Thanks for your input, dodgegal. Over the years we've tried many times to talk some sense into the situation, but it always comes back to bite us. I did have a thought about calling the second daughter, the less combative one, prior to a planned visit to sort of clear the air, but my husband thinks she'd take it all wrong again. He tries, but they've heaped enough guilt on him that he seems paralyzed to say what he wants to have happen. Like I've seen others say, he's trapped in the middle. He in no way agrees with anything they've done, as a matter of fact he's clearly ashamed and embarrassed. But he still lets them do whatever they want to do with no result on their relationship. It's like he's afraid he's going to push them away. It's sad to me. He puts himself out there as a punching bag, just as his ex wants him to.

I'm really torn. I do not want to totally 'roll over' and just let these 2 back into our home. I believe he'll be successful with his treatments. I don't mean to make it sound like he's on his deathbed, but one day that could be the case and then what do I do? If it's left to me alone, I'd keep a lot of distance between us and them. But no matter what we do now, we will be accused of doing something wrong to them. That's why this choice is so difficult. Do I play the REAL bad sm and say I don't want them here? Or do I take yet another high road, let them come here, let them destroy my things and plot against me, only to have to rage about it later? And will there come a time when my husband really wants them by his side, as they probably should be?

Grrrr.

My goodness, I didn't expect so many meaningful words. Thank you all. And I'm so glad I posted here, because I got just what I came for, the perspective I couldn't get a handle on. You are absolutely right, it IS my place now to make the rules and to take better care of my dh at the same time. You make a very good case for not leaving the ground rules up to my husband, but to take advantage of this perfect opportunity to take the sd's by the horns. I've always said the ground rules should have been laid first, long ago, but my dh could never bring himself to do it. The result was that the sd's walked all over me and my dh. Now I get to correct that. Yaay me!

OK, so now that I've relished the thought I promise I will be extremely civil. I think the view from the high road is so much better, don't you?

I still wonder why I can't figure this stuff out on my own. And some of my friends I talk to just can't relate and don't understand. I get opinions at both ends of the spectrum. This, though, is an awesome place, and very theraputic!

THANK YOU THANK YOU,I'll keep you posted!

It's true. I've been through a lot in my life, as a lot of you all have. I have to say that while it feels so good to vent and rant and rave, it is much more effective to take back the power. Take control of what you choose to let eat at you, what you're angry about. Everyone is wronged at some point in life, but what matters is what you do from that point forward. I'd be lying if I said I don't have buttons right out there for my sd's to push, and they not only push, they knock me down. But, in the end I refuse to give them any part of me.

I'm working on this 'letter', laying out my ground rules, and I have to say, it feels good. By nature I choose to be a happy person, I'm a whole lot better at it than being mad all the time. I use humor. I should copy my letter here so you can all see it when I'm doing. My only mistake is that these 2 girls have no sense of humor at all, ha. If they can squint and tilt their heads and see any grain of negativity and twist into me launching an attack on them, they will. So be it. I'm being very gracious to give them this one last chance. I really don't care if they use it or lose it. Either way, they aren't going to ruin anything else in my life or my dh's life.

I do have reservations of sending something in writing. I would prefer a conversation with the more rational sd, although I'm well aware she will make a problem of just about anything I say, including compliments. The more I think of it, the more I do not want the other awful sd here at all. DH agrees there could be all sorts of problems but says my approach seems like a power play that will get a very bad reaction. I said of course it's a power play and it's my right because this is my house too. Unfortunately, his approach has been part of the problem all along. He never wants to cause his kids any angst, and they retaliate every chance they get. I am always expected to defer to them but I'm determined not to have dh pay the price any longer.

There is just no good answer. If he can't see his kids, he's upset. If he does see his kids, he's upset. He does say he doesn't know why they have to come right now, that it could wait until there's a better time. We both agree that he should not be dealing with any of this drama now. His present condition is good, but it's still early in his treatment. He'll feel the side effects more with every chemo session, so we don't know how he'll feel at any point in the future. Our main focus is caring for him and helping him fight the cancer.

My latest suggestion to him was for us to set a deadline for the two of us to try to come to an agreement and see if he and I can form a united front before we address anything with the sd's. So far, that's tomorrow. If we can't figure out how we'll approach the problem, I don't think we're ready for them to visit and we'll call it off until we can get a plan for how to put him and us first.

