When do we tell SS the truth?
On the Alienation quiz, a question asks do you talk about child support in front of the child.
My question is at what age do you tell the child the truth about BM’s paycheck (CS) and other prized received in the divorce?
Here BM got about 250k up front in cash and property (land, she sold), a new car (free of debt), a classic car, $1000 a month CS, $300 for medical insurance (2 years worth) and half his frequent flyer points (seriously….she called every 6 months wanted airfare for 3 years…pissed me off).
BM got her cash, quit her job and went to a 9 month cert program…..she lived off of her divorce prizes. She got a brand new house, put tiled floors in, a 20k swimming pool and 10k worth of landscaping. She put 30k(!!!!!...I saw the bills) in the classic car for repairs and a paint job, she was using half her frequent flyer points to take herself on really nice vacations (she told the kid there was a death in her family and dumped him here), of course wine and dined herself and her friends……tons of new clothes…..etc.
Not only did she have 250k, she cranked up 50k worth to credit card debt, refin’ed her house twice and had 2 equity loans.
She filed bankruptcy and turned her house over in Feb.
She has spent as little as possible on the kid….last Christmas she gave him $20, the years when she had tons of money she told us she only spent $50 on him, she also showed us a Rolex that she got for her BF.
All she has ever told the kid is she is broke and it’s your father’s fault. The kid has begging DH to help BM out with some cash.
We never say anything in front of him about CS and money. The kid has said more than once, you got whatever and mom can’t afford to eat ……why didn’t you give mom the money?
He is 16. We have been looking like bad guys for years!!! DH showed her older the son (he’s 26) the divorce decree……he just said……HOLY SHIT she spent that much!!!
When do we tell the 16 yo the truth?
IMO at 16 it might be time.
IMO at 16 it might be time. Especially if he thinks BM has no money or have him do some research himself, tell him a "friend" wants to remodel and wants to do ALL the home improvements BM did to her house, the new tile, the new pool, ect. Have him find out the cost of it. Hopefully by you guys showing him the cost of such things, mebbe he'll put the 2 together. If he doesn't put the 2 together maybe then show him.
I totally agree he needs to
I totally agree he needs to know the truth he is way old enough to know. He will have a light bulb moment too.
At 16 years old, how can the
At 16 years old, how can the kids not see that she isn't working, yet she had a new car, a new house, & money to remodel? He's an immature kid, but he's old enough to observe. I found that DH's son would make those very statements knowing good & well that if BM wanted more, she could get a job. It was just a way for him to create drama between DH & BM...as though they needed help in doing so, & it helped him feel like he was being her "supporter" by fighting for her. I can't imagine your SS is bewildered with the situation as he indicates. When to tell? I think it all depends on how open he'll be to recieving it. I wouldn't do it if it's likely to require convincing on your DH's part.
Your story makes me nervous.
Your story makes me nervous. My DH and I are celebrating our 9th next week and I don't know if we will make it to our 10th...
SCARY
Can't you tell the 16 year
Can't you tell the 16 year old to go talk to the 26 year old about that?
If he keeps whining about "poor" BM maybe somebody should set the kid straight. I'd send him to the older sibling first.
I was called a gold digger
I was called a gold digger too.
She also asked for half of the kid's expenses....the divorce decree clearly stated half of medical expenses. But in her mind that meant 1/2 of all expenses. SHe took the kid to the movies....she got half. She went shopping.....she got half. The one time she went to Kohl's and told me about all the clothe she got for herself....it was $150. DH came outside she asked him for $75. Stupid gave it too her. I put an end to that...she asked for money for something...I hand her an itemized bill of what she owed me!
She had enough to pay for her house, instead she decided that the equity during the boom was her money....she refin'ed and equity'ed it. Then it ballooned and she turned it in. She could have paid off that house and lived decently on her part-time job.
When the kid was at her house....he ate her left over lunches. The kid lived on mac & cheese and 89 cent burritos......when she dropped the kid off she would brag that she was having her friends over for lobster, crab legs, and "shrimps".
She is now in section 8 housing, with a SUV that is in need of repair, no credit cards......she is finding out what broke is. In 19 months...her paycheck (CS) will stop......she'll be ever "broker".
