Duplicitous 18 yo

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Hi all, I posted about this before, but I'm faced with an extended stay with my 18 yo SS who is one way when dh is around and another way when dh is not. I have to get a handle on this so that I don't get totally frustrated.

Dh and I have fought a few times now over SS in the past month. I've decided to be more vocal about the tensions between SS and me. Hopefully, I'm respectful, but I want dh to be aware of my perspective. God forbid that dh makes any more plans for us to all be together because he thinks we're getting along so great. The problem is that if I raise concerns about something SS does, dh sees it as me getting down on SS who is "trying" as far as he's concerned. SS does try to be nicer to me when dh is around, but to be very clear, when dh is not around, SS ignores me, and does stuff to mess with me. Since SS will only do things that he can get away with, it's always petty, small stuff, but the attitude and message is clear. For example, we went to visit family recently and got an airbnb for the three of us. I like to have jugs of spring water when I'm traveling. That's just a thing I do. SS learned this about me during this trip. The first night, SS drank half a gallon of the water after dh and I went to bed, so we went to buy another gallon. The second night, he drank 3/4 of the gallon. So off we went to buy a third gallon. We can usually get by with one. I won't go into all the ways SS tries to do stuff that is intended to annoy or harm me in some way. I decided that I'm not going to get worked up about it.

But since SS has been nicer to me in front of SS, dh doesn't perceive any of this as intentional, and I'm left feeling alone in my discomfort. For dh, it's just a coincidence that SS became astoundingly thirsty for those two nights. Of course, this is very plausible, so who am I to be a water dictator who complains about teens drinking a lot of water? Also, I'm realizing to what extreme extent dh is blind to SS. My head spins. During this trip, which is the most time I've spent with them together in years, I observed SS lying, being briefly scolded by dh, and in the very next breath, having a regular conversation. If they're on the phone, I would normally just think that they're having a regular conversation, so I wasn't quite aware of how much dh can just skim over some serious stuff SS does. Another example, Dh and I liked some of the wild cacti growing near the airbnb. SS kicked them over when we weren't looking. They were kind of like weeds, so there was nothing to scold anyone about. But when it happened, I just mentioned to dh that I was sad to see someone kick them over for no reason. Dh said to me, 'it must have been an angry possum'. He was kind of joking, but in that joke, I feel like it's implied that he probably knew it was SS and that whoever did it was angry about something. Again, sounding petty here.

At the end of the trip, dh was so happy. He told me how grateful he was at how supportive and helpful I was. When I said something about how I was happy to help whether SS likes me or not, dh got really mad. He thought I was trying to spoil his bliss. I think dh really wants SS and me to get along. I think he thinks I'm a good role model. But I cannot just play along with SS when I know that he's only making a mockery out of it. SS is only trying to keep dh happy so that the favors and money keeps flowing his way. And of course, there is genuine love. That's what SS is so possessive about. He doesn't want to share dh with me in any way. For my dh's part, that's his only son, so dh is so motivated to see his son in the best light. I woul love to make a genuine connection with SS based on mutual respect and understanding. But it feels so wrong to have to swallow SS's BS and act like it's honey.

Cameras

I confess so didn't read all your posts but I'd install some cameras where SS can't see them.

CAMERAS

My 1st thought also.

Also, your DH is an *ss.

You think so? Can you

You think so? Can you elaborate? I know he's not perfect, but is he that bad?

I love the idea of cameras,

I love the idea of cameras, but I think Daddy Denial would make SM the crazed evil B for doing such a thing to his pwecious widdle pwince! PWP is not a criminal! Go apologize to him now!

I think you're right about

I think you're right about this, Morningmia.

Maybe --- DH, I don't want

Maybe --- DH, I don't want you to be a water dictator. I'm concerned that there might be a medical issue that is causing SS to drink so much water. There are several serious conditions that cause excessive thirst.

I bet the SS tipped the

water out.

Either he has a medical

Either he has a medical concern or he poured that water down the drain.

You're probably right. Duh.

So talk to your dh about this

So talk to your dh about this. It isn't normal to drink so much overnight and you are really worried that he might have underlying medical issues and you worry about him. If he tries to pooh-pooh you, ask him if he thinks diabetes is a laughing matter.

Gawd, the blinkers on some of these men ...

I so much feel your pain. And

I so much feel your pain. And, no, you are not being petty. I endured years (although very infrequent contact) of this kind of behavior from SS and SD. SS, in his mid-30s, still plays these passive aggressive games. Neither skid is welcome in our home any longer.

It took some years (5 to be exact) for my DH to emerge from denial. What made those years semi-bearable was that we so rarely had the skids in our home because of their mother's effective practice of parental alienation. But they were so sneaky and covert with their BS toward me that I did look like the crazy one who was making things up. I was hearing, "That's not what she meant!" and "How do you know that was purposely done?" oh, and the one that made me want to claw his face, "You always see the WORST in them." But I never became quiet about what I was seeing, however uncomfortable that made DH.

