What should we do for this upcoming Father's Day event?
Hello everyone,
I have decided to post this one up here as this would concern SD18 more than the younger SD16, so given she's 18 she's considered an 'adult' so I will put it up here.
Some of you may know that there was a huge argument between us and both SDs in November last year. SD16 has completely blocked DH for the entire time since then so there has absolutely been no contact. SD18 has somewhat made it up with DH at the end of June. They have chatted several times over the phone and met up in person twice, both times just the two of them.
In the first meet up in June, DH asked SD18 how she would feel about seeing me, and she said she's open to it, maybe not rightaway but she was willing to move past it. DH explained that I'm a part of his life, so he thinks that it'd be important for us to make up, etc. SD18 also reluctantly apologised through DH but also said that she 'doesn't remember' what the argument was about anymore since 'it has been such a long time'.
Recently there has been a tragic event in DH's family, so DH made a phone call to let SD18 know what happened. I thought it would have been a good time to say hi to her through the phone seeming as there might be an expectation for all the family members to meet up for a funeral/burial event (and I didn't want it to be awkward if I had to see SD18 in person at this event after not seeing her for so long). SD18 did say hi when I said hi, but sounded very very dismissive and short over the phone to me. I asked how she was etc. and she just said 'good' but never asked me back, and she also didn't sound like she wanted to extend the conversation.
Anywho, the funeral/burial event hasn't been organised, so I don't know what's happening. But next Sunday is Father's Day here and that's the more pressing matter for me now. I would like some opinion/guidance here, please.
I have spoken with DH and I think we are on the same page here. DH's family would usually always have a family BBQ Sunday lunch for Father's Day and our plan was that if SD called and asked DH about Father's Day, that DH was going to say to her that he would love it if she could come and join the family for that lunch. Of course I would be there, and she can't tell me that I'm not going to be allowed to be there. My suspicion is that SD might feel uncomfortable coming, and I'm worried that she might ask DH to just meet him on her own. I personally don't feel like we need a permission from her for me to join in, and if DH (as the father) wants me to be with him on that day that I shouldn't need a permission from SD to be there. So the plan was if SD asked to meet him without DH's extended family then he will say he can see her but I will be there too. Now my dilemma is, what do we do if SD says that she doesn't want me around for that day, and that she just wants to see him?
It would turn into such a lose-lose situation very quickly should SD asked that. On the one hand, I would feel terrible if DH doesn't see her on Father's Day, but on the other I also would feel terrible if he succumbs to it as I know that'd be the start of her excluding me in potentially many more future events.
I love my DH, but I also respect myself. My priority is to not put my DH in a difficult situation of having to choose me or her, and I don't feel like it is justified for myself to be excluded as I haven't done anything wrong. And if she starts excluding me now, there will always be more future events she'd be excluding me from, and that'd put my DH in a very difficult situation. My wish is to draw the boundaries now and let SD learn it now (that DH won't just exclude me whenever she wishes) so that it'd get easier for DH and I in the future.
DH said that he is fine to not see her should she make this unreasonable request, because he doesn't think that it's right for her to dictate and that he thinks it would be a disrespectful behaviour from her end to want to exclude me (especially after saying that she doesn't have an issue with seeing me). But I just want to know people's opinions here, are we doing the right thing?
I would not overly read a ton
I would not overly read a ton into an awkward phone situation that occured when your DH was telling his daughter about a tragic family event.. and TBH..that was probably not a time to be on the phone with him and his daughter..
I also am not sure that "father's day" needs to be the day that you make some stand about you being a couple.. lots of people do things one on one with a father or mother for those celebration days. I would think a less pivotal day.. of perhaps him inviting her for lunch to see each other would be more reasonable.. but that's just how I would do it..
You have to understand that their own reconcilement is very tentative and fresh.. and like spooking a wild animal.. if he starts in with high stakes demands.. it could blow up. I don't know that there is some urgent need for this all to happen NOW.. and she did acknowlege you on the phone.. and given the topic of the call.. I think that's as best as you want to expect.
Let your DH have father's day with his kid if she wants to do something.. it could be another opportunity for her to hear from him that you would both love to see her sometime.. and if she says she is open to it.. then perhaps he and you come up with some date suggestions to give her.
