Mental illness or learned (and rewarded) behavior? (Sorry, it's long)
There's a situation with SS7 that came up last year, and it's starting to rear its ugly head again right now.
Here's how it started:
Last year, SS7 said one morning that he didn't want to go to school. He was at BM's house. BM lets them stay home for just about any reason, and they all three miss a LOT of school. It's like going to school is voluntary in her opinion, just something you do when there's nothing else going on.
SS7 told her one morning that he didn't want to go because he had a "tummyache." BM let him stay home.
SS7 said the next morning that he didn't want to go to school because his arm hurt. BM let him stay home again.
This went on for a full week. No actual sickness or anything as far as I know. He liked staying home, sitting on the couch with BM all day, eating junk food and watching TV instead of going to school.
Now, let me say that as far as everyone knows, nothing happened at school to cause him to want to avoid going. No bullying, no changes, NOTHING. BM, DH, and SS7's teachers all verified this. If anything was going on, NO ONE was aware of it, and SS7 has never said anything.
SS7 just decided one day that he wasn't going to school anymore and was going to stay home with BM every day, stuffing his face and lounging on the couch.
After the first week, BM and DH started trying to crack down on SS7, saying "Okay, look. You HAVE to go to school."
SS7 escalated his behavior and his complaints. He started sticking his finger down his throat to try to make himself throw up, and was successful several times. He started yelling and screaming as BM and/or DH literally tried to drag him to the bus stop. He bit DH on the arm, screaming "I am NOT GOING!"
DH and BM took him to a therapist. The therapist suggested that this was a learned behavior. He's rewarded with a fun, relaxing day at home with BM instead of having to go to school. BM and DH didn't really listen to anything the therapist had to say and only took him to see the therapist twice. DH and BM were convinced that something else was going on, like he had some sort of mental issue.
SS7 ended up missing more than 50 days of school last year with episodes like I described above, with DH and BM stepping up their efforts - even begging, bribing, and pleading - to try to get SS7 to go to school. SS7 ultimately had to be held back and repeat that grade because he missed so much school.
Everything came to a head one day last year one morning when BM was driving him to the bus stop. SS7 actually opened the car door at a stop light and jumped out of the car into traffic! BM had to get out and literally chase him down. He ran into the woods, screaming at the top of his lungs that he would NOT go to school, ever again! He screamed at BM, "You are NOT going to make me do anything! You CAN'T!"
Again, nothing bad was happening to him at school as far as I or anyone else knows. I really do think he decided that he just wasn't going to go anymore, and that was that. Nobody was going to make him do it.
After getting SS7 back in the car (she had to literally cram him in there, and then he refused to let her buckle him up), BM raced to the closest emergency room, screaming for help. SS7 was like a wild animal in the ER from what I heard - running around screaming, tearing his clothes off, throwing his shoes at people, saying he was going to kill himself if anybody made him do anything he didn't want to do. "I WILL NOT DO IT!" he screamed over and over again. They had to give him a shot to sedate him because he absolutely refused to calm down.
DH and BM ended up having SS7 committed to a mental institution, and he stayed there for about two weeks for observation. Someone there diagnosed him as being bipolar, though the psychiatrist he saw after he was back home said that that diagnosis was incorrect. The psychiatrist agreed with the therapist that had seen SS7 earlier in the year - that this is 100% learned and rewarded behavior. DH and BM still don't believe this, and they walk on eggshells around SS7, so scared that they're going to do or say something to "set him off."
Fast-forward to today. SS7 is now refusing to get out of BM's car in the mornings, and has started saying again that he doesn't want to keep going to school. She has to drag him out at the bus stop, and he refuses to go do anything outside, even on the weekends.
SS7 says it makes him want to kill himself if DH or BM won't let him do what he wants to do, and when DH or BM hear him say that, they immediately back off. In my opinion, he's found the magic phrase. The one thing he can say to get whatever he wants, when he wants it.
DH and BM refuse to see it. This kid is a world-class manipulator, and I'm afraid he's latched on to something else to force his parents to let him do, which is stay inside and not go outside, ever, for any reason - even to go to school.
BM is back to not forcing him to go to school when he has one of his fits. It's just going to go downhill from here.
DH and BM did make the decision to sign SS7 up for coach-pitch ball again this spring, and that starts soon. I'm not sure how they think that's going to work. SS7 is already having conniption fits over the mere suggestion that he'll be expected to go out there and play ball. He screams, pulls his hair out, and yells in DH's face every time DH even mentions him playing ball.
DH is worried that SS7 will have to be put on medication for his "mental issue."
In my mind, it's nothing more than a learned behavior, like the therapist and psychiatrist said. I've watched it first-hand, and I don't think that ANY of this is beyond his control. He knows exactly what he's doing, and he loves being in complete control of his parents.
Sorry for the long post. I'm just not looking forward to the next two months of baseball and the drama that's sure to come from that kid having to play. 
I hate it because they're
I hate it because they're being taught that all they have to do is come up with a lame-ass excuse, and they get out of going to school for the day.
How's that gonna work for them when they get a job? I'm sure that'll go over REALLY well with the boss.
BM doesn't care as long as she has somebody to hang out with while she watches her talk shows all day.
It's true that the skids have
It's true that the skids have an absolutely deplorable diet every other week at BM's. They live on chips, soda, and McDonald's. It's disgusting, and they're all three putting on weight at an alarming rate. I think BM wants to fatten them up to look like her, or something. Really, she can't be bothered to cook anything for them or even tell them "no" when it comes to eating junk food all hours of the day and night.
