can be trusted or considered to be more than what it is as defined by their past behavior.

Life and relationships are complicated only if they are allowed to be IMHO.

I went through therapy both while persuing couples therapy when trying to save my first marriage, and more powerfully, individually after XW walked out of what turned out to be our last couples therapy session and moved in with her geriatric fortune 500 sugar/baby daddy F-buddy. My 5 mos of individual therapy allowed me to rediscover the man I liked being and restored my confidence (some would say over confidence). 26 was the worst year of my life. Divorce and all of the related upheaval, etc.. But it was also the start of the rest of my life living well, growing as the person I liked, etc... I did not cry about the divorce after I finished therapy, I got on with living my best life. My XW called me crying a number of times, she initiated unneccessary battles over things that were already stipulated in the divorce decree.

I moved on to finishing undergrad, grad school, and a life with an incredible beautiful brilliant successful woman. We just celebrated our 30th anniversary. We raised a great young man of character, honor, and standing in his life, profession, and community. The KISS (Keep It Stupid Simple) model has been integral in those successes. We used the KISS model when managing the SpermClan CO years. Raising our son (my SS who asked me to adopt him when he was 22.) with standards delivered wonderful results. His three younger also out of wedlock Spermidiot spawn half sibs by two other baby mamas included spawn #2 who is on the dole, #3 who is in prison, and #4 who is not far behind the inmate.

I struggled with overcomplicating things when I was working through the divorce and recovery. Any number of recommended self improvement and dealing with the the syndrome of the moment tomes. Some were useful but most were a distraction, focused on justifying the behaviors that were associated with the syndrome of the moment, etc, etc, etc...

I learned who I was, what I would accept, and what I would not accept. From anyone. Including a mate. If I won't tolerate something from a life partner I sure as hell won't tolerate it from a kid of any age. Accountability applies. In an age appropriate manner.

KISS.

Take care of you.

Thank you, thank you. I'm

Thank you, thank you. I'm realizing to what extent dh is giving me lip service for the sake of "protecting" his and SS's manner of living life. I'm better able to detect that after getting advice and perspectives here. I don't know why dh tries so hard to protect SS from reality, but he does even if it means enabling SS's lying, manipulations, etc. But I'm trying to cut through the noise and keeping the eye on the prize. I'm so bad at identifying and standing by my needs and preferences which are as valid as anyone else's, but that's where I need to pour my energies.

My dh and I were out with some of his friends last night. Their kids went to the same elementary school before the divorce, and hung out a lot until just before dh and I met. Recently, their kids have been hanging out more after going to different high schools. This was the first time I spent any real time with these friends. They got to talking about how the kids have changed so much and how much more mature they seem. One of them said that my SS had "Eddie Haskel vibes", and that he was always kind of like that. Anyone know who that is? The character from Leave it to Beaver is the epitome of a butt-kisser. Dh nervouslyf laughed about that. I've been telling dh that SS acts very differently when he's not around, and that he is disrespectful and ignores me when he can get way with it. I think getting that feedback from people who have known SS a very long time is going to help my cause a lot.

Let SS process his emotions and tantrums and learn from them. Let him take responsibility for how he chooses to manage them. Stop indulging bad impulses and SS's knee jerk reaction to outsource all of his drama onto his "people". Stop co-dependently rescuing him from any bad feelings. When you do hurtful things, you should feel bad and try to make things better. These are the messages that I've been encouraging in dh, and he seems to be accepting that.

Of course he is a butt

Of course he is a butt kissing Eddie Haskel wannabe. You already knew that. That others know it is no surprise.

IMHO what immediately anchors your cause is zero tolerance regarding SS's bullshit and even less than zero tolerance for daddy sniffing this idiot kid's ass.

Just tell DH that his coddling of his son is entirely off putting and makes him decidedly unattractive to you. Lather, rinse, repeat on that message until he grows a pair and mans up with no relapses.

KISS

Once again SS is not normal

Having a normal kid come over to do laundry, is one thing. Maybe you could talk, have fun. But your SS, I can understand why you don't want him over. Thing about control.. is SS controlling your home, DH life. Forcing you do do things to protect yourself afsinst SS. That protecting yourself is SS controlling you. He making you do something .
I didn't read the book. I lived it. when it comes down to the nuts and bolts. These big talkers , do nothing. It's a normal writer , wetting to a normal person yourself. These sick people don't follow strip.

I think you're right. But I'm

I think you're right. But I'm finding that it's the situation that controls me. Whether I try to protect myself by reading or just sitting there worried all of the time, I'm going to be thinking about SS's behaviors. I feel that the only way for me not to be controlled is just to leave the situation, which I'm not planning to do.

What if you try to protect

What if you try to protect yourself/not be controlled by setting your own boundaries? What if you tried baby steps with that? Do you think DH would tell you to leave?

In the very minimal sense of

In the very minimal sense of being controlled by, it is being suggested that even protecting myself is being controlled by SS, no? But in the sense of doing boundaries, that is what I'm working on. I do think dh is complying with them. He's seeing SS more outside of the home and declining to have SS here outside of visitation. But now I have to get over feeling neglected when he leaves me to go see SS. lol. I also still have that anxious feeling because SS is always trying to extract something from dh, and I just don't want to see my love be taken advantage of. I have to remind myself that I don't get everything my way, but at least dh is trying to give me the fundamentals of what I want. I want SS to take more responsibility over his own choices and feelings, and I also am trying to do the same. My anxiety is my own, and separate from their wish to bond however imperfect I might think it is.

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