No times
So dh and I has had a CO with his ex for 6yrs now. I get the CO and how it works. Well my younger sister is now going thru this with her ex. Their LO is 1yo. I gave her a ton of advice on how to get her CO just right so she's not being taken advantage of.....well she missed her court date *face palm*. There were about 3 dates on the paper but my mom and I thought she'd have it all down. Welp the temp CO was created without her. Only her ex and his gf were able to work one out. I saw it online and emailed it to my sister. The worst and biggest issue is there are 0 times.....0
I'm wondering how in the heck was this thing made with no times and no address....it is a temp order and the perm order is scheduled for next month. Welp you can imagine how the past 6wks have been. The ex has been late every visit. Once he's even been 3hrs late. She waited bc she wants her daughter. He gives no excuses and says he'd be late when she's already there. Yesterday for the first time she finally told him he's not getting the baby bc she's already there and he said it again. He said he'd contact authorities. She said fine give her info.
She's meeting with her lawyer today. Hoping she can get a Court date sooner than mid Nov. Has this happened to anyone?? How can a mediator approve a CO without times?? Of course it's my sister fault for not even making that date so she has to deal with it but I'm jus shocked a temp order has no times. Has anyone heard of this? It simply says meet in the morning or afternoon for certain days.
I don't exactly understand
I don't exactly understand the issue.. is it that he DOES have set days.. but that the pick up and drop offs are not set at a certain time? and they talk about a time.. then he is late?
My thoughts are this. She can't withhold visitation if he is late. If he comes to the house on a date he is allowed visitation and she and the child are there? she should give him the child.
If, however, they plan to meet at the Walmart parking lot at noon and he doesn't show up by 12:30.. she would be within her rights to just go home.. or on with her day and not wait at the parking lot for hours with no communication. But.. if she is at home later and he comes by? she should allow him to take the child.
I might suggest she have her lawyer put in specific times on the final order to help for this.. BUT.. the problem still is that I don't know that she is going to be able to deny him visitation if he is late.. but he could be possibly held in contempt if he doesn't return the child on time.
I would also wonder if there had been any communication for the lateness.. did she try to call him.. did he respond? did he give any reason? in the end.. she should still try to support a relationship with the father.. unless there are concerns of safety with him.. like if he's late because she thinks he is doing drugs.
Yes
You're correct that they have to agree to a time. They have a time they'd normally go with but every single time they are to meet he's late. It's always over 30mins. The worst was the 3 hrs. It's like a game to him especially since they speak days before of the time. She asked for a default time and he doesn't respond. He never gives a reason. Let's say they're to meet at 730pm. Right at 730 or 10mins before with them both living 30mins from the location...she's either already there or almost there and he always says he's late. I'm not sure how long it's been maybe 6 to 8wks of him being late for every meet-up is a bit insane. She's missed work before esp from the 3hr one. No updating no saying anything just arrived that late after she's messaged him multiple times. As soon as she speaks up he's calling authorities? It all just feels like a game and this is her own fault for not going bc if she went she'd had an iron clad CO. I had a whole outline for her so this is her result but wow I didn't think her ex would be so annoying with it. He says he doesnt want to talk to her but keeps creating this repeated predicament where they have to talk to another. It's all games seem
Communication
She's the only one that communicates his reply is 40% he may respond. She sends me screenshots bc she's lost to what to do and she doesn't always take my advice. But yes she's called and texted everytime. With the 3hr one she called the police and they took awhile to get there. She just feels stuck and so hopefully her lawyer can get it changed sooner than the current date. They meet weekends and midweek. It's alot of needing to communicate with someone that says they don't want to. Strange he's even asking for full. His actions aren't really showing that imo but everytime she's given the child until last night bc she's stuck on how to make this pattern stop. Also what if she has plans how can he constantly jus be late and she just go with it?
She needs to do some planning
She needs to do some planning here with what to do when he is going to be late. (and still try to get this set in the CO)
1. One option is to make him pick up the child at her home.. that way she isn't having to wait at some random location. Along with this is that she should only agree to a time for exchange when she won't have a problem if he is late.. by less than an hour.
2. When he is late by over an hour.. she needs to plan for what she will do then. If she will have a work committment.. she needs to have a backup child care person in place. If she has to do that.. she sends him a message. XH, I waited X hours for you to pick up child at our agreed upon time. You did not show up, so I have arranged child care for my work shift. I will not be available to meet for your visitation until X time/date (the next morning for example). and.. When he threatens the authorities.. I would tell him There is no one who would expect me to leave my work to meet you after you were 3 hours late. I had to assume you were going to miss visitation. I will meet you tomorrow morning at 8 am if you want to have child the rest of the weekend. But, if you want to have the authorities contact me, that is fine, I will welcome the chance to discuss this with them.
