Skid update (I need advice) & June 2nd big deals for the Rags's
First, the good news.
June 2. A big day for my family.
Today is mom and dad's 62nd anniversary. My niece and her DH blew the doors off the anniversary gift for mom and dad, the first GGK was born this AM. 8lb 9oz baby girl. How that came out of my tiny little size 2 niece is mind boggling. Anyway. Only the second baby girl in the Rags clan... ever. Her mama was the first. My heart is warmed that mom and dad have made it to 62 years of marriage healthily, happy, together, and that my niece and the baby are healthy.
A wonderful day for my family on many levels.
Now for my heartache. We called the SKid today. He answered. That nearly never happens. I have been holding off on updating on my son for a while. He has been struggling with some mental health issues for a while. He is seeing a Psychologist (I'm not a fan of this one as their seems to be no discernable benefit developing), a Psychiatrist, and a Neurologist. SS has been going through a bunch of brain scans, tests, etc... No definative Dx so far though he was Dx'd a couple of yeas ago with ADHD.
He has always had hermit level extreme introvert and detatchment from real life tendencies. Obvioiusly that is my opinion and not any official thing.
This is the first time ever, that he sounded depressed to the level of debilitating paralysis in living life. His mom and I were instandly shocked at his voice when he answered. This scares the crap out of me. In the interest of keeping what could be a dozen page post as short as possible, here are the basics.
1. He has been struggling with memory issues for about 6mos. Basically he cannot remember anything in his non work life. He has systemized his process for work and has avoiced work issues. This sounds like a major depression related thing to me. Hopefully we will get some answers from the Neurological tests and ongoing engagement with the three members of his mental health team.
2. He had some problems with tardiness at work. Apparently that has been resolved and he is doing well though not nearly to his provel level of work performance. I'm worried that his remaining USAF career years may be in jeopardy. Less than 7 years to full retirement. If he can't make that, I am hoping for an early medical retirement. Though that would be very hard for him to process.
3. He basically has zero life except for work, his cat, and gaming. Nothing else. Since returning from 5yrs in Europe (approaching 2yrs ago), he has basically had zero social interaction outside of work and his cat. He does have some online "friends" but all of their interface is via buying someone elses immagination and navigating that.
So, I am about tongueless biting my tongue and not telling him to pull his head out of his ass, stop making excuses, and start doing something to directly address the issues. If you have no life, make a life. If all you do is sit in your appartment, pet your kitty and kill Orks with your online not IRL buddies, then get your ass off of the computer, kick the cat off of your lap, and GTF out into the world.
He loves working out but won't go to the gym. GO TO THE F-ing GYM kid.
He feels better when he talks with people. THEN TALK TO PEOPLE DUMBASS! Actual people IRL. Not your stunted real life avoidant gaming buddies.
He has won a number of awards for leading community and charity initiatives in his past commands. GET OFF YOUR ASS and do that.
For two hours we listened to long silent pauses (he was obviously gaming) and blather fests on how he understands that outside is real from a ligical perpective but it doesn FEEEEELLLLL real. WTF? It doesn't feel real kid. Because you go to the ends of the universe to avoid life. Life is real but only if you actually live it. If you don't, that is entirely on you. So pull your head out of your ass and live.
I finally did play the feelings are not decisioning tools and they are not actions parenting card. Gently , calmly, but while putting the onus on him to own his life and actually live it. Take action son, the feels will change and it will all actually become real for you.
I got a number of looks from his mom during our conversation with the kid. We spent a few hours reviewing and discussing the conversation with our kid after we finished the call.
This scares the absolute shit out of me. He is going to screw up a very successful and promising life if he does not pull his head out of his ass and actual live life instead of avoiding it.
He is our kid. We will have his back. However, that will come in very structured form requiring performance. He can come home if it comes to that. But.. not with his cat. Cats kill my respiratory system and I just can't have them in my home. That... will keep him from coming home even if he really does not have any other choice. He will choose the cat over home. We may end up having to buy a home and put a granny pod in the backyard for our mentally ill kid. If this had cropped up 5 years ago, no problem. Now, if it happens, it will end any chance of us having a compfortable and adventurous retirement.
He is not a toxic person. He is not an asshole. He is not disrespectful. He is not manipulative. He is not entitled. If he was, I would not be struggling to confront his issues.fds
Oh how I hope for 6 years 10mos and 2 more weeks of USAF service for him. Then, at least he will have a full retiremen/pension, lifetime medical, and some level of self determination. If he gets fired, we will not allow him to be homeless, but.. he will be our live in beck and call chore boy with zero electronic access to anything, ever.
