Disengaging vs Being Mean
I've been working on disengaging now for a couple weeks. Quick recap for those who haven't read or followed previous posts, my SD11 and SS9 have not taken well to me being in their lives. It's been over 6 years now and it hasn't gotten any easier. I tried being engaged for a long time as their BM is not around, but after constant rejection to the point where I am openly told by my SD that she wishes I wasn't around and leaves notes around about hating me and wanting me to die, and both of them being disrespectful on a regular basis, I decided to disengage.
I'm trying not to be mean, but sometimes it feels mean anyway, and maybe that's just because it's new still. I talked to a close friend, who knows the skids and their behavior and she says it's not mean either. And maybe I'm just being over sensitive and think that SD thinks it's mean and I'm really not trying to be mean to her so I'm second guessing myself... Clearly I'm overthinking this haha but I know I am a little bitter and hurt by the rejection and don't want to be mean unintentionally because of it.
Couple examples, I was going to the mall to pick up my BD14's school unifroms, and SD asked if she could go with me. I told her no. She asked me another day if I would curl her hair for school (nothing special going on, just wanted it curled), and I again said no. I don't feel as mean when it's less direct and I say "Ask your dad" about something, but when she asks me for something specific like that and in the past I would have said yes, it feels mean saying no now.
But I don't see why I should spend my time doing things with her or for her when she is as nasty as she is to me and is so dead set on not wanting me around. I TRIED for so long to connect with her, and sometimes thought I had until the shit hit the fan and her real feelings came out. I'm starting to wonder if she's now realizing how much I really did do for her, and is getting a taste of what not having a mom actually looks like. I kinda hope she is...
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I'm curious.. has your SD
I'm curious.. has your SD gotten any counseling to deal with the fact that her mother isn't around? I have a feeling that what you get from her isn't so much that she doesn't want YOU around personally.. but that she is having problems dealing with the fact that her own mother isn't there.. and she sees that as unfair in her universe?
I think that even though you say you don't want to be seen as being "mean".. you kind of are doing this in a way that you hope she sees what she is missing.. so I think in a small way you are hoping she feels some of the hurt of rejection that you have felt.
Now, it isn't your responsibility to take care of her.. but disengaging doesn't mean you have to do "nothing" for her.. It's all voluntary and at your option.. no need to bend over backwards really.
But, also keep in mind that for all the 'nasty notes".. it really may not be as personal as you take it.. I know it seems that way.. but it may be more complicated than the surface.
My OSD would write things about how she hated her sister.. wished she would die.. be kidnapped etc.. I know a lot of it was because when the YSD came along... her parent's relationship was ending. So, I think she saw her as somewhat the cause of all that. Does she still want to kill her sister as an adult? No.. they have a pretty close relationship... so.. sometimes the lashing out of a child is not as literal as it seems.
SD has seen school counselors
SD has seen school counselors mostly, she's seen outside professionals only a couple times and they seemed to think her behavior was normal. She likes the school counselors most from what it seems like. I definitely see where the behavior is about her BM not being around, but I guess after so many years of the same cycle, it does also feel very personal. She blames me for her mom not being around because shortly after I came into the picture, her mom left it, and the whole family sort of turned on each other over it. So she looks at me and thinks I'm the cause of all of it. Eventually, when she is older, I hope she is able to understand why everything happened the way it did, but I still don't know it will matter much to her.
As for the being mean part, you are absolutely right in the sense that a piece of me does want her to she what she is missing. But I don't want to be mean about it. I'm not sure if that makes sense? I mean I do have all these things I WANT to say that are mean that I don't say, and a simple "No" comes out.
There has been this growing anger, resentment, frustration, etc. You name it, it's been festering, within both of us for a looong time. And I finally got to the point where I had my own "nasty note" moment. Not literally by any means! I just mean in the sense that all of that anger that built up inside me came to a head. But instead of writing an actual nasty note as she would, it caused me to branch out looking for help on how to handle the situation, and that's what brought me here, and I saw all the posts on disengagement, and trying to navigate my way thru it all, and realized maybe this was the answer for me. Maybe I needed to let go and stop trying so hard to make this work. That I don't really want to do these things for her if I'm going to be treated like garbage in return. Maybe we both need a little break from each other, and it could potentially help in the long run. I'm not really sure.
I think it might help if you
I think it might help if you connect the dots for them, instead of just saying no, maybe add you said or did ABC and XYZ, and I really don’t feel like doing LMNOP for you today. I disengaged slooowly. I have no problem re-engaging if I’m being treated with kindness and respect (or in the case of taking her out, treating others with kindness and respect), but that seems to be beyond my SD’s capabilities.
When I was younger I had a
When I was younger I had a babysitter that I acted like a major brat for. When I was a little older I ended up somewhere where she was - I dont remember where or any details but I do clearly remember asking her something and her asking "are you going to be nice to me?" I got the message pretty clearly. You could try that next time she asks for something like her hair to be curled. That's assuming you want to at all though. If you dont I wouldn't consider saying no mean.
Yes, I get this.
Yes, I get this.
In my case, if SD(s) ask me for something and I've been dissed in the past for the very same thing, or used, I'll say no and explain why.