It took DH getting a few direct hits of his own--or that were directed at both of us together--to back up and recognize his spawn are manipulative, passive aggressive, angry aholes. But, of course, he still loves them. He just loves them outside of our house.

If I were you, I would start "gently" confronting SS: "Where did all the water go? You drank ALL of that?" I say this because passive aggressive behavior (indecency) depends on silence (decency) to keep going. You can "gently" make his crap behavior uncomfortable for him if your SO will not come around.

Thanks Morningmia.

Thanks Morningmia. Unfortunately, I can't imagine a scenario in which SS is not allowed here anymore which would maybe not be a bad thing. BM tries to get rid of SS as much as she can. If it wasn't for the fact that she's still collecting child support, I'm not sure if she would take him at all. I know that's sad to say, but I think it's true.

I got a big hello from him today in fact when he came back from the store. Dh was sitting on the couch and witnessed the whole nice gesture. He's just so nice to me, see?

I do think that I would look like the mean, crazy one if I tried to use a camera. I also think SS could very easily deny that he poured the water or drank the water egregiously. I just kind of want to keep my distance. I also don't even plan on telling dh anymore about the petty things that SS does. He and I talked, and dh told me that he would stop trying to deny my perception of what is going on, and that he acknowledged that SS could be mean to me behind his back. Dh told me that his goal is to not let the situation cause problems between dh and me, and I can get on board with that. I have to use methods that are not confrontational, in my opinion. I just need to last 3-4 years without feeling totally defeated and stressed.

Sadly, things rarely get

Sadly, things rarely get better. 3 years is 3 years of the same old shit than then leads to 4+++. Giving your clear opinion on your SS to his father regarding SS behaviors has to happen anytime you demand it. He has to listen and support you. Subjugating yourself to DH's sensitivity regarding his manipulative kid is not a tolerable consideration even once much less for some magical 3 years that will deliver some highly unlikely mythical improvement to you life.

IMHO sacrificing yourself on the alter of SParental martyrdom to your DH's avoidance of reality regarding his manipulative failed family progeny is not moving forward and living your best life.

I hear you Rags. I think you

I hear you Rags. I think you're right that I am sacrificing too much of myself in this situation. In part, I think I'm driven to involve myself for the purposes of managing and controlling SS's influence and impact on dh and our situation. I'm thinking better of my strategy. I've persuaded dh that keeping to the visitation schedule and not deviating is my bright, red line. So long as he sticks to that, I can just leave them to do their thing. I think that in the past, I was too worried about turning my back because when SS was here without me, he would convince dh to change the schedule, give him x, y, and z, take him on these tasks and errands. So if they spent any time alone, dh would come back to me with a list of demands. For me, the most anxiety-provoking one is SS's demands to extend his time here, which dh had in the past always accommodated. Dh is a lot less guilt-prone now, so I don't think he'll be as likely to cater to SS's demands.

Maybe...

...the WORST is what they showed you! How could you not see it? I like the gentle confrontation. Eyes right here...I SEE YOU!!!

Same with OSD, her worst is so darn ugly that even DH can't NOT see it. He is coming to grips with the fact that this has been going on for about 22 years. I understand this is a hard realization. I am here every step of the way to support him through this, because I know it is difficult. I also know that he had a hand in creating it, by ignoring it. Hard truth to deal with.

What exactly was the epiphany

What exactly was the epiphany? There are a few things that I think causes dh to not "see" it. 1. SS is duplicitous. 2. Even when SS acts up, dh's tolerance for bad behavior is extremely high. DH himself was kind of a wild child, but he turned out fine, so for him, there is nothing bad enough that would cause him to come down on SS. I guess SS is not that bad as far as teens go - he doesn't drink too much, doesn't do drugs, does smoke, and I've talked a lot about his lying and manipulative behavior. But he's not going to get arrested any time soon. The problem is that he has anger that he directs at certain people, including me. If you're dh or one of SS's friends, you aren't going to experience the bully SS. But there have been plenty who have, and dh is not going to truly understand being at the end of that. I'm trying to convince dh that he just has to take my word for it, and to not force me to return SS's "kindness" when it is actually not that at all.

In the meantime, my inner self reacts to SS's BS by wanting to push him away, to yell at him, and all sorts of gut reactions that come from perceiving a threat or an attack. Meanwhile, I just sit there and smile politely.

The epiphany...