Good points here
Thanks for your help. This is good for what's happening now. This should help with future visits. I see what you're saying he should still have his child but she can make it less inconvenient for herself. I like this. Thanks and yes this should do at least until that next court date when it's perm. That perm one needs times, location and stipulations for sure.
Make sure that it's
Make sure that it's stipulated clearly what "late' is, in minutes, not hours.
I also suggest doing the handover at the local police station. Would he want to look bad to police officers by being repeatedly late if he's going to call them to help him get his child later?
Good point
Anything to promote following the CO. This is a good one!
I don't know how you miss
I don't know how you miss court but Thank goodness this isn't the final order. She needs to learn from this. Meeting halfway isn't working. Change it to you pick up your child to start your time. 30 minutes is plenty of leeway time to forfeit visitation. ExH & BM's husband met 4 hours away from each of their homes and were never more then 45 minutes off of the scheduled time & that was due to an accident. This is a power play and she needs to nip it in the butt.
We need a list for court orders... These are the ones I think cause the most issues.
Did I miss anything?
This is good
I know...it bugs me to NO end. And to think i saw the freaking date and said nothing thinking "theres no way shes gonna miss it" uggghhhh.
I have alot drafted but these additional points, as excessive as they seem, at first glance....with this guy it may be necessary sadly. He's playing so much so early it's incredibly ballsy and to request full at the 2nd date. Yes they met for some wasted reason again but no changes happened bc he said he didn't want to communicate. He said I only want full nothing else. And so the CO stayed. I am floored with how her custody arrangement is going really.
If he's gonna be this petty well yes everything needs to be added to this updated CO. She spoke to the lawyer and I'm getting more info now but it doesn't sound great. For some reason the lawyer needs more time than the current court date?? I'm talking next yr... Trying to get clarification on this.
For now these added specifications seem necessary. Thanks for these
We had a long distance visitation order.
My DW always had full physical and legal custody, left SpermLand with SS for University when SS was barely a year old, and never returned to live in SpermLand. There was no visitation schedule in the original CO that stipulated DW as the full physical & legal custodian of SS and set CS at $110/mo . That CO was issued a few weeks before SS's 1st Bday.
A week after we married and a few days before SS-31 turned 2yo we were in court fighting the SpermClan's attempt to take custody. Nope. Full physical and legal for DW was upheld, CS was raised from $110/mo to $133/mo, and a long distance visitation schedule was invoked. The SpermCLan got 7wks of visitation per year (5wks Summer, 1wk Winter, 1wk Spring). Winter and Spring visitation start dates were set. Even years winter was from teh day school was out until Dec 24th. Odd years was Dec 26 until the day before school restarted. Spring was from the day school was out until the day before school started at the end of Spring Break. Summer was from the start date the SpermClan requested until the last day of their visitation when SS had to be returned to us at or before the time he was surrendered to the SpermClan. Travel was on their time, not ours. They had to notify DW a minimum of 60 days prior to any visitation they intended to take.
We did not just automatically give them their requested Summer start date. If we had plans, tough shit. They could have him starting on a day we stipulated when our plans were completed. Usually they demanded him less than 10 days prior to July 4 so we could not get him for the holiday. The Summer visitation CO gave my DW 10days with SS in SpermLand starting no earlier than 10 days after SpermClan visitation started. If DW took her 10 days, the remainder of the SpermClan's 5wks in the summer finished after DW's 10 days.
Since we lived under a long distance visitation schedule, they had to come get SS and transport him to SpermLand. Start time for their visitation was easy. It was the scheduled departure time for his flight to SpermLand. He had to be back in our possession at that time on the last day of their visitation. Each party was required to xport SS to their location.
We never played games with times and dates other than stipulating what day their Summer visitation would start. They played games regularly. Not putting him on the plane to return home, forgetting the day of his flights, arguing about what day their visitation actually ended though it was clearly stipulated in the CO. When they played games, we had either the police or sheriff knocking on their door to collect SS lights flashing in front of their house in front of their neighbors, or entering their church to collect SS, or collecting him at a SpermClan family dinner, etc....