DH and I try hard not to feed them that way, but we obviously can't do anything about what BM decides to do. She's totally okay with the way she feeds them and sees no reason to change.
As far as I know, SS7 hasn't been bullied and nothing else negative was going on at school. DH and BM talked with SS7's teachers at length about this, to see if there was an issue at school that needed to be dealt with. No one could come up with anything. That's not to say that there wasn't an issue, but if there is, no one is aware of it, and SS7 has never said that there was an issue. If you were to ask him, he'd just say "I'm just not going to go anymore. I'm staying home with BM."
DH mentioned last night that he's really worried about SS7 because now he's refusing to go outside, for any reason, even if they're at the park. He'll just sit in BM's car and refuse to get out.
DH said, "I just feel so bad for him. He can't help it. When he has these fits, he's so out of control."
I looked at DH and asked him, "When SS7 has these fits, does he get what he wants?"
DH: "Um...What do you mean?"
Me: "When SS7 has one of these 'out of control' fits, does he eventually get what he wants?"
DH: "Well...I guess he does." (It's like he'd never even thought about that before.)
Me: "You might want to give that some thought."
I know it seems to DH and BM that SS7 is "totally out of control" and that he just "loses it," but I really don't think that's the case. I remember my ex husband being "out of control" when he got mad at me. He'd grab my things and smash them to the floor. Once he grabbed my cell phone and bashed it to pieces with a hammer.
He might have looked like he was "out of control" (implying there was nothing he could do to stop it), but I noticed something. When my ex was destroying things, he only picked up and destroyed MY things. Never his own.
I think these "out of control" fits of SS7's might be more controlled than DH and BM think. It gets him what he wants. Dr. Phil likes to ask people, "What's the payoff?" For SS7, it gets him exactly what he wants. So yeah, I DO think he's much more in control of these outbursts than DH and BM want to believe.
My friend's son is out of
My friend's son is out of control sometimes, well was. Nothing to this extreme. It was found it was his diet. Not only was it too much sugar, he also has a slight allergy to some carbohydrates & tomatoes or something. My friend didn't want to mediate, so she tried diet first. Changed her & his LIFE. He was only 4 at the time. It was like he could sit still for the first time ever! Amazing.
But with your SS? I think he needs an ass beating. He knows his parents are afraid of him & he's thriving off of it.
I'd think it was allergies or
I'd think it was allergies or some food sensitivity if it affected him more consistently. I'm not a doctor so I don't know for sure, and allergies can be strange things sometimes (I have trouble with allergies myself), but he was okay until DH and BM started talking to him about playing ball.
He's in the same grade this year, but with a different teacher and different classmates, and even a different classroom, and once again he's starting to refuse to go. BM hasn't been forcing him to go much, either, and he's once again missing day after day after day because he "had a fit".
Yes, he does know that DH and BM are afraid of him, and so worried about upsetting him, and in my opinion, he's milking it for all it's worth.
Yeah. BM is weak, your DH is
Yeah. BM is weak, your DH is weak - SS knows it & he's acting out because it works. At least that's how it seems.
^^^This is what I first
^^^This is what I first thought of when I read your post...does he pitch these fits at your house when he's eating healthier? But I also suspect it's a learned behaviour. He'll up the ante each time. BM has given into him and shows no accountability for her actions. But your DH has been too passive in accepting this. I really feel for you!
We live in a society where we are quick to medicate kids (albeit some do need it) without first exploring all possibilities. But if his parents refuse to accept these possibilities, this kid is doomed to a life of meltdowns, whether due to mental illness, allergies or just being a brat.
He doesn't pitch these fits
He doesn't pitch these fits at our house, not to the extent that he does at the bus stop or any other time he's with BM.
That's what makes me think it's not a diet/allergy/mental problem. He CAN control them.
But then, maybe he doesn't pitch those fits at our house because DH IMMEDIATELY gives him what he wants.
If we have something for dinner that SS7 doesn't want, SS7 just refuses to eat it, and DH gets up and makes him something else, so no "uncontrollable fit" is needed. It makes my blood boil, and I refuse to have anything to do with this bow-and-scrape behavior toward SS7, but it's ultimately DH's choice as to how he decides to deal with SS7's little diva-like demands.
DH said that he did have to literally drag him to the bus stop last year many times, and often he'd give in and take him to BM's to spend the day while DH was at work. This was before we got married, though, so I wasn't around to see it. I will still living in my own house, blissfully unaware of how bad this situation really was. God what an IDIOT I was to marry somebody with this kind of shit going on.
Why in the HELL would they
Why in the HELL would they sign the kid up for ANY extra-curriculars when he can't even handle the curriculars!??
Because as far as DH and BM
Because as far as DH and BM are concerned, "That's just what you do for your kids." You procreate, and then you sign them up for extracurricular shit, whether they want to participate or not.
Why? 'Cause it's FUN, dontchya know?
I think DH thinks I'm a slack parent because my kids weren't signed up for coach-pitch ball by the time they were toddlers. My kids have never expressed any interest, so no, I didn't sign them up. Why put them (and me) through that? I ask both of them every year if they want to play, and they always say no. They've watched the skids play, so they know what it's like, and they're just not interested.
My BS9 would rather run, or play soccer, or sit in the shade with a good book. And I'm okay with that.
Yeah, I don't get it either,
Yeah, I don't get it either, but you know, whatever. They're not my kids, so I don't care a whole lot. I still think it's a waste of time if the kid isn't interested, but okay.