DW expressed how my discounting of feelings and focusing on action made her feel unsupported while she was going through her career/anxiety crisis last year. That she felt she was doing the work to fix it and I would express frustration that focusing on the feelings was not addressing the problem. Which for DW, IMHO, was a toxic work environment. She was wallowing in the feels and the what if's and was killing herself. Literally. Anxiety, heart problems, shingles, etc.... I was not the only one trying to get her to take actual direct problem resolution action. Everyone was. Friends, family, our son, therapists even told her that they were not supposed to engage with giving a direct action recommendation. QUIT THE FUCKING PLACE! (My venting words now anyone actually said it at the time. Including me.) Now we are in a very similar place with our kid. Lots of feels, lots of paralysis, no action.
Patient: "Doc, it hurts when I do this."
Doc: "Don't do that."
Or in the case of my bride and our son, If something isn't working, do something else.. But do something. Actually something. Yes, get help, see therapists, shrinks, and neurologists. But they will not drag you out of your house, resign you from your job, etc.
So, if the feels are unpleasant, take action that creats the feelings that benefit you. Action builds feelings.
Steven R. Covey gave me an incredible epiphany in his book The 7 Habbits of Highly Effective People. The excerpt that resonated with me is below. I have found the basic methodolgy to be extremely effective in any change initiative. If the current result isn't acceptable, do something to change it. In lifem, the action builds the feels. Feels do not just happen. They are the result of somethign that the individual is doing, or not doing. IMHO of course.
“My wife and I just don't have the same feelings for each other we used to have. I guess I just don't love her anymore and she doesn't love me. What can i do?"
"The feeling isn't there anymore?" I asked.
"That's right," he reaffirmed. "And we have three children we're really concerned about. What do you suggest?"
"love her," I replied.
"I told you, the feeling just isn't there anymore."
"Love her."
"You don't understand. the feeling of love just isn't there."
"Then love her. If the feeling isn't there, that's a good reason to love her."
"But how do you love when you don't love?"
"My friend , love is a verb. Love - the feeling - is a fruit of love, the verb. So love her. Serve her. Sacrifice. Listen to her. Empathize. Appreciate. Affirm her. Are you willing to do that?”
― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change
Feelings are not change elements. Feelings are improved by change actions.
He has always had hermit extreme introvert and detatchment from real life tendencies. Obvioiusly that is my opinion and not any official thing.
Where do I stop parenting or partnering and just care?
I do care. Very much. I also feel helpless to fix it, or even help. My advice seems to cause pain and anxiety. Though if they would actually do something to fix it, my advice, help, and support would be diferent.
When people I love do not love themselves enough to fix their shit, it guts me.
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Comments
Any chance of a new therapist
Any chance of a new therapist/paychologist? I agree that it sounds like depression. I don't think it's good for some people's mental health to hermit themselves away and never interact with people IRL. Isolation can breed depression and anxiety. I hate to say it but what he probably needs is a connection outside of his gaming. Any interest in dating? If he's in his 30s his peers are likely starting to settle down and have families. While it's perfectly fine to remain single your whole life, you do have to have the right frame of mind for it (ie. you don't get lonely). Friends can be hard to come by and keep at his age because people are preoccupied with growing a family. That's not to say he can't do it. But, he is going to have to put himself out there if he wants a connection, be it friendship or otherwise.
I would recommend to your
I would recommend to your wife, his mother, make a list of his family tree on both sides and see if there is any mental illness in his DNA. Some are highly genetic, for example Bipolar. You've painted a very horrible picture of his sperm donor's family. As much as he is your son, he has different DNA than you. Facts.
You can't fix this one. That will frustrate the hell out of you. I get that. So what role can you play? A solid rock for these two very much loved people to rely on.
Memory loss, isolation,
Memory loss, isolation, retreating from enjoyable activities: all signs of depression. Is he taking a prescribed antidepressant? He may need something different or a combination of medications.
DW expressed how my discounting of feelings and focusing on action made her feel unsupported...
It sounds like mother and son might be two peas in a pod regarding their feelings toward your approach. What did your DW need to feel supported? Maybe the two of you can discuss things you can say that make son feel supported and not a... call to action. My apologies if that is a poor choice of words. I suffered from depression so severe after leaving my psycho exh that the only thing that kept me employed was that I had to get out of bed to let my darling Mr P (dog) out and feed him. I figured since I was up (heavy sign and dragging feet), I'd go to work. If I'd've had a cat, I would have lost my job.
Prayers your son gets the help he needs to reignite his spark.