My daughter is 15 and I am up
My daughter is 15 and I am up front with her about how much her Dad contributes financially. Not in a negative way towards him but just as a matter of fact.
He is plenty old enough.
He is plenty old enough. Make sure Dad is not judgemental when he shows her the documents. Just the facts and let the boy judge.
Wow you guys, I am kind of
Wow you guys, I am kind of relieved to read this, and a little scared.
I have been really beating myself up lately because SD and I have many conversations about all kinds of things. Unfortunately, some of it is related to BM and DH. I am the one that is home with her right now, every day. Dh is on the road working, and BM does not have custody. DH does talk to SD when she asks questions. BM does not talk at all to SD directly about money, but used to talk to her family within SD's earshot of how "poor" she is, and how much more money DH makes.
SD knows some of what has gone on between BM and DH. We shield her from some of it, because if she knew the full extent, she would go over the top angry again with her mom. But she knows the gist of it. That BM owes DH money, that it is a sizable sum ($30,000) and that that $ is for her dad to secure his own future, not just turn it all over to her for college.
It's such a tough call. What I am having a hard time trying to define is PAS alienation vs. telling the truth, when the truth will make the skid see the other parent in an unflattering light. And when is it not PAS or alienation anymore? When is it just telling the truth?
I can tell you that next year for us here will be very stressful. BM has until May 1st to pay DH. Ugh.
Stick, you're not doing
Stick, you're not doing anything wrong.
When SD14 was 10 I got sick of her telling us that her mama was SO POOR, and why didn't Daddy help out? I told her exactly how much DH was paying in CS. She shut up on that subject quick.
Unfortunately, it backfired to the point where I have found myself defending BM, because this teenager has no clue how little $622/month covers. Especially when BM (now remarried to a "good provider") lives right on the edge of her household income and still says "we can't afford that" a lot. Until she's 18 and out of the household, I'm not going to badmouth BM.
All you can do is present verifiable facts. Your SD will figure out what's going on - a lot sooner than you think she will, unless she's PASed to the max.
Thanks NCMilGal... When your
Thanks NCMilGal... When your SD is 18, do you think you will feel like SD is now an "adult" so she can hear it all?
It all depends on the
It all depends on the skid.
Unlike you, our BM didn't defraud DH of huge amounts of money; mostly because he didn't make that much and instead she ran up the credit cards. He ended up having to declare bankruptcy because he took all the debts.
What we're doing right now is just avoiding badmouthing BM. She does stupid crap like tell SD14 "That's ALL your dad got you for Christmas? I think he should have spent more on you." Instead of saying "That's really stupid!" or "That's because your mother equates love with money," I said, "Your mom wants what's best for you. Of course, her idea of "best" and ours are a little different..." (btw, the present was a $300 netbook, not a package of socks or underwear)
At some point once she's an adult, I think we're going to have a "Why I don't like your mom and wouldn't even if you and your dad didn't exist" talk, which I won't get into while she's actually living with BM. SD14 has to live with BM, unless she decides otherwise, and she's bought into the guilt trip of "Mama NEEEEEEEDS you!" There's no point in making their relationship worse.
Thanks Maux. I understand
Thanks Maux. I understand what you are saying. We do try to do just facts, and by doing so we (DH & I ) are telling SD that she actually is not entitled to what BM gives DH. That has come up, in a small way, and I told SD that it is between her mom and her dad, and that that $$ has nothing really to do with her, but rather it is for her dad to decide what to do with, take care of his retirement for example. I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to hurt myself or do something to jeopardize DH & I, that's for sure. And I really don't want to hurt BM, which is why SD does NOT know that BM hasn't paid us any child support in the past 2 years. SD knows that BM owes DH $$, but does not know the exact amount (she knows it's a decent sum, but not the amount) and she does not know that 10 grand of it is child support.
I know you aren't trying to be mean. I understand your point. Thank you!
I, too, struggle with this
I, too, struggle with this topic. Although technically it is "none of my business", I know that there will HAVE to be a time that I set the record straight with skids once they're adults. I'm just so tired of BM playing the "victim" when she basically lives off the CS$$ my BF pays her and has for over 6 years!!!