We took the "If they are going to play stupid games, we will make sure they win stupid prizes" stance with their toxic crap. That DW's BFF's dad was first the Chief of Police then when he retired from the PD was elected County Sheriff, and the Chief/Sheriff hated the SpermIdiot was a huge advantage for us when the SpermClan got stupid.
Long distance visitation schedules are far easier to manage than the EOW or EOWE type local order. Far less opportunty for manipulation.
I recommend that your sister move outside of the stipulated radius for local visitation. If her baby daddy is that manipulative, it is better to limit his access to the kid to only a long distance schedule. Assuming your sister can get the usual custody advantage that most BMs get.
Here is our CO if it would be useful as a reference. We did have it modified to start the school visitation when SS turned 5yo since Kindergarten is mandatory in TX were we lived. They hated that because it cost them their fall visitation for ... EVER!!! Woo hoo. Only b because they never once took their COd fall visitation in our local. Also, DW and Spermidiot were never married. The standard CO form could not be changed, we tried.
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF (SPERMLAND)
FOR XXXX COUNTY
In the matter of the marriage of: Case No. F-xxxx
STATE OF (SPERMLAND), Ex Rel ORDER ON RESPONDENTS MOTION
TO MODIFY THE STIPULATED
MY DW JUDGEMENT OF PATERNITY
Petitioner,
Vs.
DICKHEAD,
Respondent
This matter having come before the Court upon Respondents’ Motion for Order to Show Cause for Modification of Stipulated Order of Paternity and Counter-Motions for Modification on the 3rd day of August, 1994; the Court having heard testimony of the parties, having reviewed the evidence and the file herein;
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED:
1. That at all times in which the petitioner and respondent live within 200miles of each other, respondent shall have visitation with his minor son, XYZ, date of birth XX/XX/XXX, pursuant to XXXX County Supplemental Rule 8.085.
2. That at all times which petitioner and respondent live more than 200 miles from each other, respondent will have visitation with his minor son, XYZ, as follows:
a. During 1994, respondent shall have visitation from September 25 through October 8 and from December 11 though December 22.
b. Beginning in 1995 and continuing through the summer of 1998, respondent will have visitation as follows:
(1) Two weeks in March.
(2) Four weeks in the summer. After two weeks of respondents visitation has passed, petitioner shall be entitled to up to ten days of visitation in the area where the respondent is residing. Respondent's four week visitation will be extended by the number of days which the petitioner has the child in the middle of the respondents four week summer visitation. For example, if after the respondent has had two weeks of summer visitation, petitioner visits with her son in the respondent’s area for six days, then after the child is returned to the respondent, he shall have two weeks remaining visitation. Respondents’ summer visitation shall not include the minor child's birthday on consecutive years.
(3) Two weeks in September or October
(4) December 11 through December 22.
(5) For seven days of respondents choosing, provided the seven days visitation is not within two weeks of any other visitation, and that the seven day visitation takes place in the child's area of residence.
c. For the period beginning on the date school starts in 1998 and continuing there after as follows:
(1) A five day weekend visit in September or October after September 15th in the area where the child resides so that the child may attend school during the day.
(2) On even numbered years, winter visitation beginning on the day school gets out until December 24; and on odd numbered years beginning on December 26, until the day before school starts.
(3) Every spring vacation pursuant to XXXX County Supplemental Rule 8.085.
(4) Five weeks in the summer; after two weeks of respondents summer visitation has passed, petitioner will have up to ten days of visitation in the area in which respondent is residing. Respondent’s five week summer visitation will be extended by the number of days which petitioner has the child in the middle respondent’s five-week summer visitation. Respondent’s summer visitation shall not include the child’s birthday on consecutive years.
d. Respondent shall inform petitioner in writing at least 60 days prior to any visitation he intends to exercise. The notice shall include the dates he intends to exercise visitation. Petitioner shall respond in writing to respondent within 15 days of receipt of notice as to whether or not she will exercise visitation in the middle of the respondent’s visitation, including the dates and number of days the intends to have the minor child.
e. Times for beginning and ending visits shall be flexible to accommodate transportation arrangements. Visits shall end after an amount of time less than or equal to the period provided in this order. Thus, for example, a visit from September 25 through October 8 is a visit for two weeks, and petitioner shall be entitled to the return of the child after 336 hours (24x14) has passed since the petitioner released the child to the care of the respondent. Said differently, petitioner shall be entitled to return of the child on the final day of the visit, at or before the time at which she released the child to the respondent’s care on the first day of the visitation.
Dated this _____ day of October, 1994
JUDGE ____________________