My 9-year-old plays soccer outside with his friends in the after-school program almost every day and has said he wants to joint the track team next year (called KidTrack), and I'm totally okay with that. I told him I'd back him in whatever he wanted to do, and if he changed his mind, that's okay, too. It's called EXTRAcurricular for a reason. Do it if you want, but if you don't want to, that's all right. He's bright, active, healthy, and works hard in school, and that's enough for me.
Same thing here! You sure we
Same thing here! You sure we don't have the same BM and guilty daddy??
The BM got SD (now 15 1/2) labeled as "learning disabled" WAY back when and slapped her on meds. Although she gets all LOW Fs (crater grades) in EVERYTHING (including gym), she sees herself as "athletic" (read: oversized) and is enrolled in ALL the extra curriculars! All three have been failing and going to summer school for the past over 9 years--they don't hold them back here in NYS, just pass them up.
SD's "disabled" report says she can't focus for more than ten minutes at school; funny she can make Miley Cyrus style twerking videos for hours on end and post them on FB!! Oh yeah and all three skids and BM (and stepdaddy) have TERRIBLE diets!!
Oh trust me, I know there's
Oh trust me, I know there's nothing I can do about this situation. All I can do is stand back and watch the chaos unfold, and get worse.
I've decided that the first time I go to a practice or game and that kid has one of his meltdowns, I'm not going back to any more games or practices whatsoever where that kid will be. DH can go and fawn all over his precious little baby if he wants to, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste my Saturday afternoon on it. I'll just take my kids and go do something someplace else.
BM and DH are adamant that kids should be involved in a sport - ANY sport - every year, whether the kid wants to be or not. It's really weird. I grew up in a family where nobody was into sports, at all. They didn't watch sports, didn't care about sports. So this is all foreign to me.
I just don't get it.
But this kid is handling the ball thing the way he did school last year. He's decided that he doesn't want to do it, and that's the end of that as far as he's concerned. He's learned that if he does and says the right things (e.g., "This is making me want to KILL MYSELF!"), then DH and BM will eventually back off, APOLOGIZE to him for making him so upset, and he'll get his way.
God only knows what kind of ass he's going to be by the time he's a teenager, with these behaviors already firmly cemented in his head. They work, and they will continue to work as long as DH and BM allow them to work.
BM has already tried to talk DH into having SS7 put on lithium. DH has been against it up until now, but now that SS7 is acting out again, I'm afraid DH will give in. I sincerely hope he doesn't, but again, there's ultimately nothing I can do about it. And I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time on it, either.
If things get too bad, I'll just take my kids and hit the road. DH and I don't have any kids together, and certainly don't ever plan to (I make damn sure of that!), so it wouldn't be as complicated as it would be if we did have kids together.
Does bipolar illness run in
Does bipolar illness run in his family? Not that it has to, but if there is any chance at all that he could actually have this disorder, the lithium could possibly make all the difference.
I don't know of any other
I don't know of any other instances of mental illness on either side of his family, but there may be and I just don't know about it, but yeah, it's possible that it could pop up without anybody else having any problems.
Don't worry. BM will have him on drugs as soon as possible. She's already mentioned to DH that there's a possibility that she'll get a "crazy check" if one of the skids is diagnosed with "the right mental illness." That was a big red flag to me. DH didn't think anything of it. She's actually rooting for a diagnosis that'll net her a "crazy check." I don't know if bipolar would get it for her, but I'm sure she's looked into it.
OHHH MY....this is a
OHHH MY....this is a trainwreck just waiting to happen!!
I'm no expert and have no children of my own..but what I DO have is a lot of common sense. It doesn't take an idiot to get when a child is playing games in order to get out of going to school.
Being a step parent for a few years..I've seen it all between my two step kids. One will stay up all night on the internet and then fake being sick with a headache and Mom will call him in sick, while he sleeps in..lays on the couch all day in front of his laptop, etc. There are times he's told his dad that he wasn't really sick..just tired from again...staying up most of the night on his computer and was too tired to get up for school.
Did Dad say anything regarding discipline? Nope.
Both parents let it ride until he got a notice from school that he'd missed too many days.
Step daughter is 12. If her stomach hurts, Mom calls her in. She sleeps all day and plays on her phone, texting friends, her dad, etc. She missed so much school last year that they weren't going to pass her but stepdad went in..raised a ruckus..and they passed her.
We have a law in our State that says that a student has to have so many hours of classroom in order to graduate. Sometimes, in order to complete those hours, a student not only has to go to regular classes, they also have to make up what they missed online after school...or they don't graduate.
The biological mom and dad have NO idea what they're doing to their kids by letting them run all over them. I mean..who's the boss here??
See, this is what I'm talking
See, this is what I'm talking about regarding lazy parenting. Who allows their child to stay up all night on their phones or computers on a school night??? I mean, come on! And, if you can't control your kid with consequences, cut off the internet if you have to.
Please, don't have kids if you're not willing to put in the time. We don't need any more juvenile delinqents in this world!
Yes, common sense should prevail.
*Disclaimer* This ranting does not include children who have true mental illnesses.
Yep, SS7 has figured out that
Yep, SS7 has figured out that if DH or BM try to implement consequences for his outbursts, all he has to do is ramp it up a bit more, get even more "crazy," and they back down almost instantly on the consequence. ANYTHING to calm the baby down, you know?