He has suggested flying to see them, but we're concerned about germs, and an airplane is not a good idea right now. I'd rather work this through now because there may come a time when those kids need to see him and it would be nice to have things somewhat corrected before that happens. My answer will be the same whenever this happens because we cannot keep doing the same as we've done before.

Grrr.

Thank you so much, keep passing your thoughts on to me because it really helps!

I'm so happy for you that your husband is well and that ugly time is behind you!

I don't know what our decision is yet but I know I do not want the awful ad here at all, ever.

We'll be talking about it soon, I'll see where dh's head is at today.

Well, nothing is happening, my dh 'just hasn't given any more thought', like he doesn't want to deal with it. This always happens. Leaves me flapping in the wind. I do not want to be hard on the poor guy, but he just does not want to deal with it.

My brother knows what happened with the awful sd, and he said no way would she be coming around if it were happening to them. That was sort of a compass for me, like I wasn't being horrible.

I hate this. DH thinks the sd's are probably wondering about what I'll do, too. They ought to be.

You're right, it's just that we agreed we'd make a decision by today. I overheard him talking to the oldest sd, making excuses about him maybe flying to where they live. I'm waiting to see if he's going to fill me in. He and I agreed we wouldn't say any more to them until we knew what our plan was. This is typical, he may not even tell me what they're talking about. So then it becomes them against me. Again. We do not need this right now.

Right, that's our dilemma, he should not be going on an airplane for a while. He already suggested he go out there despite that, and oldest sd said no, that she'd still come here. This is typical of him to go right ahead and discuss things with them when I've asked him not to. He claims ignorance and expects me to buy it. He just does not want to deal with any of this, and neither do I! But I told him since he acted on his own, so will I, so I will be calling oldest sd. The youngest is not coming anywhere near me, my mind is made up about that. Just that fact may keep them both away. I can always hope.

Most likely she will take my call all wrong and my words will get severely twisted, but either way it will accomplish my goal, which is either you respect me and my home or don't come. If she does what she usually does she won't be coming so the matter will be settled, for now and forever.

I totally agree that my boundaries are not negotiable, certainly by her. And yes, they always do lead with their aggression, they've learned it works for them. They make their dad feel incredibly guilty when he sees them in distress. Especially this older sd, she is his favorite, he thinks she walks on water. I am not a member of her fan club but I've always felt we could get along just fine, and we have at times. From the time they were young, their mom wanted detailed reports of visits with us and if the kids didn't tell her something ugly she'd keep raking them over the coals until they did. She did not want to hear anything good about us. She's conditioned them.

Thanks for the suggestion on what to say, that will come in handy. I also want to point out to her to not talk bad about me like she always does or it stirs up all kinds of s--t. I'll not word it quite that way, ha.

You know, these 2 sd's have always been very jealous of the fact that my two girls grew up with their dad. They have a tight bond with him. From day 1 the bm has instructed the sd's to bring about as much hate and guilt on us as they can muster, and they still do, every chance they get. The sd's now realize their mom is crazy, but their sympathy lies with her, cuz you know, she's a victim of divorce and the divorce is the cause of everything and anything bad in any of their lives.

At a contrast is my situation with my ex, where he just didn't want to be a dad anymore, so my girls welcomed a loving father figure. SD's do nothing but push him away. He's a good man, and they've wasted a lot of time.

I'm going to make some notes to have in front of me, or I may not remember to say everything I need to say. I think dh is nervous about this, but I've asked him not to tell either sd that I plan to call the one. We'll see if he does it anyway, then offers an excuse later. He keeps that up, he'll be the one that makes the separation permanent. That may even be his easy way out of this.

I called the older sd, had a longer talk than I expected. She was very open to talking, but wants to fix the situation with the evil younger sd, too, prior to her visiting soon. I kept telling her she can't be responsible for that and to let that sd and their dad work it out. I think she's going to call the younger sd and lay some ground work. Whatever. I told her that if they don't respect both of us and our home that it'll be the last time we'll go through this. Their dad's health is at stake.

The older sd said she thinks everyone has things to apologize for, and I told her that if the younger sd can tell me what she wants me to apologize for, and if I owe her an apology, she will get it. But, I also said that I would not do anything any different if that last awful blow up were to happen again. (We had to tell her and her 'boyfriend' to leave.) She got one side of it, a very embellished side. Everyone knows the younger sd is a habitual liar. I told her a few things she didn't know, but she still is working on behalf of her sister, and always will.