And.. before you press forward.. do some honest self reflection.. are YOU willing and able to give this a full hearted effort.. are you willing to forgive.. even if you can't totally forget past hurts? If you are still holding a grudge.. and are going to be quick to slam the door on her.. then maybe you don't need to be pushing for this.
Moving Past It
Thanks, ESMOD.
Not 100% in agreeance with what you are saying. Maybe I did read a bit too much into the phone conversation, but it all screamed too familiar with how the SDs have always been treating me in all these years anyway (that dismissive tone and treatment, particularly from SD16 and occassionaly SD18). Treating me like as if I don't belong, I'm excluded, and I'm not family.
Just to be clear, I'm not looking to forgive and forget. I just want to move past it all and be in a place where we can all be civil for the sake of my DH. In the future I don't want to put DH in a difficult position of having to choose between me or his kids (particularly in attending events, etc.). And I see all these posts from stepparents whose partners/spouses are struggling to draw the boundaries and letting their kids call the shots and be mini wives, all well into their 60s and 80s, and I don't want that to happen to us. That is my priority, hence why the need to draw the boundaries now than later.
For the past decade, Father's Day for me, DH & the SDs have always been celebrated as a family unit. If not just us 4 then it involves DH's family or my family. For DH's family & my family it has also always been celebrated as a family unit (with all our siblings), as both sets of parents are still together. And SDs have always been welcomed & involved in either events (whether it be BBQ lunch with DH's or lunches out with my family).
Also, there was really no particular reason for the breakdown of the relationships. IMO SDs completely blew everything out of proportion. It went from 'we need to have one on one time' to 'I am never ever seeing you again and blocking you'. And it wasn't like DH didn't want to grant their wishes of having the one on one time.
And TBH I don't want to push for this, if I could I would honestly rather not have a relationship or contact with SDs at all. But DH's family is all over it, particularly his parents; they keep pushing for him to make up with them and they want SDs attending the family events again. I'm not going to be one of those people who act 'if she's there, I'm not going.' I am DH's wife and I have all the rights to be at family events and I'm not going to tiptoe around SDs. And the way I see it is that the sooner we get this over and done with, the sooner I can get my ILs off our backs. I don't intend to be chums with SDs and give it my 'full-hearted effort'. I have given it my full-hearted effort in all these years and they have never failed in treating me like I'm sub-human. They never even wished me happy birthday. SD16 ignores me and always failed to say hi and bye whenever she came around. Everything that I did for them in this past decade (helping with school, organising their birthdays & Christmases, buying them presents, taking them out during school holidays, organising the end of year family holiday trips, etc.) have been taken for granted and they have never appreciated any of it. I honestly don't care about them now. But I do care about DH. I know he will be tormented if SDs don't attend important family events and if our relationships are still strained. I know he will be devastated if he has to attend events on his own without me, and is already devastated that his kids aren't attending these events anymore.
And honestly it has been nearly 10 months. We fought and argued over heated moments and I think it is really time to move past everything. I'm OK with DH spending some one on one times with SDs without me, but at the same time SDs shouldn't be the one getting to call the shots as to which events they don't want me in. My parents and DH's parents never ever say to us that they only want to see one of us and not the other. If DH is invited, then I am invited. So if our parents never do this, why should we let his kids do this? And also, the sooner we draw this boundary, the sooner SDs will understand that we won't put up with such exclusionary behaviours (which I have been putting up with this past decade, BTW). If we let this happen this one time, I trust that there will always be a next time. There will always be another occasion where they don't feel comfortable with me showing up. And it will become harder and harder to draw that line. The next occasion may not be Father's Day. It might be their 21st, it might be their engagement, it might be their wedding. I know I'm probably thinking too far ahead into the future. But I think everything that I was worried about has come to fruition.