"No, SD14, I cannot take you to lunch because you are just now letting me know and I work tomorrow." (then it comes out she just wanted to go because it would be easier for BM to pick her up from there!)
"No, SD14, I cannot buy any more (snacks) because you eat the entire bag and leave none for anyone else, ask your dad if you really want them."
"No, SD13, I will not pick up any more hair conditioner for you because you use way too much at one time, ask your dad if you need more." (uses 2x as much conditioner as shampoo and then it blocks up the drain in the bathtub and of course DH never makes HER clean it up)
etc., etc. etc. - I have also said "I won't do X because I did not get thanked for the help the last several times I did so, ask your dad."
Dont be mean...that is not
Dont be mean...that is not right.
also, it does not mean be a doormat. HER dad should be making sure his child treats you with respect. It starts with him.
Your right, you dont not have to do anything for anyone when they treat you like garbage. Cooking dinner for the family, is not cooking it for her. Having a pedicure as a gift from you to her "girls afternoon' wouldnt happen if i was treated like garbage.
Definitely don't want to be mean!
That's the issue I'm having here. I'm trying not to be mean about it, but I also don't want to do things with or for her anymore and I'm having a hard time figuring out how to do that in a gentler way. It's been a pretty basic "No" or "Ask your Dad" from me lately on everything. When she asks me if she can go with me somewhere, or to do something extra for her, something that takes time from my day to do something nice for her, I have been telling her no. Where as before I would have said yes. And that is really why I am having this inner battle. That switch alone I'm sure is taken in a mean way. But I don't know what else I am supposed to do to make it easier. I think the comment from GoingWicked was pretty good, instead of a flat "No", give a little explanation of why no this time.
Instead of just "no" try "not
Instead of just "no" try "not this time" or the more direct "I'm sorry but ever since you said you wished I was dead, I just don't feel comfortable taking you around with me".
At the end of the day this is still a child. Her brain is not fully developed and she doesn't realize that she has caused permanent damage because she can't truly comprehend permanent right now. Her brain won't let her. That does not mean you have to take it or that you have to accept her behavior. Finding the balance of disengagement that works for you will take time. Disengagement isn't meant to be cold, just.... not invested.
Here’s a simple one-liner:
I do nice things for people who are nice to me.
It’s a tough situation
your feelings are understandable - that kind of rejection and hostility hurt anyone’s feelings. However, you might consider taking a step back and truly reassess your options before you proceed on this course, which will likely over time have unintended consequences. Is there another way of disengaging that would allow you some relief but require less confrontation? Only you know the answer to that. Where is the girl’s father in this situation? Why isn’t he addressing this and her obvious anger/hurt over her mother’s rejection? From your description- it appears that you and your SD have been left to unravel/deal with the consequences of a situation that neither of you created. I hope that you can find a way forward that is positive in the long term. Good luck.
You are not mean
Let her walk into a hold in the ground is mean. She does not show you any respect, and Is only a person when she wants something from you. She has to understand that notbhow life works. You have to show respect to get respect from others.
If she continues to be vile
If she continues to be vile to you except when she wants something, you have done exactly the right thing and should continue to disengage. If she has seemed to mend her ways, and they stay mended for a considerable amount of time - ie I'm talking weeks not days, then you might want to reward her by doing one of the things she politely requests. Like ntm said, "I do nice things for people who are nice to me".
Yes! 100%! I have had no
Yes! 100%! I have had no problem doing things for her, but had finally hit my limit and no longer want to do things for someone who is only nice to me when they want something from me. So yes, if she were to mend her ways I would absolutely say yes to doing things for her. May even use that line the next time she asks as a precedent.
It's not mean to expect to be treated with kindness...
I think it hits girls especially hard when their BM isn't raising them. SS may just be following his big sis' lead. Is BM in their life at all?
I can empathize with the feeling of wanting her to appreciate how much you are willing to do for her. I've been there. The harsh reality is, your SD may never appreciate what you do FOR her. I'm sure you have the best intentions with positive and nurturing things you've done for her over the years, but she may not see it as positive as you might think. It may just be a constant reminder of what her own BM isn't interested in doing. I think of it like this:
In that way, it's not personal toward you. SD would most likely be that way with any woman in your SOs life. As a wise person here on STalk told me...those emotional issues are way above our paygrade! If I had it to do all over again, my SDs would've all been seeing a good therapist to work on their BM abandonment hurts before I ever moved in. 6 years later...I sadly have no positive relationship with any of them. I now know though...it was never going to happen because they have hurts I, and not even their BD, can mend. It's hard to let go of the dream of everyone loving each other and being appreciative just to have a big happy family. But when you're in a family with kids who have been dealt the absent parent card... it's just not going to be a smooth ride.
Take care of yourself. Love and nurture your biokids as you see fit. Disengage where you can from trying to 'mother' your skids and try to just be a positive example of how human beings should treat each other no matter who they are. It is never mean to let someone know they need to treat you with kindness and decency. While you're at it...forgive yourself for wanting to say mean stuff back. People get the best of us sometimes. It happens. ;)
Thank you for your thoughtful
Thank you for your thoughtful reply!