...was slow to come, but it came! For that I am grateful. OSD's behavior was never subtle, she hated me before she ever met me. Called me the filthiest of names (I told DH I don't have a friend who would even say those words...truly vile and nasty) and the crazy thing was she would even call me names to her dad, meaning she is NOT SMART ENOUGH to even try to hide it. (Yes, he would tell her to stop. He always stuck up for me, then she would call him a liar and verbally assault him.) The first time we met was for lunch; she looked like she had just crawled out of bed and would not even make eye contact with me. She had no interest in me, it was all about HER. Okay, I went with that and asked her questions about ALL the things she wanted for Christmas. Candles, perfume, lipstick. etc...I like that stuff too, so it was easy to make conversation. I also asked her BF about his job search. As soon as we left, she texted her dad that I was a "b----", but I didn't know that until about 1 1/2 years later. The next day she called crying that I didn't like her and I didn't talk to her. DH (SO at the time) told me about the call and I said, "No, not true." and reminded him that I carried the conversation springboarding off her wishlist. That had totally gone over his head until I brought it up, so when OSD said these things he believed it...even though he knows me. The next day was a repeat, OSD called again crying.... He then reminded her of the things I had talked to her about. Shortly after was a hideous series of phone calls where she called me more vile, filthy names, told me nasty things about her mother, told me nasty things about her father and lied about things he had said about me, and went hard on my kids (who, to this day, she has never met). It was a VERBAL ASSAULT, that went on and on. (I forgot that the conversation started with her being vulnerable, which I responded to with kindness and encouragement. Then, she flipped a switch.) I can say with honesty and a clear conscience that I have NEVER been unkind to her in any way; when I look back, I was way too kind. (She is troubled, in and out of treatment since age 12...she is almost 35. According to family estimates, the number of treatment attempts is past 30 now.) DH knew she was a problem and acknowledged her behavior was wrong, BUT "Keep trying, you are more skilled at communicating. You are more mature." Yes, that is true; I am a skilled communicator...it is part of what I do professionally. My 'communication' was boundary setting, throwing the line out for discussion which I hoped would lead to resolution, and holding her accountable when she denied any wrong doing. It was all met with deflection and denial...TO THIS DAY! Then she started talking nonsense about me to family and anyone who would listen; lies, there were so many lies. I think the biggest lie she told was to herself. Here's the deal, it NEVER stopped and continues to escalate. Messages, emails, texts, screaming at me while trying to break into our home...truly scary stuff. It's scary because she is so sick and she genuinely appears to believe her nonsense. There is SO MUCH MORE. All these years, her family brushed her behavior under the rug, not wanting to make waves. Sometimes when people experience trauma, they suppress it because they are unable to deal with it; I truly think this is where my husband was at. He is now dealing with it. It is hard. It is painful. He knows it must be done. I recently asked him "Why now?"...after all this time...why now? He told me he thought she would get over itn and accept me. In my professional opinion, I do not believe she has the capacity to own her actions, much less correct her actions and live a healthy, productive life. I describe her behavior as a 'train wreck'...I saw it, was horrified but I couldn't look away because the train wreck was happening to me. I have never, personally or professionally, been exposed to this degree of delusion and destructive behavior.

So, his ephiphany was her non-stop, escalating behavior paired with me gently pointing her behaviors out (I tried to always be factual, but kind), therapy, and the stunt she pulled the day before Father's Day. I truly wish it would have happened sooner, but it is happening now and we continue to move forward as 'one'. We are, and have always been a team. We have learned how to communicate effectively...that wasn't always easy and yes, there were bumps along the way. This entire ordeal has made us stronger. Ultimately, we are lucky to have found each other later in life and we are blessed.

Wow, Trudie. My situation

Wow, Trudie. My situation seems like a walk in the park compared to what you had to endure. In your case, it's pretty clear that your contribution to the tensions were negligible, and in fact you seemed to be making an effort to get along with OSD from the very beginning. Meanwhile your OSD was certifiable and highly conflicted, and yet your SO at the time didn't want to see it. That must have been incredibly frustrating. Your SO did come around, but I guess with these types of things, it can take a lot of time. Like you, my dh's and my goal is to make sure that none of these problems hurt our relationship, but it may take a whole lot of time and patience to get through.

An important point I'm taking away from this conversation and the other posts is that dh has to be aware of the facts. The problem is, for dh, the facts themselves are triggering, so he perceives them sometimes as accusations and judgements without even me imposing making any sort of comments. I think dh would be happier if I just ignored or accepted everything SS does (dh is highly conflict averse). But I think it'll be important to make sure that I remind him of the crucial facts as they come up. I just don't think cameras would be the solution. Dh would probably not even look at the video because of the huge problem he would have with it.

After years of SS coming after me, I have become hardened towards him. So now that's a contributing factor to the tensions as well. But unlike your OSD, SS is not mentally ill, and he is not overtly conflicted. I sometimes wish he was so that I can point to evidence of his bad behavior towards me. I'm trying to see past my triggers and see the good in SS as well as the bad. But it's hard to embrace someone who is trying to excise you out of existence.

Definitely not a walk in the park!