Trust me, there is a lot of hurt on my end. I resent everyone, including my DH, because he has never addressed any of these exclusionary behaviours early on. To me, it has gone beyond repairs and I don't intend to forget past hurts, all because I know it will keep occurring in the future. They are never sorry, they are just sorry they got caught and that I'm calling them out on their poor behaviours. If they are truly sorry I would expect a change of behaviours. In my dictionary, 'don't be sorry, just don't do it again.' But oh, they will do it again. A million times and over. So no, there is no forgiveness in my heart for now.
Clearly SD is, or wants to be in control
She is showing you, she doesn't want to be near you. Your DH already made his choice when he married you. Your SD was invited to the BBQ. if she wants to see her father and you she knows where you will be.. BUT,BUT. BUT. no DH going off to a alone BF. DD Alone meeting. Those have ended.
'Your DH has a choice of divorces you to be with his DD or being with you and tge DD chip will fall in place But that the only two choices there are.
Yeah, sadly...
Sadly there would always only be those 2 choices you mentioned. I certainly hope the DD chip will fall in place.
Fathers day is about.... the
Fathers day is about.... the fathers. The dads are the focus. Not the kids.
If SD pulls any whiney toxic bullshit, time to put a foot up her ass and keep it there. Your DH has stated you are at his side and if the toxic failed family spawn plays games, good riddance to her not being involved in his day.
Do not put any concern into the what ifs of what might could pollsibly happen. Know what you will and will not accept and address her accordingly. No need to pre-ruin the day with what ifs.
Script the basics of most likely situations so if one of them occurs you can smack her down instandly and put her in her place.
Make sure that if she does pull any shit, she, daddy, and everyone else around knows she is the cause of the drama and that you will not tolerate it regardless of what anyone else present may think.
KISS
IMHO of course.
Agree, but the last bit hard to do...
I have high moral values and always strive to do the right things by others, and that's why my conscience was questioning this decision. But last night I had the realisation; why should I always try to do the right thing by others when those others don't even bother doing the right thing by me? As apparent in the way SDs have always treated me in all these years.
I agree 100% with you and I also think that we should make it known that it is SD's choice to everyone. But the problem I know I will have is that my ILs (esp. my MIL) will judge us so badly for DH not seeing SD on Father's Day, EVEN IF SD is the problem and the one to refuse to join in. My ILs have the tendency to be people pleasers (that's where my DH get it from), and they want to always keep the peace and they have this constant sickening principle of 'putting the children first', regardless of the situation. They will not give a damn about what DH and I want, they will only think that DH should see her no matter what and that they will judge DH to be doing the wrong thing for not seeing her (and they most likely would think that it was me who has a problem with DH seeing her). Hence why I said it is just a lose-lose situation for me...
I even thought that maybe we should just book a getaway and run away from all of this, because I'm just dreading it so very much. But it is not adult-like to run away from problems, SIGH. I wish I could just disappear into thin air sometimes.
There is nothing wrong with
There is nothing wrong with highlighting the crap behaviors of the toxic. I get that confrontation is difficult. However, when done assertively, in a clear tone of voice, with direct focus on the toxic choices of the perpetrator, it is rarely as difficult as it is built in our minds to be before it is actually done.
Part of this will be giving the ILs clarity that SD is the one who failed to see her father on his day. Do not tolerat their GK worshiping crap any more than you do the SD's behavioral crap.
Yes!
I don't tolerate their GK worshipping crap (and I love the way you put it BTW) lol, but DH doesn't tend to stand up to them and draw that line. I just have to get DH to tell it to them as it is (a harder job than you think!). We did discuss it again last night and DH is still on board and I brought it up to him about how he would have to approach it with his family, particularly his mother, should SD18 refuse. He is not good under pressure and when put on the spotlight, so I need to prep him up as much as I can because he isn't the best with comebacks and responses. I won't hesitate to back him up of course and I will become confrontational if they keep pushing and prodding him. If things turn really bad with the ILs we will probably end up walking away from the whole BBQ but so be it. I am so tired of putting up a façade and shutting up this whole time. If his parents keep pushing the most likely scenario would be that they won't even be seeing DH and I. Given they're all about family cardboard cutouts at these important family events, they will be so scared of losing our attendance too (on top of losing DH's kids' attendance) and I plan on using that fear 100% to my advantage LOL. I hope things will all go to plan, I hope I'm just being 'glass half empty' and I hope things will turn out to be better than I expected!