He just screams over and over again that they're making him want to kill himself, and voila, the punishment vanishes into thin air.
I think this kid would definitely benefit from a school/camp for troubled or defiant kids, but no way in hell would DH or BM ever agree to it. They'd think it was too harsh for their delicate little flower to have to endure, and there's no way they'd go for it. I think it would do wonders for him, but I'm just the damn stepmom, so what the hell do I know?
You mentioned the kid who was being molested. I really hope that isn't happening to SS7. I suppose it's possible, but he's in a very structured IEP this year and isn't left alone with anyone, ever. BM drops him off at the bus stop every morning and picks him up right after school every day. He's never alone with anyone other than BM. Eesh...I hope SHE'S not doing anything to him. Ugh.
But I doubt it. I still believe he's just found something that works for him, and therefore he keeps doing it, to whatever degree is necessary to get what he wants.
Just one more thing since the
Just one more thing since the behavior seems to be strongly school related (jumping out of car on the way)...could he be dyslexic? I could imagine that would be extremely frustrating, making school very unpleasant and difficult to attend.
It's hard to think that this is all because of trying to get out of doing things, but I guess it's possible.
But why would that cause the
But why would that cause the same behavior in other situations, like being asked to go outside or play coach-pitch ball?
I don't think he's dyslexic. His brothers are - I hate to say it - much smarter than he is, but I've never seen anything that would suggest he has dyslexia. But I'm no expert, so I could be wrong about that. He loves to read and seems to enjoy school at least part of the time. He says he loves the teachers he has this year, and even enjoys the adults he works with in the IEP program.
Maybe he's not doing it to get out of doing things. I honestly don't know, but my gut tells me that he is.
If he loves to read then it's
If he loves to read then it's probably not dyslexia. I was trying to think of something that would actually cause him to act out soooo badly and I thought maybe it was extreme frustration. I guess ADD could cause that too, and may relate to some of the other situations.
I don't know, it just must be extremely overwhelming to have such a difficult kid!
Whatever the cause, it is
Whatever the cause, it is difficult, especially since I can't do anything other than offer (unwanted) suggestions on the matter. DH and BM are the only ones who can do anything about it, or getting treatment of some sort for him if he needs it.
It sucks, and I have to live with the fallout of it. All I can do is stay in the background and try not to let it affect my kids or me, to the extent that I can prevent it from causing problems.
I do worry about the future. If these behaviors continue, he's going to be absolutely UNBEARABLE when he's older.
For you and your kids' sake,
For you and your kids' sake, as well as your SS of course, I really hope he gets the help he needs. The whole situation is really sad, and I've seen the end results of kids who've been left by the wayside.
I really hope he gets the
I really hope he gets the help he needs, too, whatever that may be. As I said, there's nothing I can do about it. DH and BM need to get together and figure out what needs to be done for this kid and maybe actually LISTEN to what therapists and psychiatrists have to say about him, whether they like the diagnosis and/or advice or not.
It truly is sad, I agree. It's hard on everybody in the family, too, having to deal with this.
That's what most of us would
That's what most of us would do, LadyFace, but this kid's parents let this kid run the show. And what a horror show it is.
Yeah, DH and BM would never
Yeah, DH and BM would never do anything like that to their little snowflake. They truly believe he can't help it, and doing that to him would just be cruel and unusual punishment as far as they're concerned.
DH's thoughts on it would be something along the lines of, "Look ncgal, he's already suffering. Can't you see that? And now you expect me to do what? Take everything away from him? Doesn't he have ENOUGH to deal with?! That's unacceptable! We HAVE to understand how hard this is on him, and he Just.Can't.Help.It!"
I swear, if either of my kids had ever THOUGHT about trying any of this shit on me, I'd have knocked that out of them immediately and nipped that shit in the bud!
If this behavior is allowed
If this behavior is allowed to continue, yes, it's going to get MUCH worse in the future, and my kids and I will NOT be around to deal with it. We'll be long gone.
I'd hate to see this little brat end my marriage, but I'm not going to endure years and years of this shit.
"I'd hate to see this little
"I'd hate to see this little brat end my marriage, but I'm not going to endure years and years of this shit."
It would be your DH ruining it by letting him run the show. He needs to man up. Your ss has no responsibility to your marriage, your DH does however. & has a responsibility to his son to parent him. He's letting you both down.
Good point. I guess what I
Good point. I guess what I meant was that this constant bullshit caused by my SS7 AND his parents' reaction to it will ultimately end my marriage if things don't change.
I really wish DH and BM would think about what that counselor and psychiatrist said about this all being a LEARNED behavior. They refuse to even entertain the notion.
This is the EXACT situation
This is the EXACT situation we are in with SD13 and I truly believe it is learned.
She has missed 60+ days this year so far. Last year she missed so much school she was held back a grade.
In the beginning BM didn't make her go to school. Just like your SS she would say she was sick, her foot hurt, she had a sore throat, headache, stomach ache, you name it, she had it! Now, shes 13 and BM is realizing that this kid is about 3 years behind in her learning and is refusing to go to school.
It is exactly that, a learned and rewarded behavior. No you aren't paying the kid to stay home or bribing them with candy to stay home, but the mere fact that they get to stay home is their reward. SD is almost the same. She will refuse to get in the car, refuse to get out of bed. Some days BM drags her to the car but she refuses to get out at school.
BM takes her to various doctors for her fake illnesses and has tried psychologists and nothing works. She just wont go to school. SO and I are in the process right now of getting her into a support program for kids like her (she has other issues as well).