My contributions to the tension include: 1. Loving and building a life with OSD's father, and 2. Saying "No" to her behavior and setting boundaries. Now that I think about it, I decided there's a third...educating and supporting DH. In other words, I have not legitimately contributed to the tensions no matter what OSD and DH's family may claim. DH knows it and I know it, so we are solid on that. I do not think he realized how truly dysfunctional OSD is. The behavior started slowly and escalated, I think that can make it tougher too. I also think remembering her as a little girl makes it tougher, but she is NOT a little girl. He will say to me, "She's not all bad." I reply, "No, she isn't but that is all she has shown me." And her bad is REALLY BAD...because previously she had not been told "No". I understand that it is painful when one has an awakening about a family member, many will deny it. And, if the behavior is denied, action need not be taken.

Yes, even facts presented in a non-judmental way are not welcome. Therapy has helped a lot with that; an impartial third party can do wonders to help open someone's eyes. Also, for many there is shame to some degree...shame that they put up with the dysfunction and shame towards their child's behavior. I do think it's important you gently remind your husband of the facts; may I suggest cooling down first, paying attention to your tone and delivery, briefly discuss, and then change the subject.

It IS hard to "embrace someone who is trying to excise you out of existence"! I personally know this! OSD does not acknowledge me as a person, and certainly not as her father's wife! He has told her countless times that I am not going anywhere and that he is not going to pretend I don't exist. I went into this situation prepared to love both of DH's daughters. How could I not? They are a part of him and they will always be important to him. I, too, have been hardend to OSD. This has gone on for almost twenty months; personally that, paired with her denial, deflection, lack of accountability, and the fact that her behavior continues leads me to believe she doesn't have the desire, will, or ability to change. My professional assessment is the same.

I sincerely wish you well as you deal with your husband and SS. Please take care of YOU!

Thanks Trudie. It seems to me

Thanks Trudie. It seems to me that your OSD's bad behavior is well established and that your dh has seen your point of view. That must have taken a lot of work.

I feel that in my situation, SS's "bad behavior" is not so clear cut, and that he tries to be on his best behavior around dh, which makes things murky for me. I tend to blame myself for things also, so I feel stress from questioning how bad it is and whether I'm overreacting or not. But I do think that self care is the only way to go.

Yes...

...her behavior was definitely well established. That said, it is not easy for a parent to 'see' the truth...this means they may have to do something about it.

Food for thought: If your child, juvenile or adult, is behaving badly, do you not love them enough to call them out? Do we not want the best for our kids? Isn't the goal to raise productive, healthy adults who can function idependently? (This does not happen by mistake.)

Agreed, it would be hard is you SS's behavior is not clear cut. Not sure of his intention? Question him immediately and in front of anyone present. "Excuse me, SS, I'm not sure what you meant by that remark. Can you please explain your intent?" or "What was that, SS, did you just call me a b----?" Many times people behave badly BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Yes, self care is a must! Take care of YOU!

I'm learning that Trudie.

I'm learning that Trudie. Since my dh construes my concerns as criticisms, I have developed the habit of censoring my concerns as "judgy" and critical. But when I reflect on it, if some of the problems I have with SS were addressed adequately, they would help SS far more than the coddling and permissive parenting I've observed. So I'm getting all worked up and stressed about...the welfare of someone who is contemptuous of me.

Right now, I'm trying to focus on self care. That's one thing that I can control and something I really realize I need to do. I don't need to do anything for dh or SS that I'm already doing. As you and others have pointed out, what I need is sefl care, self care, self care.

Also...

...self love!

Yes!

All of that sounds like borderline personality disorder.

I know it's a term that most people have heard of, and maybe even of it's symptoms: fear of and frantic efforts to avoid abandonment usually resulting in the opposite, unstable sense of self, intermittent anger issues, tumultuous, unstable relationships, suic*dal thoughts/gestures... And many people think that at some point in their lives they could have related to some or all of those, but very few are aware of the hellish extent of these symptoms and the sheer white hot rage, the level of hatred and relentless efforts to harm others this diagnosis involves. For anyone in doubt I recommend googling "Reddit BPD loved ones". I bet many of you will find your disordered steppos described there from the perspective of those that had a misfortune to befriend, date or work with them.
BPD is not an illness that can be cured or ameliorated. It's a disordered personality, and you can't be cured of your personality. Sure, there are some very sad reasons why the person became that way, but they are not your problem. Because that little hurt child is no longer there, and the late teen/adult will take you down with them, no matter how kind or well educated you are on BPD.

Most therapists won't take them as clients because of their vindictiveness and how quickly they burn professionals out, and those who do, typically limit to two clients on their caseload, provided there's some good supervision also available. That's 2 (TWO!) hours a week that a professional can handle. How can anyone be expected to tolerate that person and not go mad, when it's their home environment and unlimited time?