To answer your first question, no, BM is not in their lives at all. She's an addict and has been pretty much MIA for the last almost 7 years now. She has sorta peaked her head in maybe once a year, once every year and a half, but it is literally just a quick phone call. It's been almost 2 years this time since she's been in contact. I think she may actually be gone for good now, or until the kids are older and reach out to her.
You're absolutely right though, absent parent issues aren't easy, and I know that is a factor here. I never could have expected this when I first came into this situation. But I do think that I may just have to accept that this is how it will be. There has been a lot of issues caused by DH's family that has added to this, and I don't think I will ever actually be accepted as part of their family. Kind of like forcing a square peg thru a round hole, and now the square peg is damaged from trying to force it (I'm the peg) so you give up because you realize it just doesn't fit. So yes, I want to focus more on my kids and my marriage instead of trying so hard to earn these kids' love and letting it completely consume me.
You are very welcome!
You are very welcome!
A few thoughts.
A few thoughts.
My own mother didn't curl my hair. I learned to do a lot of things on my own. Bio parents are free to say No to their kids, so why shouldn't you be? It teaches them that other people matter and they are not the center of the universe. It's possible that you have been too accomodating in the past, and SD has gotten spoiled and taken you for granted. Children don't learn empathy and gratitude from getting their way all the time. The bratty behavior is not all because she's a COD, most of it is poor discipline. If you were chasing her, that threw off the power dynamic in your relationship.
My kids are grown, so Dr Spock was a big authority when they were little. I'll always remember this quote:
So remember, by depriving a child of WANTS, you are ultimately making them happier in the long run. Your SD is not a baby, she's old enough to understand right from wrong, and she knows she's been a sh!t to you. So far she's gotten away with it. She needs to experience some consequences, or she's not going to learn how to treat people. Don't make excuses for her. You certainly wouldn't tolerate bio children treating you this way.
It sounds like you needed a break from her, and rightly so. If you didn't get a break, your resentment would grow. At least you backed off so you can cool off a little. Maybe you'll feel better.
If she's naricissistic, like my SD15 is, she may be butthurt that you disengaged. That's not the same as missing you. It's more like a blow to her self importance. And maybe being a little less Important will be good for her.
When I disengaged, initially the reason I gave for not doing things was "I don't want to" (now I don't give any explanation at all). And that was reason enough. Everyone else in our scenario was doing/not doing whatever the feck they wanted, so why shouldn't I? You are even more entitled to do what you want, because you are an adult and these skids are not your responsibilty. Maybe it's good for an entitled brat to be on the receiving side of not getting things because you "don't feel like it".
So if you want to do something, and don't expect anything in return, including gratitude, go ahead. If you don't want to, don't. Simple. It's none of her business why you don't want to.
For some SMs, a break refreshes them and they are able to resume the relationship with stronger boundaries. For me, I started disengaging slowly. The less I dealt with SD, the more objective I became, and I realized that she was even more obnoxious than I realized. Now I avoid her entirely. I'm not purposely shunning her, I just don't have the stomach to be around her. She's very toxic. I came into the picture when she was 5 and disengaged when she was 12. DH explained to her, that's what happens when you poop all over someone. In real life, you treat someone like poo and they divorce you, fire you, evict you, unfriend you. It's a hard lesson. She thought she was entitled to poop on me forever.
By ten, children should have developed a strong sense of right and wrong. Eleven to twelve is the age when children begin to understand abstract thoughts, perceive other people as distinct individuals with their own feelings and motives, show empathy, and have the ablility view things from the standpoint of others. These skids are responsible for their behaviors.
Maybe this could be a catalyst for your SD to evaluate why she's been such a brat, and her behavior will improve.
Sounds very familiar to my
Sounds very familiar to my situation. She was also 5 when I came around, and going on 12. I too know that she is responsbile for her behaviors. She isn't stupid and has always seemed somewhat more advanced with thoughts and feelings, and at her age I can no longer make excuses for it or tolerate it in hopes things will get better.
I can honestly say neither H or I have been overly accommodating. We have a pretty strict household. No one gets things just because they want it, they have to earn it. We parent in a more traditional way, no one has cell phones or unlimited access to TV, and there is limited use of computers and mainly it's for school work. We have always modeled and tried to stress the importance of respect and responsibility, and if we do not get those then they lose their privledges, they get grounded, they have to do extra chores or yard work, etc. The issue is, they don't seem to care if they get in trouble, it just adds fuel to the fire and they act out even more because they're mad they got in trouble.
My reason for this post was because I don't want to be mean about disengaging, but I do want to disengage. I have no desire to be around her anymore. I tried making it work for a long time and haven't made any progress, and I don't want to spend anymore energy trying. But, as you said, I don't want to purposely shun her either.
After all the comments I've received, I really think it is just something I need to stick with and it will seem less foreign as it becomes the norm. I loved the suggestions of giving a brief explanation of why I'm not doing it for her, whether it's as simple as I don't want to or whatever. Might be better than just a "No" and help her to see that her actions have consequences bigger than simply not watching TV or riding her bike or being grounded.