My advice is don't accept any kind of "diagnosis" from anyone. There is nothing mentally wrong with them. It is absolutely learned and for attention! SD just spent a week with her aunt because BM was away on vacation and she went to school every day because she knew she couldn't get away with it with her aunt. Very different story when its BM.
SS9 has tried some of these
SS9 has tried some of these tactics, too, but DH and BM don't put up with it from him. Well, BM occasionally does, but DH doesn't.
SS9 will wake up and say something like, "My, uh, stomach hurts. Or something. Yeah, my stomach hurts. I can't go to school today." DH just tells him to buck up and go get dressed.
It kinda sucks for my kids and the other two skids because they see how well it works for SS7, and they want to try it, too. I don't blame them. Why not?
SS9 even tried telling DH one time that DH expecting him to clean his room made him want to kill himself. I looked at DH and said, "Huh. Wonder where he got THAT from?" DH didn't appreciate me making light of SS7's oh-so-obvious mental illness that he just CAN'T help.
My kids know that they're expected to go to school and do their work unless they're legitimately sick. If they're truly sick, I don't have a problem with them staying home. But that shit that SS7 pulls? Oh hell no. HELL NO. I'd have put an abrupt stop to that immediately, before it spun out of control the way it has here.
SS7 has ramped up the behavior to such extremes now that I don't know that there's much DH and BM CAN do. He's willing to up the ante every single time, no matter how far he has to take it, and I don't know what they'd have the backbone to even do about it anymore. It doesn't bode well for the future - his or anyone else's.
My 4-year-old has started
My 4-year-old has started trying to push boundaries with me. If I tell him to do something he doesn't want to do, he'll say, "I'm not gonna LOVE you anymore if you tell me to do that!"
I just look at him, blank-faced, and say, "That's fine, you don't have to love me. I love you. But that doesn't change the fact that you're going to do what I tell you to do."
I don't get excited, or upset, and I don't lose my cool. My son always calms down and follows suit. He does what he's told, and that's the end of it.
You're right that the adults have to maintain composure, and DH and BM just can't bring themselves to do that. They get all emotional and wiggy when SS7 has his fits, and SS7 can see he's winning, so he just keeps it up until they give in and let him do whatever he wants. DH and BM have their heart in the right place, I think, but they're going about it all wrong in my opinion.
DH says I can't understand because I "don't know what it's like to have to raise a child with mental illness." Thing is, HE doesn't know what it's like, either! He just knows how to raise a kid who'll do whatever it takes to get what he wants.
I respond to my kids'
I respond to my kids' outbursts just like my mom responded to me. I was a quick-tempered little Tasmanian Devil as a kid and would blow up over stuff. My mom always stayed calm and answered me like I answered my 4-year-old.
If I got too out of line, she'd calmly tell me to go get a switch. After a good switching, you know what? I calmed down!
She never hurt me, but she let me know RIGHT AWAY what behaviors weren't going to be tolerated.
Oh, if only she'd been given a chance to raise SS7!
SS7's teachers have
SS7's teachers have complained that SS7 has these fits whenever they ask him to do stuff that he doesn't want to do, too. He's okay as long as the adults (at home or at school) aren't forcing him to do things he doesn't want to do - no fits or outbursts of any kind. But the second anybody even suggests that he has to do something he doesn't want to do, WHAM! Screaming and crying and threatening to kill himself!
Hey, what can I say? It works. As soon as he realizes he's going to get his way, the fit INSTANTLY stops, and he's all smiles again.
Who wouldn't rather stay home
Who wouldn't rather stay home on the couch watching tv and stuffing their face? (Bon Bon's anyone?) - okay, except maybe those who want to be productive members of society.
But seriously, BM has set a bad precedent and dad has perpetuated it. (From what I gather so far.)
Because of this boy's irrational behavior, it may be situational (learned), coupled with an inability to handle his emotions. If he was/is an entitled child, he may not have been taught how to deal with disappointment and not getting what he wants, hence the irrational behavior. But this is kinda a 'duh' thing. Most of us already know about the coddling a lot of these kids receive, and the outcomes from it.
Also, like others have mentioned, the irrational behavior could stem from diet, lack of sleep, negative treatment from other kids, etc.
How long has he been in therapy? I think far too many kids these days are given a diagnosis before being adequately evaluated. Did his therapist even mention any other possible factors besides learned behavior? Maybe play therapy could help to bring some issues to light?
He went to see one counselor
He went to see one counselor twice. That counselor said that as far as he could tell from his limited dealings with the kid, there was nothing wrong with him beyond learned behavior that could be corrected. Once he said that, BM decided that he didn't need to go back to see that therapist anymore.
After his 2-week stint in the psychiatric hospital, an independent psychiatrist said the diagnosis of bipolar disorder that he got at the hospital was incorrect, and he also agreed that it was all learned behavior.
As far as I know, that's all the "counseling" the boy has had up to this point. BM took SS7 to that independent psychiatrist three or four times, and as soon as he said SS7 wasn't bipolar, BM all of a sudden decided SS7 didn't need to go there anymore, and hasn't taken him anywhere else since.
That's exactly how some of
That's exactly how some of these kids get a label slapped on them. They are rushed through the system.
The parents definitely need to have him in therapy for an extended amount of time or he'll never improve or get the correct help he so desperately needs.