Thanks Banksiarose. Your

Thanks Banksiarose. Your perspective is always appreciated. I have heard of that disorder and just did some research on it online, and think SS has some of the symptoms. I would love to have a diagnosis to hang my concerns on, but he also lacks enough of the symptoms that make me wonder. He is impulsive, moody, angers quickly, spends recklessly, and seems to fear abandonment. But he has friends that he's kept since middle school, about 8 years. I've seen SS act angry on a dime with some of them, etc. One time, I couldn't believe it, SS went after one friend he considered his BFF. He tried to convince all of their other friends to turn against this BFF on social media and encouraged them to post nasty messages to "teach him a lesson" (this friend started dating a girl, and SS thought his abandonment of his friends was unforgivable). So that sounds pretty disordered, right? But in the end, all was forgiven as they always do. Isn't part of the diagnosis that he has unstable relationships? SS also does not exhibit suicidal thoughts or behaviors, and does not self harm. He is a magnet for "accidents" though that has lead him to break an arm, knock out his front teeth, and other injuries. I don't know many to whom even one of these things happened, yet he's been hit by a car, bit by a dog, taken a serious fall, etc. And after each one, he seemed eerily calm and unscathed. I find that a bit odd, and wonder if it plays the role of self-injury? But also, SS laps up the time he gets with dh in the aftermath of such accidents. It's weird for me to think about, but I could swear that after the last serious accident, SS opted for a procedure that the doctor considered but thought was unnecessary just to spend more time with dh and away from me. After a 4 hour wait at the ER, SS opted to go back the next day with dh and waited another 4 hours to do this unnecessary procedure. Dh thought it was unnecessary too, but said he thought it would alleviate SS's anxiety if he just got it done, and so he waited in the ER with SS both times. Rather than incidental, I thought that his accompanying SS was the entire point. When dh decided not to attend the follow-ups, leaving it to BM and him, SS didn't go to any of those appointments. Yeah, okay.

I've actually been thinking that I should just get out of the house when SS is here. I think dh is desperate to see and depict SS as normal and just grand, so it leaves me to fret about SS's behaviors without any support from dh. I don't know if it's BPD, but SS's persistent and intense efforts to get alone time with dh leaves me feeling insecure in my own home. I almost feel like I need to fend for my place and time with dh. I shouldn't have to feel like I have a rival when it is my SS. I should just take myself out of the picture, and leave when SS is here. It really struck me when you said that even professional therapists have to limit their time with such disordered people to a few hours a week!

Yes!

BPD is a tough one to deal with! It's included in 'Cluster B' peronality disorders, which pretty much describe my OSD. I have not worked with her professionally, but it remains my informal professional diagnosis. One can change their personality through introspection, therapy, and a lot of hard work; however, one needs to have the EQ to realize their own deficits and sadly, most do not.

I see. Most people aren't

I see. Most people aren't very self-reflective, and this one seems hard to treat. As her SM, I'm sure she wouldn't even let you help her even if you were willing. I certainly wouldn't.

Since Banksiarose's post, I've been digging a little deeper into this diagnosis. I do think that there is one characteristic of bpd that I find extremely helpful in interpreting SS's behaviors. The fear of abandonment leading to a fear of autonomy and boundaries. There is this one psychologist, Daniel Lobel who said that most kids naturally lean into freedom and independence. You feed them, but then they realize they can feed themselves, and then they grab the spoon and feed themselves! They learn to walk, and then run! But kids with bpd associate independence with abandonment, so instead of embracing suggestions to be more autonomous, any hint of that will lead them to codependent strategies, most often mistreating the parent whenever they don't get what they want. I think this explains my discomfort around SS. I pick up on the fact that SS is always trying to enmesh dh instead of seeking more freedom as he gets older. Since a parent can't rely on a natural sense in the bpd child to want more autonomy, Lobel's sollution is for the parent to enforce strong boundaries. That's what the advice often is here! Sometimes I am resistent to such advice because I find it too harsh or whatever. But I see now that what might be harsh to a normally developing child and teen is actually necessary if that child has bpd. If the natural sense is not there, the alternative is external impositions until they accept the boundaries. I'm probably going to order his book on parenting a child with bpd. Thanks for that angle, Banksiarose!

There is not a cause of DH not seeing it. He is choosing not to.

It is his choice to not see it. Make no mistake about that liklihood.

Take care of you.

At 18 he’s an adult

I would never go on another trip with SS. He should be looking to go to away college. Or get a job and move out. It DH wanted his Happy Famiky he should of stayed with BM. Not your Job to p lay Hapoy family.

Valid point here. No one goes

Valid point here. No one goes on trips with kids that old typically. Excellent excuse. They can have one on one time if they really want.