This sd says she thinks it was a mistake for her dad to separate me and them because it made her feel like he was telling them they couldn't be a part of his life here. (In my mind, it's OK if that was the message because if they are going to abuse the situation, then, well, they aren't welcome here.) She also said she was angry when we had the falling out with the younger sd because we had an "it's me or your daughter" attitude. (Yep, it was me or his daughter, after her vulgar and hostile behavior toward me.) So this sd doesn't get that those were our intentions, she just wants to point out that we were wrong.

I held my position. I'm OK with it for now, but I don't think those kids are ever going to change. They always have been and always will be too self-centered to consider anyone else's position. I still feel like my dh isn't any better off in escaping stress when it comes to the sd's and I think I still may have to draw the line for the sake of the cancer fight. That in itself will likely be very bad for him, too. At least I can say I tried if things go badly, but this is not a clear-cut path.

When I told my husband about this call, he said he really did not want older sd talking to younger sd at all about their situation (the falling out due to younger sd's outbursts and anger). He wants to try to mend fences with younger sd without interference from older sd. If he had said that sooner, I would have realized that we cannot have both sd's here at the same time anyway just for that reason, because he's right, it will foul everything up. It's crystal clear now that we should have been telling them both all along that older sd is fine to visit, as long as she's respectful, which she will be while here. It's after she goes home that the drama usually begins. The younger evil sd can go to dinner with her dad or do something brief, then they can work their way up to where they want to be. (She lives a few hours away, the older sd is a long plane ride away.)

So, this update is to explain that this will be our approach and dh and I are definitely on the same page, I'm sure of it. The only thing I'm not sure of is he said he left a message for older sd so he could ask her not to talk to younger sd about this until he's had a chance to talk to her first. Interesting that he said he left a message yet I didn't hear him saying anything, and that was at least 2 hours ago, so I'm not sure why this sd wouldn't be calling him back yet. So I think he's still hesitating in dealing with this, or at least I have my doubts. It's like he wants enough time to pass so the plans can't be changed, but I'm being very persistent and won't accept that this time.

Older sd told me some things that dh does not agree with today, and he says he knows she plays a game, so at least he admits that. This is his 'favorite' and I'm surprised he admits she's manipulative.

I'm sorry if I'm being confusing about the sd's and what's what. If I need to clear that up maybe someone can let me know. (I guess I know what I'm talking about, ha.)

It was all about the younger sd, as I expected. SHE was over it, SHE thought everyone was going to be grown-up about it, SHE has never been wanted here, dh chose me over HER...How Dare He! Her reaction said it all, that we were right to stop her from coming here for all the same reasons as before. Younger sd told her dad that he can visit her after he's been treated for the cancer. Poor, poor sd. SHE never apologized or asked me if she could come, SHE assumed she could plan whatever she wanted, SHE should have known SHE will never darken my doorstep again. She's toxic and she's ugly to all who don't give her her way. Even the older sd now says she didn't see how it was going to work. (She's changed her tune with the direction of the wind.) Older sd keeps asking how it is ever going to be mended, and dh finally told her it may never be. DH did tell older sd that the family has helped to breed this monster because they always let her get away with awful behavior. They forgive her immediately, because, you know, 'she's our sister and we love her and that's just the way she is.'

The part I still struggle with is that my dh lets them know how sympathetic he is to them. He basically tells them he's sorry he can't let them have their way, he even told the ugly sd that he knows it must be insulting that she can't come to her father's home, and he's apologetic. (!!) It unravels the message as I think it needs to be said. He said he realizes he talks too much about it to them, because he starts saying things he should never say. I told him I wish he could understand what we need to do as well as I do, because if he did he would know better what statements to not say. (At first he was getting angry with me because I was disappointed in what he was saying. He said he can't use my words exactly. That was disarming because I've repeated to him that he needs to not use my words, but that he needs to follow 'our' plan, 'we' agreed on what steps to take.) Apparently he can't remember what to say or what 'our' plan is exactly until he's talking to me. The more emotionally charged things get with the sd's the more befuddled dh gets. That's probably typical.

I realize it seems like dh is playing me and the sd's against each other, and frankly, it does feel that way sometimes. His stating that he just wants everyone to get along makes my defensive plan look spiteful or cold. Whatever, I'm sticking to my guns. It'll be enough to have older sd visit next week. It's just for a few days, but I will have my fill of sd's for a long while. I wish dh could enjoy older sd while she's here, but we both know it won't be quite that easy. There's always the dreaded aftermath where everything turns fictional.
And then the next chapter begins....