DH said that he is fine to
I think this says it all. Your DH is on board. He sees what is happening. Just follow your instincts here and stick to the original plan. You can't control how others act or feel. Just do what you have already discussed with your husband. You're not wrong here. Stick to your guns on this one.
Thank you.
Yes, I'm glad that DH is finally opening his eyes and realising everything, and that particularly I'm right about how his kids are. Thank you.
You've answered your own question.
"I would honestly rather not have a relationship or contact with SDs at all."
I've been in a similar situation with my SD for 20+ years.
Here's what I've learned: Nothing will ever change these girls' mindsets when it comes to ANY woman having a relationship with their father. This attitude of exclusion is ingrained deep in their psyche and is as much a part of them as are their bones. It will not get better with time, it will not get better with so-called maturity, and it won't get better when they become wives, mothers and even stepmothers themselves. They won't ever want you around.
It. Won't. Change.
So the answer is simple - you will not expend any more of your time, money or emotional energy on them. Your DH should be free to have whatever relationship he wants with them as long as it does not interfere with your marriage or your own home and finances.
If the family has a Father's Day BBQ and everyone is invited, then so are you. If SD's dont want to be there because of you, that's their choice. I would have your DH make it clear to other family members (ILs) that this is SDs reason for not attending.
They are old enough to learn how to be civil and polite even to people they don't like. This is a lesson that they will have to learn anyway - do they think they will love everyone they work with? Of course not but they will be expected to act professionally - which is polite and civil. I would have DH explain it this way to the ILs/family. And more importantly, to his own daughters.
The SDs don't have to sit at your side at the gathering, you can simply avoid each other. If communication is needed there is the expectation that you will all be civil and polite. This should be the groundrule for any family gathering, whether a BBQ or a funeral. You will be there with DH, SDs can be there (if they choose) but all are expected to act with civility. And DH should foot-stop the part about YOU being at his side at family gatherings. That isn't going to change, either.
As for alone time, so be it. If they want to spend an occasional lunch/dinner/even alone with DH that's fine. Again, as long as it doesnt interfere with your own marriage or household, including finances. I got to the point where I fully supported my SO spending time alone with his daughter, especially when she was in adulthood.
I no longer WANT a relationship with her, therefore I don't have one and never will. Exclusion works both ways: Instead of seeing yourself as being excluded, realize you have the power to exclude them!
Now my SO goes alone to visit SD and her brood out of state and I don't go. I did try it once after his grandkids were born, and it was an awkward and uncomfortable situation which I refuse to subject myself to again. I've also avoided the heartache of getting involved with his gskids, hoping it would be different. It won't be and it hasn't been. I've seen what others here on Stalk have gone through, and I vowed not to do that to myself. I don't need to go through a second generation of being excluded, treated as less-than or other insults with grandskids.
Do the same. Don't make any big pronouncements to your DH about "disengaging" - just do it. My SO was smart enough to figure it out eventually, after a few feeble attempts at, "I wish you would go with me." he's stopped asking. I just say, "Enjoy your visit!" and off he goes.
YES. YES. YES.
What you are saying is 100% how I feel & think now and it is good to know that you have made this same decision and have applied it for decades and that it is working for you. I hope it will work for me, too. I 100% don't want a relationship with my SDs anymore and have come to accept that everything that I have done for them in the past have gone down the drain. I no longer wish that they will become 'better' as they get older. I no longer wish that they could be the children that I will grow to be close to, whom I never had. And I no longer wish that they will finally open their eyes and see that BM and her family are Crazy with a capital C.
And phony civility is what I aim for between me and SDs from this point onwards. Like you said, we don't have to sit next to each other, heck I don't even have to talk to her in the whole event except for politely saying hello and goodbye. I couldn't care less. Everything that I do is for my DH only, and the only reason I will put up with them is because of my DH. And you are 100% right that they will have to learn to tolerate people that they may not like in their lives, like their colleagues. I have said this to SD16 numerous times, as she would act vile to people that she didn't like. I would tell her that she would need to learn to tolerate and remain polite to others even if she doesn't like them. But she doesn't care for what I advise her.