For the most part, dh and I

For the most part, dh and I have stopped taking long vacations with either of our sons, though SS constantly wants us to. My BS would prefer not to tag along. I find SS's desire/obsession with spending time with his dad a little weird (I posted about this). But we had family business on this recent trip which was unavoidable. SS was so excited to be going on this trip because he also has some sort of fetish for other members of his family, I can't explain it all, but SS keeps baby pictures of himself, and pictures of himself with grandparents, and parents all over his room. Shouldn't he be putting up posters of his favorite band or maybe more current pictures of him with his friends?

SS considers me an interloper, so he absolutely wants to disassociate me from anything related to "his" family. During dh's dad's funeral, SS pushed me out of the family line, for example. I wish I could say dh rained his wrath down on SS, but dh is so conflict averse that he just shrugged. It's really hard to be around that. And I think it's a testament to my making an effort that dh didn't notice any tensions during that and this trip at all. But I don't think it's the last time we'll have to spend time like this. There will be funerals, weddings, etc. I'm just trying to find ways to cope because I certainly don't think that my feelings should trump our duties to family matters.

Photo/Fam Fetish

... seems likely this is a passive-agressive effort to keep the message in your face that "you don't belong" and simultaneously ingratiate himself as "endearing" to those family members. A set-up for you to comment so he gets to play "Victim" with you as the designated "Persecutor" (she hates OUR family!) and his dad as potential "Rescuer."

Classic Karpman's Drama Triangle skid tactics.

Interesting take. Folks on

Interesting take. Folks on here have seen it all. I didn't think about the fact that the "family" pictures could be intended for me. I do know that at one point SS even had a picture of him with his mom up which surprised me because he has expressed negativity about her in the past. But more recently, I noticed SS had taken the picture down. He's not going to go that far to antagonize me. lol.

He's an adult so treat him

He's an adult so treat him like one. Tell your husband that you will call his son out every time he does anything rude, sneaky or unpleasant to you. An d do it ... but do it politely so that he can't say you attacked him.

Thanks Winterglow. That's

Thanks Winterglow. That's exactly what I would like to do. Just in general, having to deal with someone who is so against me is a really good opportunity to learn how to stand up for myself graciously but firmly. I have trauma in my background, and I need confidence and courage to stand by my own sense of right and wrong, my sense of reality. As a kid, my dad would punish me for choosing myself over him, so I have to literally force myself to stand by myself in the face of those trying to harm me.

Find Jefferson fisher on

Find Jefferson fisher on Instagram. He a lawyer that posts videos on how to respond during difficult situations and with difficult people. You just might get something to use on SS.

Thanks! There are so many

Thanks! There are so many videos, but they are very short and concise. I look forward to watching them all!

18- and a plan to launch?

I can see some of the same challenges both myself and DH had- first with his youngest son (39) then mine- mine, is high functioning autistic- adhd- and one other acronym I can't recall- due to his age it wasn't as easy setting launch goals as it was for DHs nearly forty year old. Ultimately the tough love paid off with mine- 18-20 was rocky- job changes and a hard time adjusting to adulting- we set the launch plan well ahead of time- when he turned 19 (he had just finished high school) and we let him know- time for a full time job- saving money and out next year- this led to a year of struggling to adapt for him- he bounced from job to job- had some mental health issues and we pushed it back a year, to help him feel more stable- keep in mind this is MY son, I'm talking about- we held to the launch plan, setting goals and some contingencies around financial help- working AND going to school- and it's now been going on two years- he's taking this year off of school- and deciding what he really wants to do with that. What I'm saying is, if I were in your shoes, I'd discuss launch plans now! Otherwise you'll end up with a kid like DHs who refuses or has no motivation to support themselves and always had a place to land through life's up and downs- essentially keeping him a dependent. Yes, seeing how DHs youngest launched helped us both navigate things differently when it came to my own launching. Start asking about job-life-living situation goals for this kid asap or you'll have a 39 year old dependent on your hands.

Thanks Noway. It seems like

Thanks Noway. It seems like you both put in a lot of effort to ensure that your son launched. Though it appears that he went through some hardship in the process, I think you had his best interest in mind, and in the end, that's what matters. I hope dh will see that as we will be crossing that bridge soon. First though, we have to see if SS is successful at college. He barely graduated highschool, and didn't get into any colleges he applied to except one that even he decided was in a way too small and rural town. So he's going to a community college and hopes to transfer to a big, fancy school in a year. Dh is skeptical about how well he'll do. One plan that dh has is to find SS a job through his Union if SS doesn't do well in school.

Update

I have been more firm with dh, and am trying to stand up for myself. But I feel like I'm losing the battle. I feel better about expressing my authentic reactions to the things SS does, but it seems to be alienating dh. He's been more protective of SS and spending more time with him than before.