This sounds like depression
This sounds like depression to me, too (except for the memory loss) which, luckily, is treatable. Is he on medication? When you're deeply depressed, it can feel and be impossible to act....or act in a big way. How far is he from you all? Can you easily get to him? At this point, it sounds like a "Let's get through the next day" thing vs retirement worries (although I get that this is a big deal).
And congrats to your parents and congrats on the new family member!
The roller coaster of life
It is so painful to watch our loved ones make poor decisions, or no decisions when they should be making them, like your son. I feel your pain, especially since you are such an action guy. It is the toughest thing parents do, watch this.
I want to think my actions and beliefs shape my kids and they do, somewhat. But it seems the older they get, the more they revert to their real selves, I guess we all do.
You're on the roller coaster of life, Rags, so hold on
Thanks everyone for the input
Thanks everyone for the input and advice. I need as much as I can get. I hold, and comfort. Until the recycling hits the Nth iteration and I take the step of pushing for them to actually address solutions. I need to learn to bite my tongue and just support and comfort... without indicating my frustration.
Phew. Even after a long period of hugs and comfort "So, how is this working out for you and what are you actually going to do now to fix it?" seems to erase the countless cycles of comfort, etc......
My poker face is nonexistant when I get to the last recycle point and make the shift to solution from support. Not that those are mutually exclusive. It just moves people through a comfort barrier, apparently. My tolerance for the status quo when it is an untennable embrace of misery is far less for others than it is for themselves.
Yeah I mean at some point,
Yeah I mean at some point, you have to stop (whining? Is that the right word?) about your problems and find a solution. If you're not happy in your life, you gotta change it. If that means new meds, new therapist, new hobbies, new you etc., then you just gotta get to the point where the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. Sometimes people have to realize that on their own too and it can take some time - they may spend some time spinning their wheels before finally motivating themselves to get off their butt.
The most concerning thing is his job, I agree. I think it needs to be said (to him) that he could lose a lot by not sticking out the last few years. You can't retire early like that anywhere else. You can't get free healthcare anywhere else. I think he'd regret it forever if he didn't hang in there and get his retirement (and I would tell him so too).
He doesn't wanna be on the millennial retirement plan, where we're all gonna be requesting time off to attend our own funeral.
He won't quit before
He won't quit before retirement. My fear is that they will not retain him. Though they may. My last job my #2 was a retired USAF E-8 who is on the spectrum, made 20+ years and has his line number for E9 but decided to retire rather than commit to 4 more years in Clovis NM which is not a choice base assignment. So, he retired. He was a hand full. Volatile as could be, confrontational, high drama, etc... How he stayed in as long as he did getting to the level he did gives me hope that my kid may just make it to 20.
Knock on wood.
I am speaking from the
I am speaking from the viewpoint of someone who has suffered major depression and other mental health problems. I think that your son is "doing something to directly address the issues" by seeing numerous professionals about his condition. When I was in the pit, what helped most was friends and family who would just listen, and not judge me, or suggest solutions. What hindered the most was people saying something like "if you would just do x,y,z everything will come good". I would suggest you read "Climbing out of Depression" by Sue Atkinson - and maybe buy your son a copy.
Your son's depression may last a short or a long time, but often it is caused by deep anger being turned inwards. If he needs to leave the USAF, so be it. His life is more important than a job. Depression can kill. Your scorn of feelings will be coming across to him loud and clear. He is still working and doing the best he can - this is worth the highest praise, not telling him he's doing it all wrong.
Many years ago, my ex looked
Many years ago, my ex looked at me one morning when I was crying and said to me, "You better buck up." I was very depressed following my father's death. Yes, I still remember those words. Those were the words that propelled me out of that relationship.
Socialization seems to be a
Socialization seems to be a muscle that needs exercising. I think people who tended towards being introverts leaned into it further during the years of covid restrictions.. less in office time.. less in person interraction.. and I even find myself a lot less interested in participating in larger group activities. (we had a local throw down this past weekend.. a couple wanted us to go with them.. we even bought tickets at their pushing.. but I refused to go.. too many people.. didn't just want to drink all day and get nothing done... they found out I'm also stubborn.. haha)
It sounds like he needs a bit of a game plan.... some exercises that he can do daily to get out of his shell and comfort zone.. at least a little bit to start.
I mean.. it might be as simple as "smile at 5 strangers today". "Say hello to three new people today" Then it might work up to looking for moderate sized meeting groups in things that might interest him ... maybe even volunteer at an animal shelter.. the animals need the humans.. and he would get some peripheral human contact.. maybe even make connections?
The problem is that he is kind of in that cycle of a body in motion stays in motion.. a body at rest stays at rest.. he can't get out of his own way mentally to get out there and get into life.
What about a vacation.. a cruise or something that might shake up his routine?