Yes, I've said that for years, that everything is hinges on what dh does. He just doesn't get it. He keeps trying to talk around and out of issues instead of just saying what needs to be said. He keeps telling the sd's everything they want to hear, including sympathy. He wants to make sure the world keeps revolving around their feet, to hell with the rest of us.

I think the things I'm most uncomfortable with are 1.) the resentment I know my husband feels for the situation because I know he blames me too, and 2.) the sd's accusing me of things I have never done and taking their hostility to such a damaging level. I don't think anything is ever going to change. I told my dh that I'm bummed because I really wish this visit were not going to take place right now, and I hate that all this is going on again. This was supposed to be the time when we would be spared this b.s. His reply was to tell me he hopes I can let go of it. He means well, but that isn't what I was hoping to hear. I know I'll never hear what I want to hear, which is for them all to get real about life. I'd love to hear him tell the sd's that this is just not a good time, and maybe he can deal with the friction when he's feeling better. I'd love for him to abide by the things we talk about, the plan we were supposed to formulate between the two of us then present to the sd's. He just isn't that sharp mentally and emotionally. Intellectually, yes, but his emotions dictate everything when it comes to the older sd, his fav.

I live my life with a clear conscience, always try to do the right thing, and like to be a responsible, mature person. I have never dealt well with being accused of doing things I haven't done. I can't get out of my head that someone says I've done something bad when I work so hard to do the right thing. Always.

I guess I'm thinking that this visit probably won't go real well, or it will be OK then older sd will start in with telling the others how badly I mistreated her. And, I'm thinking once she goes down that road again, that'll be that. At least that will be the final nail in the coffin.

I just really wish we didn't have to go through this right now. Or at all.

Thanks, StepAside, for your encouraging words. Now if you could just explain to the sd's what life is all about, I'd really appreciate it!

This is really a case of the ex-wife perpetually drilling into her kids' brains that they are all victims of their dad leaving that marriage. She is the ultimate 'scorned woman', even though the marriage was over before I came into the picture. She has used the fact that we live in different states to elaborate a story that does not exist as to how my dh and I came to be together. This is something she doesn't know the first thing about, but is the authority on the subject as far as her kids see it. She is completely irrational most of the time, the kids deal with her difficult behavior all the time under many different circumstances. But, she has their sympathy. She uses her position as their mother to milk it for all she can get, and she does get a lot. She has often threatened suicide to get her way with them. And it is all sad to them because, you know, their dad left her. She's taught them all the same behavior, because, you know, their dad left. Anything that goes wrong in their lives is because, you know, their dad left. They have all told him several times that they realize no man could stay with her, the way she is, but everything that isn't considered the ultimate success has failed because, you know, their dad left.

Shame on any woman, or man for that matter, who pins their problems on a failed marriage. It takes two. And both parties have to pick up and move on regardless of how wounded they are, or why. This ex is pathetic and she is the one who has to live with what she does to her kids. Not me. I'm the one who almost moved to their town a couple of times, just so they could all be close. Thank god I didn't do that!

My dh has absorbed everything his kids have thrown at him because he thinks he's making it easier on them to do so. He thinks he's sparing them any more of their mother's wrath. I don't know if this is true or not, I doubt it because she has proven to be determined no matter what. I see that as my dh being controlled by her, his actions are geared around trying to avoid more of her damage for the kids first, and for him second. My wishes come third, after the ex and after the skids. I get that some of the time, but when it comes to our home and our marriage and our decisions, I draw the line. Never used to, but sure do now.

Frankly, my dh doesn't focus well in the midst of his daughter's anguish, as I think a lot of fathers have a hard time doing. They know very well that their upsets make him frantic to bring them relief. I'm sick of this tactic, and now it's his turn for us to bring about relief to him. He has a hard time communicating things to his kids unless they're things he knows they want to hear. Also a trait a lot of parents share. The problem is that the sd's won't stop making it about them and their issues. DH is coming to the realization that this is never going to work, and will likely go back to visiting his kids without me. My preference, too.