It just gets better and
It just gets better and better. I just posted this in another thread about the issue with the skids playing ball this spring, and thought I'd share it here, too:
DH just sent me an email to say that he and BM have decided that they're not going to make SS7 play ball this year. SS7 apparently had a fit at school over it and threw a chair at another kid this morning, and he started screaming that he's going to run away from home if anybody makes him play ball this year.
DH and BM are headed to the school right now. SS7 is sitting in the principal's office with the school guidance counselor over this. DH said he thinks another kid got hurt when SS7 threw the chair.
Score yet another one for SS7. I guarantee there'll be no punishment for SS7. Hell, if anything, I bet BM will take him home for the rest of the day, or take him out for ice cream to calm the baby down. She's done it before. One time he had a fit in school, she had to take him home for the rest of the day, and they went skating! Niiiice.
So yeah, for SS7, now I guess ball isn't an issue anymore. WOW. JUST WOW. He won. Again.
Well now I'm really beginning
Well now I'm really beginning to think there is something organic going on...he's just out of control. Good lord I hope they get him the help he needs, whether it be behavioral therapy or meds.!
Oh, that's horrible, but I
:jawdrop: Oh, that's horrible, but I have to admit that I laughed. }:)
I did, too! Either that or a
I did, too!
Either that or a cattleprod.
A cattleprod might get the
A cattleprod might get the parents' butts moving before they're branded as bad ones for the rest of their lives!! :O
I still don't think it's
I still don't think it's anything organic. That kid is first-rate PISSED OFF that he's being told he has to play ball whether he likes it or not, and by God he let his classmates and his teacher know it this morning.
Latest report - BM and DH told SS7 that they've decided now that he doesn't have to play ball, and SS7 was "SOOOO HAPPY" to hear that. SS7 apparently told the principal, counselor, BM, and DH that he was sorry he threw the chair, but that he only did it because he was "feeling sad" because his mommy and daddy were making him do something he didn't want to do. BM took SS7 when they left the school, and DH went back to work. DH said BM told him she was going to "have a good long talk" with SS7 about what he did. Yeah, I bet she will. Over a nice big banana split at the skating rink, I bet. Stupid idiots are going to fuck this child up for life.
There was no mention of any punishment or consequences whatsoever for what SS7 did this morning. NONE.
Unbelievable. If this kid
Unbelievable. If this kid doesn't get consequences then it's the parents that need serious therapy.
I forget, when you say 'play ball', are you referring to baseball? Why would they make him play if he didn't want to?
DH and BM's attitude is that
DH and BM's attitude is that if you have kids, then they MUST be involved in an organized sport, whether they want to be or not. It wasn't even up for discussion until yesterday when SS7 threw that chair and got sent to the principal's office. Then because SS7 had his fit, he got out of it.
Yeah, I'm sure he'll never use THAT tactic again in the future if he's not getting his way.
I'm glad you're staying out
I'm glad you're staying out of it. Making a suggestion and shutting up. Right on the money.
The kid will end up being one of those people who stay inside all the time probably living with Mama who will be glad for the company and she will feed and clothe him. He might end up on one of those 600 pound shows where people have to get their stomach tied so they can't eat much at one sitting. Of course his life span will be short and he'll be on welfare meanwhile.
No one will know for sure if its learned behavior until the parents stop giving in. But jeeze can the school be expected to take him in and watch him rip his clothing off while throwing chairs out of windows and at other kids? obviously not. Personally I would beat his butt until he "voluntarily" agreed to go and if he acted up at school I'd lead him out to the car and do it again until he "voluntarily" agreed to return and not act up. Repeating as needed.
At this point I think he needs to be in a structured environment. The parents should take the kid to Child Protective Services and tell them he is out of control and they're abandoning him to their custody. They'll be threatened with child abandonment of course and I don't think they'll be able to stand up to that.
So in the end the kid will continue as he is. Eventually the authorities will consider him truant I believe and that might be a avenue by which the kid gets help. Meanwhile you stand aside as you've been doing and watch the clowns at work. Just don't applaud.
I really don't understand the
I really don't understand the school's "oh well, he didn't mean it" attitude with this kid. Even after his repeated outbursts at school last year (though none were as bad as what he did this morning), the school did NOTHING about it. No consequences whatsoever. They just sat down and had a huggy-squishy talk with BM and DH, and that was it.
He's in a pretty structured IEP this year. This happened when he first got to school this morning and was in the regular classroom. He's in there for part of the morning, then goes off for individual stuff in the afternoon. Or something. I don't know his schedule in detail.
So his life, as far as I can tell, is quite structured this year. The problem is, he's got two parents who let him get away with this shit over and over again. THAT part of his life is as loosey-goosey as ever. And therein lies the problem.
I so MISS the good ol' days
I so MISS the good ol' days of butt whoopin's!!! That usually cleared problematic behaviour up post haste!
And even in a family of say 4
And even in a family of say 4 it would only take one or two a year unless you had a real rebel because just the threat was often enough.
I know it was enough when I
I know it was enough when I was a kid. I knew how far I could push my mom, and it was a LOT farther than I could push my dad.
My dad wasn't a big fan of "Just sit down and TALK to your child so they can understand how their behavior is NOT okay!"
No. He'd just walk up...WHACK! "Don't."
And that was it.
I got the message pretty damn fast and straightened up!
Too bad the gov't agencies
Too bad the gov't agencies such as the CPS dept. that the BM IN MY CASE WORKS FOR has equated all correction with "abuse."
Nothing but ferals as far as the eye can see!
dup. stupid surface
dup. stupid surface keyboard!