Dh roots for the underdog, and I think that right now, he perceives SS to be that. Also, dh might be picking up on some angst that SS is going through right now. SS doesn't really talk to me about it, but I think he may be having some fears about the future. All of his friends are going away to college, and he didn't even get in to any of his desired colleges. I feel bad that there is a young person in my life that is struggling, and rather than being able to help him, not only am I out of the loop on that, I actually don't feel a whole lot of sympathy. I don't want to be that person who is apathetic to another person's plight. Yet I do not have feelings of care and concern for someone who is such a constant in my life. That makes me feel guilty and sad.

They have found the perfect

They have found the perfect person to continue their (DH's and SS's) behavior: You. Because not only do you not want to rock the boat by coming out and boldly stating what you know to be true (until recently?), but you also feel "guilty and sad" for not caring about criminally minded SS.
You are doing an awful lot of hand-wringing. You are spending a lot of energy on a person (SS) who honestly doesn't deserve it.
What can you do to take care of you--because it doesn't appear that anyone around you is.
It is up to you and only you whether or not you want to continue the way you are, as no one knows when SS will launch, if ever, and you do know that, even if he launches, he will be in your life until the end of it should you continue to be in this marriage.
I hope I don't sound angry at you, but in all honesty, I do get angry when I see or hear about another person being mistreated and disrespected and there seem to be no real-life answers. And I don't believe there are no real-life answers...they just might not be the answers that you want. *I also want to add the introspection is a good thing--it's obviously something missing in the lives of many of our skids' and some of our partners' lives. But there are some of us who too often take on most or all of the responsibility for others' BS behavior and we are not being fair to ourselves. There is decent behavior and indecent behavior. There really is a line there that should be identified and dealt with.
I don't recall how long you and DH have been together.
What can you do to take care of you and leave your poor hands alone?

OMG, thank you so much,

OMG, thank you so much, MorningMia. I feel like I'm forcing everyone into becoming my therapist. lol. Do you accept checks or cash for co-payments? Joking aside, the process of dealing with SS has been very therapeutic. I can't hide from my weaknesses and vulnerabilities when I have a hostile force living in my own home. I so appreciate you pointing these things out because the way I grew up left me with a lot of blind spots.

After church today, I reflected a lot on what you said. I was pondering why I insist on appeasing and helping SS when he doesn't even want it and pretty much spits on it. It's a revelation to me that I don't have to help and care for someone who shows me disdain. No one is entitled to my care and help. It might seem strange to some of you that I wouldn't realize this, but it's totally my upbringing. My narcissistic dad would belittle and abuse me, but expected me to care for him to the tee (he was very sickly). If I didn't do what he said, the punishments were unspeakable. That clearly eroded my sense of what I deserve or am entitled to. I'm realizing that when I start to want to do self-care, I all of a sudden stop in my tracks and feel selfish and guilty for not using my energies to help dh, SS or whomever. I understand that I'm going to have more wisdom and patience than a child or teenager, and so as adults, we need to take some crap from them. But for someone like me, I think that sense of obligation is taken way too far, and causes me to rationalize and fuel a self-destructive pattern. I pray that I can be my own hero.

My dh and I have been together for 6 years.

I feel like I'm forcing

I feel like I'm forcing everyone into becoming my therapist. lol. Do you accept checks or cash for co-payments?

Isn't that what we're all--or most of us--here for? Listening ears, empathy, feedback, etc? YES.

I get what you are saying. I used to be very much a helper/codependent. I think it took that type of personality or even remnants of that personality to have tolerated what I tolerated years ago. I was always kind and caring and giving to the skids even though SD in particular responded with rudeness. "She'll come around." I kept giving gifts even though I was ignored on my birthday and holidays. "I'm the adult." (eyeroll) Those ingrates didn't deserve any of that, and in looking back, I should have withdrawn after one of the earlier instances of them never saying "thank you" to me. I had no obligation to them. If anything went wrong with the skids--and it regularly did--I racked my brain wondering what I (and DH) had done. I used to carry around guilt for the most minor of things (I was well-trained, as I had an alcoholic mother). I've had to fight all of that. On top of that, when I'd bring up an issue about skid behavior, DH would tell me I saw the worst in people and hated his kids.

One of the most difficult things is that when we do start taking care of ourselves, set boundaries, stand our ground, is that others get angry (they feel betrayed--hey, we must have misled them, as we were the strong, caring ones they depended on, damn it!) and they call us selfish and mean. I think I was labeled borderline personality disorder. *ROFL* That there was some serious BM projection. I used to hate people misreading me or projecting onto me. I don't give a crap now. It's such a waste of time! Nothing I could do (or would want to do) would ever change their narrative of me since I did not roll over and pee like the submissive puppy they wanted and assumed me to be. In fact, the fact that we step parents entered their lives in any form, the fact that we exist is what bothers these people. DH used to regularly remind me (when he started to see the light), "It's not you. You could be anyone. Anyone in my life would be a problem for them." True.

You can be your own hero and we will cheer you on!

I hear you!