This morning the older sd texted dh asking if he'd like her to put her visit off. We all this put to rest, but the fact that she brings it up again means she's feeling guilty about coming when the younger evil sd can't, and it's entirely possible the younger evil sd asked her sister not to come, just to show us. Who knows. DH called her and asked why she would question it again when it was all talked about and determined. He held his position, so good for him. He told her she's welcome to come, unless there's a reason not to. As of right now, she is coming, but I wonder if we'll hear yet another round. Historically, this won't rest until we see her here.

Thanks for your thoughts, I don't mean to blast them back at you. Just sort of filling in the blanks on the history. I appreciate every bit of support I find here!

SD visit is over, and DH and I think it went well. He even said he was 'watching like a hawk' for anything that sd could later claim I did to her. He thought I was great, his words, and I'm actually believing that he wouldn't act otherwise to his kids. I told him I was myself, didn't feel I did anything any different than I ever do, and he agreed. By nature, I am good with people, very friendly, very likeable, and I don't treat his kids any different. It was nice that he said he saw me as being my usual good-natured self before I even had to ask his opinion of how things went. (I'm not tooting my own horn here, just being honest.) SD and I were very cordial and friendly to each other, like we have been before. To me, this is how it should be, more 'normal' for our relationship.

SD was very, very chatty, very cooperative and almost too eager to please. She usually tells people what they want to hear to the point of over-selling herself or her position. This is her typical behavior. Her popularity is very important to her, apparently even when it comes to me. No one brought up the younger evil sd, and it was a pleasant visit without her around. I don't think anyone now doubts that keeping her away was the right thing to do, at least so far.

The real test for this sd will be what happens next. She told her dad she had a very enjoyable visit, but if she doesn't trash me in the aftermath it will be the first time. Hopefully she'll know better not to put her dad through this while he's battling cancer.

There are things about her personality that I don't admire, but that doesn't have anything to do with her position in my life as my sd. For example, she's very, very vain. She tans so much she's orange, and at one point my kids stopped by to say hello and after greeting them for several minutes she left the room to put on a tight top, curl her hair and put on eye make-up. She emerged quite different and like she was on display. She looked just fine before this makeover, but she wanted to impress. Whatever. It makes her look very insecure, although I think she thinks it just makes her look nothing but gorgeous, ha.

So, for this chapter we've avoided more destruction thus far. There will be another round, possibly after evil sd visits with older sd this weekend. If so, I hope they keep it away from us because if either one of them presents us with any hostility whatsoever, we'll be cutting them off.

If any one of you are struggling with the balance of marriage and family, let this experience teach us all that we must put our spouse and our marriage first. Family should enhance what we have, not destroy it. The destroyers must be disabled. It's the only way. I know I'm very glad we took this stance, and my dh came around, too.

I did get the sense that she felt she had to do some ass kissing. When I called her before she came out, to clear the air a bit, she claimed amnesia on the stunts she always pulled in the past. Even dh found that excuse to be ridiculous. She's older now with kids of her own but I can tell the same attitude is just under the surface. I was sure to be nice but I'm cautious and don't trust her or believe her for a second.

You are right about these kids being above society's expectations for civilized behavior. They are the exception to that rule, probably always will be, thanks to the bm. She's a real piece of work! I've grown to be very comfortable with the distance and the separation, but now that the road is opening up again I think of it as a gift to my dh. I am more determined than ever to keep the boundaries in place with no wavering, as dh is known to do. I think he may even be glad I've taken this stance. I don't know if this sd realizes that she's at a fork in the road but I will have no reservations about blocking her completely if she makes the wrong choices now. Time will tell.

As for evil sd, the others said what I've been feeling for a long time; that she probably will never learn or change to the point she has to to come back into my world. DH has his guard up and will for a very long time. What an ugly way to go through life, actually despising the people who interfere with your entitlements. When I think of the difference between me and her, I think that she's miserable, angry, and ugly. I'm happy because I choose to be, and I make choices that bring happiness to those I care about. So, I win. Yaay!

Isn't it interesting that you have it on both sides, your skids and your sm. We have it sort of like that, too, my ex is very vindictive and hurtful, as is my dh's ex. Here we are, the nice guys, caught in the middle but not wanting to let that poison affect the kids. The exes know it and use it to their advantage. Even though the kids are grown they still get their feelings hurt and feel the failures of those parents. My oldest daughter is very nice to my exes replacement wife out of fear she'll push her dad farther away. There is no fear of that kind on my dh's side! What a weird dynamic the divorced family creates.