About a year ago, SSstb13 was giving my BF a hard time about wanting him to buy him something (I forget what it was - maybe new jeans or something). SSstb13 mouthed off to my BF and said something like "You NEVER buy us anything...Mom ALWAYS spends HER money buying things for us!!". Mind you, this was RIGHT after my BF & I just returned from taking them on a 10-day vacation which included a 5-day cruise out of Florida to the Caribbean!!!! We had just literally spent THOUSANDS $$$ on them when this confrontation between my BF and SS happened!!! Unbelievable!!
Finally, my BF had reached a breaking point, I guess. My BF NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER discussed CS with the skids before. He said to SS "SSstb13, when your mother and I were divorced, we agreed that I would give her money to help support you even though you live with her the same amount of time you live with me. I give your mother over $1,000/mo. (which, btw, is a joke because he didn't tell him the REAL amount is over $1,600/mo.!!!!) for you & your sister, so that she is able to buy you & your sister whatever you need. So you need to go ask your mother if she'll buy you those _____ (again, I think it was jeans, I can't remember).
I was like GOOOOOOO BF!!!!!! I couldn't BELIEVE IT!!! He actually defended himself!! After 6+ years of BM PASing the skids to make them believe that their father was a deadbeat dad (after all, they ALWAYS saw her spend "her" money taking them school shopping, etc... Hello???? If she barely works more than 1-2 days/week, where do they think it all comes from???), my BF FINALLY said something to skids to make them realize the REALITY of the situation - that he PAYS FOR EVERYTHING!!
To this day, I also hope & pray that they are smart enough to say to themselves "hey, where is that $1,000/mo. going if Mom doesn't buy anything for us?" and when they see her constantly getting her own hair & nails done.
We've been struggling with
We've been struggling with this for as long as I've known DH. He wants to tell his kids (SD13 and SS10) about how much he has tried to be there for them but that BM would avoid phone calls give wrong pick up times and squandered their CS (until we got her court ordered to find full time employment *giggle*). He is waiting until they get a little older but SD is starting to ask question about where was Daddy when she was younger. While I do my best to respect his wishes and not have the full conversation with her, I refuse to allow that hurt and accusation sit unanswered. Some day we will have the full "this is the crap your BM pulled" conversation (complete with phone records to prove how much DH was calling), but for now I am quick to point out that DH did try, stopping just short of turning the accusation back around to BM.
I remember as a teen finding
I remember as a teen finding out that my dad was paying a whopping $390/month in child support for 3 kids. I found out because the stepmom at the time handed ME the check to give to my mom "cause I know she needs the money". Dad/stepmom seemed to expect that I would feel bad for them in their 2-bedroom condo when my mom/stepdad had a 4-bedroom house cause of the "burden of child support". By that age, I knew that $390/month didn't cover our tuition at our high school, let alone the mortgage.
Most teens know the deal. SS might just not be able to admit that his mom is..well, who she is..and still wants dad to rescue her. I think having 26-yr old SS speak with him is probably your best option as he won't feel that knee-jerk response to defend her that he likely gets with you and his dad.
i would say unless he
i would say unless he directly asks you for proof as to why you're so broke, don't get him involved, it's between mom and dad, no one else, don't force it on him, but tell him truth with proof of the decree if he asks :sick:
If BM spouts BullShit, tell
If BM spouts BullShit, tell SS the truth from the beginning. You should temper the message to the age of the kid but tell the truth. 16 is more than old enough to have the complete truth and don't sugarcoat it.
The next time he asks your DH to give money to BM, DH should respond "I have given her more than a third of a million dollars. Your mother has a problem managing her money and I will not give her more money to make poor decisions with. If you want to know why your mother is broke ask her about the many vacations she has taken while telling you that her family members passed away, ask her how much she spent restoring the classic car I gave her in the divorce, remodelling the house I gave her in the divorce, ask her how much she spent on the Rolex watch she gave her boyfriend and how much she has spent hosting parties for her friends."
Facts are not good or bad, they are just facts and the Skid deserves the facts and to have the manipulations perpetrated on him by his BM countered with fact and the truth.
IMHO of course.