So much truth here! I have believed for a long time that if I'm not ruffling some feathers professionally, then I am not doing my job. Telling people what they want to hear is not helping them. Challenging them, with good intentions and in the right situation, IS helping them. Of course one can refuse or deny the help, their choice. When I read your words, I realized how much this applies to our personal lives too. Personally I know that our biggest mistakes can lead to great growth and wisdom, if we take the time to reflect and practice humility, redirect our course/behaviors, and simply learn from those mistakes.

Truth! I have told more than

Truth! I have told more than one employee in the past that I am telling them the truth because I respect them and feel I owe that to them. It has pissed off more than one.

I hear you!

Yes, this is a supportive

Yes, this is a supportive group that I can't find anywhere else. It's a kindness on the part of everyone posting with feedback and advice. I don't know what I would have done without reading the experiences of others here and getting feedback about my own issues.

I relate to a lot of the things you said, Morningmia. The codependency, caring about what other people think, self-blame, trying really hard even though SS doesn't reciprocate, and feeling misunderstood. It would be easy to disengage if it wasn't for my desire to be a good person and/or thought to be a good person. And usually, people respond to you in kind if you are gracious and decent to them. But when you're getting feedback that you are a bad person no matter what you do, it leaves you feeling unfairly treated, and for me, it makes me question whether I am truly a good person as I thought I was, or whether SS is on to something. But that is exactly why this process has been good for me - it forces me to define my own sense of identity and decency whether others are acknowledging that or not.

As much as I want to be more proactive about managing my blended family situation, I am also working on myself. I do think that the things you and Trudie are talking about are important - being able to hold your own in the face of opposition, cultivating patience, setting boundaries, etc. I think these are harder to do in a family situation than in the work place. I know for me, the loss of my dh's esteem and support would affect me a thousand times more than if I lost a colleague's support or esteem. I've been able to face opposition at work without it cutting too deep, but for me, the potential minefields that I could trigger with dh is far more consequential. But I totally agree with Trudie that the parallels are there, and the same lesson holds - it's not always better to take the easy path and to get what you "want". Sometimes it's more valuable for growth to hear some harsh truths.

To be very honest also, SS's behaviors trigger in me an impulse to "fight back" and defend myself. I think that of all of the things that could undermine my staying true to my values and integrity it is this impulse to fight back against what I perceive to be attacks against me. I've read that people justify and excuse behaviors and actions when they think they are feeling victimized. I want to make sure to keep that in check. I think a truly self-confident person would not be unraveled by such pettiness. So self love is probably the solution in more ways than one.

You changed to rules in your

You changed to rules in your relationship with DH and he's not liking it. Tough I say. You should not have to put up with the SS drama machine. Your DH brought up an a$$hole. He should be so proud (eyeroll)

Skids like this test a marriage like no other. Focus on that with DH and let the other stuff go. SS will find his way one way or another.

I'm realizing that the main

I'm realizing that the main reason I feel like I'm on a boiler plate is because of the fear I have of the fall out with dh if I don't work it out with SS (and we're not going to work it out unless I cave on everything and even then, SS would still hate me). Dh means everything to me, so I am very fearful of losing his love and support. But in my recent discussions with him, I'm starting to pick up on the fact that dh is going to be a lot more understanding than my fears would suggest.

It's a crapshoot (pun

It's a crapshoot (pun intended). Two years into our marriage, I was done with what had become hell in our household, with constant harassment from BM and awful skid behavior. I was armed and ready to get the hell out. I wasn't threatening DH to get him to change his behavior; I was threatening DH with reality. I was about 2 hours away from calling an attorney and handing DH back to his dysfunctional progeny because, honestly, every day had become a bad day. I also backed up BM, something I will forever be "punished" for *eyeroll*.

DH decided then that he thought marriage counseling was probably a good idea, and he picked an excellent psychologist who really helped us and gave us good tools. DH began back then looking at his own s***, although he has certainly stumbled along the way (as we all have). It's been a long road, but we've found our spot where we want to be. DH has grown to be self-reflective. He does online mindfulness sessions, talks openly with his friends and close family about issues, and more than ever he will be the one who brings up crap about the skids, actually wanting my thoughts and input rather than trying to hide things from me in order to project the false "perfect skid" images that he was so devoted to. He sees them for what they are, which has been difficult for him. He still loves them. He still sees them (very occasionally). But there is a lot of distance.

I hope your DH's understanding continues and grows.

Dh means everything to me

Dh means everything to me

Sadly, what is obvious, is that you are not everything to him.

An equity life partnership requires two. It is not an equity partnership when one is all in, and the other is not all in or even not in at all .... beyond their own needs. Glimmers of understanding are not being all in on his part. Scooby snacks just keep the hook set. Never forget that.

You deserve all in from him. Also never forget that. You should be the full meal deal not just hte receiver of the occassional Scooby snack.

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