I don't know.. I'm a bit like you rags.. and would be so tempted to say.. well .. how are you going to have a life if you never leave your 4 walls?
but.. depression is difficult.. and I even suffer from it.. and it's like being on the verge of tears and you don't even know why.. it's not wanting to participate and deal with other people judging you..thinking you are weird.
I would also suggest looking for another therapist.. if he doesn't get much more traction with this one.
Wish I Had More To Add
You've gotten some great input. I also think depression is a major concern. Praying for your son. And yes...he needs a new therapist, one who can give techniques for your son to implement and then the therapist follows up on. Best to you and your son, Rags.
Patient: "Doc, it hurts when
Patient: "Doc, it hurts when I do this."
Doc: "Don't do that."
Medical gaslighting at it’s finest! That’s like telling you, well stop having diabetes, you just can’t stop having a disease. Your SS is going through something and you can’t fix it, don’t you think he would fix it if he could? Nobody wants to feel like crap, nobody wants to have mental health issues that nobody sees or understands and then get the unsolicited advice “well if you would just do XYZ you would feel better.” Don’t you think they would have done that by now? It sounds like your SS is taking the steps he needs to get the help he can, it’s not like our health care system is the best in helping people get immediate care or answers. Look at it from this perspective, you are doing the best you can with your diabetes and sometimes it’s going to flare up and be worse and it doesn’t matter what you do to try and make it better, it will take time to work it out right? Same thing with your SS, it’s going to take some time to work it out. Be there, be a support for him, offer advice if he asks, but don’t judge him or try and give him the antiquated advice of “suck it up and get over it.”
The good news is that he's
The good news is that he's been in the military long enough that he will be taken care of no matter what. Whether he makes it to retirement or gets medical discharge with disability, he won't be left high and dry. I'm no expert on the details but i've worked in the medical field long enough to know that they don't just fire you and that's it.
The bad news is that he's got something. My guess is depression, anxiety, or bipolar. They all can surface in the 20s. You have said in the past that he goes long stretches without communicating. If it's bipolar, those may be his "up" phases. All of the above are treatable, though, and a lot of people come through it and lead successful lives with the right treatment. As long as he's willing to seek and follow treatment and stays off drugs and excessive alcohol, he can come out of this stronger. Anxiety runs deep in my family and it is a real and often crippling thing. My dad, my sister, and my youngest kid all take meds. My son goes to therapy and journals, and i (like the horrible patient medical providers often are) treat myself with herbal remedies and exercise. But know it is real and if you really have it, it's not a matter of just being lazy and needing to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That's part of it but not all of it.
Im so sorry!
Im so sorry your SS is going through this, and I know its painful to watch.
Congrats on your newest family member.
Suck it up powder puff probably wont accomplish much in this case. All good advice here I dont really have much more to give thats different.
Maybe just more attention and time - facetiming or skyping. Less gaming.
((sending prayers for your son))
I hate this for you
It is devastating to watch someone you care for deeply struggle. And regardless of the help and support around them, they won't help themselves. I wish I had the answer for you. I have a brother with some similarities to this situation, and I always wonder what is going on that I don't know about because, as Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it's not true. It doesn't mean they are lying but they aren't omitting things that could help ("lying by omission"). That being said, I imagine there is really no effective way to guide your skid because he is perhaps complacent with things, he's not able/willing to do things to improve his situation. I am very sorry you're feeling so helpless supporting him and your family in this.
He's smart. He knows what he
He's smart. He knows what he needs to do (he could probably rattle off the list of things that you would suggest if asked what he thinks you'd say). He is working with smart professionals who are helping him take the steps he needs to take when he is ready to take them.
What he needs from you and his mom is to know that he is worthy, loved and (morally - not necessarily materially) supported no matter what. That you are proud of him. That his self worth is not tied to the actions he takes in a day, his job, his social life or his mental state. He needs you both to tell him that you know that he is doing what he can and that he will find a way out of this in his own way at his own pace. He needs you to spot and recognise the small things he is doing that are tough for him right now. That he has sought help and is going to appointments and trying to find answers. That he gets up and goes to work every day. That he recognised that tardiness had to be rectified and works hard each day to be early/on time. And that he dotes on and cares so well for his cat.
I have a tendance to offer unsolicited solution based advice, it is something my own mother does and I resent being on the receiving end from her. I am trying to learn that it is often not desired or helpful. There are many ways to live life and my way is not THE correct way, people need to find their own paths. Holding my tongue and trying to be supportive is so tough, I feel for you. But what most of us need is a hug and a kind word to help us keep going on the hard days, not an action plan when we're already just trying to tread water to save ourselves from drowning. We know where the side of the river is, we just can't reach it right now.