This thread certainly hits
This thread certainly hits home for me too and then some! I also struggle with PAS, but in all my research and talking to therapists, the truth, so long as it is the truth, not one parents opinion, and tailored to the child's age, is difficult to associate with PAS.
I'm SM to 3 SS's. BD doesn't work and his unemployment has run out (he was unemployed when BM divorced him). There are no jobs, not even part time, so he is "daycare" for the youngest 2 days a week. I wfh and it's difficult to have him here while I'm trying to work, but I simply can't afford daycare.
BM was having BD pay for Daycare on HER DAYS. BM has remodeled her home. She got EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING in the divorce. She says we have more $$ than her because I have "new" stuff. Well, that's because we had an empty home, I had 1 bed from my prior marriage and a few pots and pans. Everything else, the furniture, kitchen items, clothes, toys, food everything I have purchased with BD's help (unemployment) but the majority of it came from me cleaning out my savings account (over 8k) to provide a home for BD, Skids and me. That was supposed to be for my move out of my Ex's home, but now I'm 8k in debt and it will be a long time with interest before I make that back up.
I have obligations from my past marriage and when all is said and one, we have less than $150/wk for food, clothes and gas (and we provide all tranportation to/from school and daycare even on her days in MY car). BM still demands that BD pay for 50% of all expenses like Dr. Appts, prescriptions, school clothes, etc. BM literally just tells me how much I owe HER. More often than not because BD isn't working she'll make the appts on our days so he's required to pay the copays and she won't pay them back, always citing some expense she had, like "oh I bought ss a new pair of shoes, so we're even", knowing full well, it was my $$ that paid for that Dr. Appt.
SS10 keeps asking why we make BM pay for things (he sees her buy them, but not ME pay her back). She says things when they are out shopping like, "Oh, you'll need this at BD's house since they won't buy it for you". I bought 2 pairs of (admittedly crappy shoes) because the ones she gave us were hand-me-downs after I don't know how many years and literally fell apart while the kids were playing. BM had the nerve the following week when dropping them off to say, "I would've never bought those, they are so cheap, they're just going to fall apart, I'll get them new shoes" and then shows up asking for 1/2 the cost.
BM also is slowly instilling into the kids that as their SM, if BD isn't working, then it's my obligation to get them everything they need here, that she takes care of her house, we take care of ours. BM actually believes (and I quote, "well, since you guys got married, you're (SM) income is added to BD's unemployment and you guys would owe me CS if I asked for it". This stemmed from a conversation about us not being able to afford Daycare anymore (on HER DAYS). She said, fine, then SS3 can just stay with BD during the day, it's free. I said, no.. if SS3 is going to be in our home on her days, then I would expect her to pay me. I even said I would charge her less than daycare. Her response was, well, if I have to pay for any of their care at your house, then I'll just put them all in before/after school programs and full-time daycare. That floored me, she's essentially saying, if she has to pay, then she'd rather pay MORE $$ to some outside care provider (rather than being with their own BD), then has the nerve to say she needs us to buy them new clothes.
I'm slowly and carefully broaching the $$ issue with the oldest SS10. I tell him that with BD out of work, I do what I can, but I just don't have as much as BM to get them toys 3x/week, to get them special sheet sets for their beds, etc. I do honestly feel bad, if I had more, it would go to my Skids, but it would be nice for BM to own up, I know she considers me her "free ride". I hope that this type of honesty, which is exactly what it is, will help SS's understand how my I have contributed and BM has done nothing.
I wish everyone in this situation patience and good luck.. it's a delicate place to be... I do have to add this... I don't blame BM or BD, I blame the courts. They go to such extremes when a couple with children divorce (wait period, mandatory separation, counseling), but when the CS order listed $0 paid/owed by either parent, they didn't take a 2nd look to see it was 50/50 custody and BD had $400/mo income while BM had $4800. How they could just let that get through. Shouldn't the courts look out for the kids well being and say.. hmmm...
Most of that sucks, but I
Most of that sucks, but I honestly don't understand why the father wouldn't watch the 3 year old if he isn't working - that means more time with the child for him and less money the mother has to spend on daycare and can use for other expenses...