In the decade that I have been in their lives, they have never ever called or texted DH or myself to just say hello. They only called/texted when they wanted something and when they did, they would call numerous times to the point of spamming and would only stop when they got what they wanted. And when they didn't get what they wanted, DH would immediately be vilified and verbally abused. They are exact clones of BM. I used to think they will open their eyes and see that we're not the bad guys when they are older and wiser. But heck no. Now I don't wish for anything but only for my DH to be happy. My priority is my DH and he's the only one that matters to me, not his kids, not his family.
The dilemma I would have though is that his entire family is this toxic, 'family is everything', 'family comes first' kind of people. And I truly don't know how I'm going to ever deal with it. And because DH is inherently a people pleaser (just like his parents), he is so afraid of confrontation. He must also have been raised to never defy his parents and to always oblige to them, so he still has this guilt whenever he has to draw the boundaries with them. Don't get me wrong, I was also raised to always respect the elders, but I'm not that afraid of confrontation and if I think my parents crossed the line I will let them know and tell it as it is. But I still feel like it's not in my position to be telling his parents how it is; it should be his job, and not mine. After all, he is an adult capable of defending himself. I have also recently learned to stop defending for him and to let him fight his own battles.
And as for the grandkids, OMG you are totally right and thank you for that insight. Especially this bit: "I don't need to go through a second generation of being excluded, treated as less-than or other insults with grandskids." I can already feel this in my bones. I already know SDs won't even have the decency to even the slightest consider me as their children's step grandmother (they don't even consider me as their stepmother, so why would they consider me as their children's step grandmother?), and so you are 100% right, the cycle will start again and I will be excluded once again.
I don't plan to spend anymore time, money or emotional energy on them ever again. I have done that in the past decade without ever getting anything out of it. And I was constantly vilified and excluded, and so I will never ever do that again. I won't even bother helping DH buy presents for them (he never did, I always did even though sometimes it would be his money spent and not mine, but the effort was still mine). He won't buy any presents for them, and I know it. Even if he does, he'd probably just get laughed at and told that his presents are shit and why can't he buy them better presents seeming as he has the money to do so? These are the kind of kids they are. They constantly tell him that he's a shit father and that he's inadequate. And honestly, good luck to their future husbands. Their mother is divorced (has 4 kids from 2 different men), their auntie (from the mother's side) is divorced twice and their grandmother (from the mother's side) is also divorced. When I look at my DH, I question myself as to how could she have divorced him? He is a decent man, he is a hard working individual, certainly not lazy, he is good with his money and he doesn't have any unhealthy addictions to anything (doesn't even drink or smoke). He loves and cares for his children and me and he shares with me household chores and responsibilities. He was raised in a very traditional family with his mother SAHM and his father working more than usual, and yes I do admit that at times he isn't the most helpful around the house, but he always tries his best. He is of course not perfect, but neither am I. But my point is that he is all in all, a good man. And he even told me that my SD's auntie's second husband (whom my DH went to school with and was friends with), is a good man. They have 3 kids, she was a SAHM and he worked 2 jobs to afford her high needs and expectations. But all in all, a good man. But she still divorced him. SD's family from their mother's side seems to have this unreasonably high expectations of men and constantly projects their own insecurities and put them down (nothing the men do would ever be enough) whilst they put themselves in pedestals thinking they are it and a bit (trust me, they're not). Anywho, I'm quite convinced that my SDs won't have healthy relationships with men, given these toxic female figures in their lives... Not much I can do about it though, as I'm the wicked evil stepmother!
Once again, thank you so much for your insight and sharing, I love it. I am at the start of the path where you are at now, following your footsteps and I hope it will continue this way and I hope it will be smooth, at least for me and my sanity. I am healing, slowly, and I shouldn't let his toxic spawns slow down this healing process.
When a SParent stops smoking
When a SParent stops smoking the Hope-ium pipe it is a very liberating decision.
Good for you.
Though I would not tolerate a Skid isolating me from my mate's side even when that mate is their parent. I woudl be at my mates side... period dot. IMHO of course.
Good luck.
Take care of you.