A lesson I learned really
A lesson I learned really really fast: If your dad's ex-military, DO NOT SCREW WITH HIM!
Well Mr. guilty daddy is
Well Mr. guilty daddy is ex-army and he was Mr. Softy with his three budding thugs. I just found out that my older cat was shot in the lower back with a bb gun by SD when she was still coming to entitlement lessons--at the time 9 yrs old, errrr I mean visitation. YSS--at the time stb 7-- literally defecated all over my house on purpose when he didn't get his way--the next day, daddykins was rewarding him with toys again. The oldest one was just plain goofy and annoying but not half as bad as the younger two. And OSS just got thrown out of a DRUGGIE relative's house for too much CHOOMING! All three continue to fail school--I saw OSS's senior prom photo--glassy eyed and drugged out!
Holy crap!! What a mess. I
Holy crap!! What a mess. I don't know how you stand it, but now I understand your picture. Every time I see it I want to go wipe down any surface that SD had her grubby little hands on!
As far as kitty, it would have taken everything in my being not to have strangled that kid!!!!!!!!
I just found out about older
I just found out about older kitty. Took her to the vets for consistent vomiting; she was xrayed and there the xray showed a bb just at the base of her tail! She never strays off my property. I clearly remember SD with her bb gun shooting at everything that moved. Shooting toads through the eyes. . .you name it.
I can only describe his kids as mean, callous, cruel, vicious and sociopathic. The younger two I caught kicking, shoving and pinching my older kitty. Younger kitty would dive under my bed and stay there all day until the heathens were asleep--then and only then would he come out to et and drink.
All I can say is...those
All I can say is...those little fuckers!!
Oh my God, I would be SO done
Oh my God, I would be SO done with those little shits after that. It'd be the disengagement from HELL! I wouldn't even so much as LOOK at them again, ever!
And you'd damn well better believe DH would get an earful AND pay for whatever my kitty needed. I'd take it out of the skids' piggy banks if at all possible!
That is BEYOND unacceptable!
Those kids would see a side of ncgal they'd NEVER seen before if they even so much as THOUGHT about getting near my pets again after that. I'd make sure they never did, and if DH had a problem with it, too bad. DH would need to see that his kids are little psychos who are headed for a world of shit if they don't stop their behavior. Shooting toads through the eyes? Sweet Jesus that's sick.
Read some of my previous
Read some of my previous posts. My SS8 used to do this sort of thing all the time. He still pulls it on DH and BM at times. He has learned that I won't put up with it. Doesn't throw fits with me at all. It's learned. He may not understand why he is doing it but it is learned because it gets attention. Negative attention is still attention.
You know what? SS7 has NEVER
You know what? SS7 has NEVER thrown a fit with me. NEVER. The one time I had to prepare dinner for the skids (DH was working late), SS7 said he didn't like the meatloaf I made. He started scrunching up his face to start an all-out tantrum, and I used my command voice to tell him, "NO. That won't be happening. You can eat it, or you can leave it on your plate. It's up to you. Those are your ONLY two options."
The little fit he normally has? The one DH and BM think is so "uncontrollable"? It got stopped dead in its tracks. Nobody speaks to SS7 that way, and it shocked the hell out of him. You could plainly see that on his face. That little tantrum died instantly. He shut up and ate his meatloaf, not saying another word about it.
I didn't yell or scream or get upset. I just let him know that I wasn't joking around, and there was NO gray area with me. Eat it or don't eat it, ncgal doesn't give a shit and will NOT be preparing an additional meal for anybody's ungrateful, spoiled ass.
That was the first and LAST time that kid ever even thought about trying that shit with me. Case closed.
Theres a HUGE difference
Theres a HUGE difference between throwing a tantrum for not getting his way to screaming from the car in order to not go to school!!
And he was brought to a mental institution? ?
This is disturbing!
How many times have kids been molested or bullied by priests?
Of course the school will say its fine!! And how are you going to prove hes not being bullied? Unless you put a hidden camera at the school, you wont know!!! Tantrums like these were handled poorly.
A mental institution for a 7 year old? And now a dr diagnosing Bi polar?
Correct me if im wrong but isnt a 7 year old a first grader?
Theres more to his tantrums than wanting to sit on the couch!
If they are resorting to mental institution for this reason, the parents need their head examined!!
Unbelievable
DH and BM had SS7 voluntarily
DH and BM had SS7 voluntarily committed for two weeks. I don't know what the procedure is for that, but they did it voluntarily. Nobody forced them to do it.
SS7 talked at length about how much he hated being there. The thing he said he hated the most was that there were "all these rules" and everybody kept telling him what to do. He said he never wanted to go back there, and poof, just like that, all that bad behavior went away for a good long while. It started again full-blast, though, when he thought he was going to have to play ball this spring.
Wait and see. My bet is that now that he had the incident with the chair-throwing at school yesterday, and then DH and BM immediately told him they weren't going to make him play ball because of his outburst, he'll be just fine again for a while. No outbursts, no threats of suicide, no screaming fits, nothing...Until something ELSE comes up that he doesn't want to do.
He screams and has a fit, then he's rewarded. I'm no expert, but it doesn't take much else to make me see the basic formula here. Outburst = reward. So guess what behavior will rear its ugly head again when SS7 doesn't get his way?
This is not just learned
This is not just learned behavior; there is something more going on. It's NOT "normal." He may be learning how to get his way, but this is to an extreme. Why hasn't either therapist given the parents behavior modification techniques? They need to go back and get some tools in how to handle him. The only other kid I know that threw a chair in school was on meds and hadn't taken them that day. I don't condone meds except in extreme cases, but no one will know how much can be improved until they try different techniques. He's only 7 for crying out loud!