Your son will find his own way, it just may not be the straight line you would have expected.
Thanks so much everyone. I need a kick in the butt myself upon
Thanks so much everyone. I need a kick in the butt myself upon occassion.
First, I know that my kick them in the ass, figure it out, and do something direct and focused is not always the appropriate solution to every problem.
I am extremly supportive and comforting to my DW and my son. But, I have my limits on how many times I can support beating around the same bush without making an actual change. In DW's crisis in 22 and 23 I finally got the point where I communicated that I would never demand that she quit that company but that I was not going to be able to listen to her tear herself to pieces any more. I would be there for her, I would support whatever she chose to do, but IMHO she needed to do something to end the problem. Either set and enforce boundaries with the firm, or leave. I took do nothing off of the table. Therapy, group sessions, etc, etc, etc can be extremely helpful but in my experience they can be a distracting path to avoid actually solving a problem.
How I did what I did with my DW during her crisis was a double edged sword for sure. It helped motivate her to actually make a move. It also gave her the impression that her feelings did not matter to me. Her and my son's feelings matter very much to me. However, their actual wellbeing matters more to me than their feelings which is why I have my limits on how much I can hold them as they torture themselves repeatedly.
Phew. I know my son is doing the med/psych work to find information. I know he is in a profession/organization that limits how much he can push that team to deliver and that he has basically zero ability to fire one or all of the them and just find another......
Beyond the adult onset ADHD, we have no Dx. Hopefully we will soon have a Dx and the Docs and the therapist can collaborate on getting him an effective treatment plan.
I'm not at my limit of support and comfort before I inject assertive opinions. Even when I get to that point, I stull comfort and support. It just has notable assertive guidance with it when I get to my transition point.
That, is my challenge I suppose. I have to learn to STFU and just be there. Even when it drives me nuckin futz.
Learning to stop is not something I have yet mastered in my life.
Thanks again to all of you. I appreciate all of the input, advice, support, and the boots to my backside.
It sucks when your loved ones
It sucks when your loved ones are hurting and you can't fix it. {{hugs}}
Thanks Aniki. I can't fix it
Thanks Aniki. I can't fix it. Only they can.
As frustrating as that can be... for me... and them. Because I'm a PITA.
Hey, we're all PITAs at one
Hey, we're all PITAs at one time or another. I know it's because you care and you're frustrated.
Ah...this is hard.
I struggle with severe anxiety..always have. DH's go to for a long time was to tell me...what it could be worse...just suck it up.....stop worrying..its not that bad. In a nutshell..NONE OF THIS HELPS. I tell DH..do you think I want to be like this..no...but here we are. I'm going to therapy, using the things in my toolkit, etc but sometimes...its just doesn't help. However, telling me to get over really really really doesn't help. I call it the..I don't want to listen anymore so just shut the eff up response. And yes..when DH says those things..I don't feel supported at all.
My advice...while I understand you want to "fix" it because you can't stand seeing them hurt...refrain from telling them how to do so. Your DW knew her situation was toxic...but she also knew that somewhere else might be as well. The devil you know versus the one you don't.
Your SS knows his mental health is struggling and he has reached out to professionals for help. Unfoturnately, in dealing with DH's and Sd's ADHD...sometimes depression or bipolar go right along with it. Also, ADD/ADHD can cause depression due to masking symptoms all the time, etc. Its not fun...for them our or us.
I know you mean well...just as my DH does..but if I had any advice...can the fix it response..and come from a point of ..."what can I do to help you right now?"
Too close to see the simple elegant truth. Thank you for that.
"what can I do to help you right now?"
As for dealing with the devils, known or unknown, I am more of an agressive Exorcism kind of guy. Exorcise the devils you know and don't worry about the ones you don't until they make the mistake of making themselve known.
Then... lather.... rinse... repeat.
But, I will commit to "what can I do to help you right now?" instead of fighting the Devils for them.
TY for that.
We may be making progress on his conditions.
We... being SS, DW, me, and... his med team. Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Neurologist.
But, mostly... SS and his med team.
Almost everything he has, symptom wise, is on the list of Long Covid symptoms. Malaise, brain fog, depression, anxiety, loss of smell and taste, etc.....
He is workimg with his team.
DW flies out on the 15th to move in with him for 10 days and mom the crap out of him. She will work remotely from his apartment during his work day and spoil the shit out of him in the evenings and the weekend. No doubt the cat will fall in love with CatGrandma and turn her nose up at the SKid. But, a small price to pay for getting spoiled by his mom for a week and a half.
I, will work while she is gone. I always do. Rather than sit around avoiding doing chores.