He may be "only 7," but I
He may be "only 7," but I don't think that means much. Seven-year-olds are smart enough to figure out what works for them. Does that mean his behavior truly isn't beyond his control? Maybe not. I'm not qualified to make that call.
You're right that this behavior is not normal. I've never seen a kid like this in my life. But then again, I've never seen parents bend over backwards so completely to make sure the kid doesn't get upset. They'll beg, plead, bribe, whatever they have to do to make the meltdown stop. And you know what? The INSTANT SS7 gets what he was screaming for, he's all smiles again. No more violent behavior, no more threats of suicide, nothing. It's like watching a toddler scream for a lollipop in the grocery store. The second they get what they want, the tantrum stops, but not until then.
BM stopped taking SS7 to the therapist AND the psychiatrist once those folks said SS7's behavior is the result of learning what works for him, and being rewarded (with lots of attention, going on special trips, etc.) for those behaviors.
BM said she's trying to find another therapist for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if she suddenly yanked him out of therapy again if the new therapist says he doesn't have a mental condition. Which hey, maybe he does. I'm no expert and certainly can't say.
All I know is that he does seem to be able to control it, depending on who he's with. Most of these outlandish behaviors occur when BM is around. The one yesterday morning happened at school, true, but most of them seem to happen when he's with BM. He's lashed out at DH a few times, but never with anyone else.
Maybe it's a coincidence, but I was able to shut down a meltdown from him just by being firm and letting him know that I was NOT going to tolerate it. He wanted to have a conniption fit over the fact that I made meatloaf one night when DH wasn't there. I stopped that incident dead in its tracks by standing up to him, which is something DH and BM NEVER do because they're scared of how he'll react if they're strict with him. So to tell me he absolutely CANNOT control these outbursts? Nope, not from my experience. He certainly can.
"only 7?" I was expected to
"only 7?" I was expected to fully behave and knew who was in charge WELL before the age of 4.
Damn straight! Me too!
Damn straight! Me too!
Oh, nice. BM called DH early
Oh, nice. BM called DH early this morning to give him an update on the situation. The other two skids are with us this week, but BM asked if she could please keep SS7 last night to help "calm him down." She said she had a "good long talk" with SS7 yesterday afternoon after she left the school with him about his behavior. Then she said he told her he couldn't help it. BM said she felt bad about the whole incident and took him to Toys R Us and let him pick out a new Transformer.
You can't make this shit up!
(No subject)
:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:
A friend of mine has a skid
A friend of mine has a skid with oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). Your skid sounds a lot like her skid. He does NOT like being told what to do. If his parents don't get this under control, I am afraid of what he will look like at 16. Sounds like your DH could benefit from some sort of parenting education. BM too, but good luck with that. Something basic would do...... bad behavior = punishment not reward. Even the Dog Whisperer would preach that!Seriously???? Meanwhile you get to live with the consequences of his behavior :O
"ODD" LOL! Used to be called
"ODD" LOL! Used to be called a "tan-trum" and a few swift swats cured it immediately with no dangerous mind-bending, health endangering meds.
LOL- My British cousin always
LOL- My British cousin always tells me "we don't have syndroms in the UK, we have naughty children". Yep- probably the case.
I still think the Dog Whisperer could help.
A-FRIGGIN-MEN!!!!!!!! *******
A-FRIGGIN-MEN!!!!!!!!
*******STANDING OVATION****CHEERING******RAUCOUS APPLAUSE********
This just seems insanely
This just seems insanely extreme. Abuse somewhere, maybe? IDK.
^Exactly! (For at least 99%
^Exactly! (For at least 99% of the cases anyway, lol.)
Sounds to me like he is just
Sounds to me like he is just spoiled like crazy and has learned that this behavior is what gets him attention and gets him what he wants. It is a bit extreme.... perhaps this is where a personality disorder might come into play as well. JMHO
All these terms psychiatrists
All these terms psychiatrists have come up with are only to pad the pockets of the drug companies!!!
Growing up if a child was active you put him in sports!
If a child was a daydreamer you figured out that maybe they were extremely on the creative side!
If a child was unruly and defiant, you taught him/her what consequences mean!
The only think these psychiatrists should have padded the drug companies pockets with is..
OCDBMD
means
Obsessive, controlling, defiant, Biological Mother Disorder!!
Swallow a pill for that!!!!
He's not on any medications
He's not on any medications as far as I know, but now BM is really screaming that the kid needs lithium. LOTS of lithium. Oh, and she's now diagnosed him with ADHD. I had no idea she was a physician capable of giving him blood tests and all the other legitimate screening procedures required to make such a diagnosis. Apparently she thinks he is.
BM said that SS7's chair-throwing episode was all the evidence she needed that these behaviors are beyond his control, and that he needs medication IMMEDIATELY. No therapy, no structure, no consequences, just DRUGS!
I'm afraid DH won't have the backbone to stand up to her. He doesn't agree, but he's not willing to fight it (or so it seems) because he's scared to death that she'll take him back to court to try to get custody of the kids.
I just can't get past the fact that he INSTANTLY calmed down and stopped throwing his fit as soon as BM and DH told him he wouldn't have to play ball this spring. THEN BM rewards his fit by taking him to Toys R Us afterwards! SMDH :jawdrop: