Lack of Gratitude or am I Nuts? HELP!
Ladies and Gentlemen, I am posting to test my sanity because I seriously believe I am losing my mind... For context, this is a 22yo SS whose Father saved not a penny for college. My SS purposefully and with spite excluded me from his graduation ceremony. That said, I would have politely declined. In fact, despite that fact that I can't recall a single moment in the last 5y that he has even pretended to be nice to be we haven't fought in a bit. And, I (not Dad and me... ME) bought him a rather expensive graduation gift which he clearly will no receive.
His Father and I paid for his education "toether" which, frankly, was a joke, while his child yelled at me, swore at me, and put his fists through the walls of my home.
Besides that. feel free to support me or to tell me how much I suck. Because I clearly feel like I'm missing a verse... I guess no good deed goes unpunished. Rags, I hope you're out here tonight because you are always the voice of reason and I really need some help. Thoughts fro you all? Pink*****
Today I spoke with both <X> and my Father. It seems that the relationship—or lack thereof—between you and me is causing rippling repercussions in the lives of many people.
As you are well aware by now, my graduation ceremony is on Saturday the 19th of May. This is an event that holds little importance in my life, but apparently a lot in the lives of others—I already have the silly piece of paper.
I had ruminated over extending an invitation to you knowing full well that you would most likely decline. Theoretically, I would like you to be there. I'd like you to meet my Mother and I'd like to have you there to thank you for the support you have given me
Today, I am well aware that the issues you have with me are affecting my father’s life in immeasurable ways. I wish you could contact me about the issues you are having. I like you greatly, but I feel that there are many offenses that have gone unresolved. I understand that you have felt, and continue to feel, hurt about the way that I have reacted, or not reacted, to what you feel have been obvious acts of benevolence—most of these stemming back to money.
Following this will be an exploration of the circumstances which have led to us to be where we are. These are points that we both clearly disagree upon and will most likely come across as rude and curt. I do not seek any emotional response, I am not trying to make you feel guilt, or angry, or to seek an apology, but rather am attempting to illustrate my perspective. For me, everything that has happened up until today is irrelevant to my life. I have become quite good at letting things go. Though there are still a few things that I have trouble with, and I want to express these. I want to be able to agree to disagree and acknowledge that we are both incredibly, and quite astoundingly, stubborn individuals who, once have made their mind, are scarce to change positions.
I also would like to set some assumptions about this discussion. The first being that we know that my father has many flaws and that much of this can be stemmed back to him. The second being, he's a great man and love you tremendously and wants the best for absolutely everyone. The third, we both should have totally ignored him and have communicated well earlier. Fourth, I'm tired of blaming him for being bad at things.
If there is one thing about me that I think you do not understand and I wish you did, it is that money means nothing to me. I am quite sure you know that I grew up in significant relative—emphasis on relative—poverty. There were multiple times in which I was homeless. The point of this statement is to say, that in these times, I did not have money. But what I did in fact have was a strong network of friends who treated me as if they were family. Blood means next to nothing in my definition of love and family. Money and gifts are not a sign of love or appreciation to me.
I know how much you have helped my father handle his finances, and how that has enabled him to help me in my times of need—something I am endlessly grateful for. But I struggle feeling appreciative knowing that you both purchased—I say both, but I know that you carry the largest financial burden—a half million-dollar house, and 3 condos. The house was purchased when I was still in high school. I was left to live alone for a year, and live with a friend for another year. The financial support was much more obvious in high school than it has been in college. But knowing that these purchases were made combined with the fact that I was claimed as a dependent, and forced to take out my own private loans seems like an immense sign of neglect and disregard.
There is one incident that I hold as the highest disrespect. This occurred on August 31st, 2014, the day before my first day of college. I am sure you remember quite well. I still do not know why or what the circumstances were, but I was told that police were called and alerted of my belligerence. I was quick to leave and let that go, but I had expected in the years following at least a brief acknowledgement of it and a discussion of it.
This past summer while working for xxx and xxx was my personal tipping point. I found myself working well in that environment. Then one day unbeknownst to me, I found myself in numerous situations that involved people talking about me and my life outside of work. I was viewed by leadership as an ungrateful individual. Mind you, these were people I never actually worked with. It seemed directly antithetical to the truly benevolent act of you helping me score that job—as an aside, the summer in Austin was one of the highlights of my life and I would never take it back and I can never thank you enough for helping me live there. I still think you both should move to XXX, fuck XX, it's too damn cold. From there forth I decided that it was in my best interest to be entirely separated from you.
I am sure you are aware, but I have started a new job. It is the best job I have had to date. It has an environment that is conducive to a healthy mental state for everyone involved, something entirely lacking at Accenture. The number one take away I have had and am embracing is the concept of setting clear expectations. My Father has always been the monkey in the middle setting these expectations, and bless his heart, has failed fucking miserably.
I think it would be healthy for you me and my father to sit down and have that discussion about what we all expect. I know first and foremost, I expect honest communication. When there is an issues I want to be informed. I do not want my father informed and have him inform me. I want to hear all of the dirty details and all of the things that would upset me, and hear the things that are upsetting you, the things that are upsetting my father, the things that can make your life easier. All of that. I'm tired of not being able to see you, or my Father, or Scarlett. All of this is a whole load of crap which belongs with the other crap. Life shouldn't be this way. No one should be this upset all the time. It's silly. I am 22, my Father just turned 50, and this has been happening since I was 15. That's way too fucking long, and we can all agree on that. I have another graduation in two years that I would like you to attend.
I’d like to say “fuck it”, and really not care about anything except what happens tomorrow and the day after that, if that’s okay.
This is very well written,
This is very well written, but I do see a couple of reveal moments beneath. (Sorry for the length.) First of all, no matter what he says, money does mean something to him. This line is a clue, “I know how much you have helped my father handle his finances, and how that has enabled him to help me in my times of need—something I am endlessly grateful for. But I struggle feeling appreciative knowing that you both purchased—I say both, but I know that you carry the largest financial burden—a half million-dollar house, and 3 condos.” And, he also is not endlessly grateful.
I would not say he is being manipulative, but I would say he doesn’t get it. I sense below the surface is a very intelligent man who is caught up in the same loop that a lot of older step-kids seem to get caught up in, and that is that SM (dad’s wife) and him are equals or on same kind of the same footing with dad. A lot of SKs even as adults buy into this, because that is what is shown in the media all the time—that SMs “take” dad’s affections AND money from them. Also, there is the high probability that some sort of PAS’ing may have gone on from BM or others. Sometimes peers, friends who are also SKs egg each other on.
In reality, dad’s wife and dad’s child (even adult child) are two different roles with different levels of communication, accessibility, input and even different kinds of love going on. Very few young SKs get this, and, unfortunately, I find that even as adults, many don’t get this. They just continue to think that dad “choose” SM over them, somehow.
I do get the feeling from this letter that he is confused by your role, and even his own. You and your DH did what most SMs do and should do, act like husband and wife when they are together and make husband and wife decisions. I’m sure neither of you set out to deny SS anything. However, because of the way society looks at SMs in general, it is just too easy for SKs to look at some of these decisions as where SM and dad got to party, so to speak, while they were somehow left and abandoned. In an intact household, no where near as many children question these types of decisions because it is much more obvious to them that adults, especially married adults, get to make these kinds of decisions without their input.
So, what to do about this. If there is one thing I also see in this letter, it is your SS’s pain. It seems like there are a couple of long-held issues he has, and he also has an axe to grind, which is OK. I don’t think he is intentionally being ungrateful or manipulative--? Like I said above, I just don’t think he gets it. He asked in the letter for some sort of group meeting with you and dad. What I would suggest is that you and your DH agree to do this, WITH a counselor experienced in blended families present. If anything, you may be able to clear the air, and that way, your SS won’t be able to turn the discussion into a be.atch session, which I highly suspect he would if it were just you, him and your DH.
At this session, I’d try to mostly just listen. His upbringing is mainly his DH’s responsibility, and even though your SS may not realize this, most of his beef should be with his dad, and not with you stuck in the middle. (YOU are the one in the middle and not DH and not SS.) You provided a lot for him, and you didn’t have to by any means. He seems to recognize that somewhat, and yet at the same time, resent you for it. Again, unfortunately not all that uncommon with SKs, because they don’t look at SM anywhere near as much as being dad’s wife as they look at her as being some sort of competition for them.
Anyway, just my suggestion. Your SS is intelligent and articulate, for sure. But, I think he has also bought into a lot of the stereotypes many SKs, both young and old, do. Whatever you do, don’t let yourself be attacked in this discussion, and esp. don’t let DH and SS somehow gang up on you. That is why I recommend having a mediator, of sorts present. If this occurs during any discussion, get up and walk away and disengage because at that point, both have made it clear that you are their mark (scapegoat) vs. clearing the air between dad and son, which is what really needs to go on here.
Hugs, and best of luck to you! I dread the day I get a letter like this. It won’t be easy. Just remember, you are your DH’s wife and SS is your DH’s child.
Thank you! And, What Do You Think?
Thank you, Idvilan... Interestingly, here is what I sent back to this...
"Dear XYZ,
"Thank you for your thoughtful message.
Set up a meeting with an independent third party counselor or clergy member and I’ll do my best to attend.
Have a great day,"
... and his response to me...
"Dear XYZ,
You are welcome. I will not set up a third party counsel as this is for the benefit of you and my father. However, if you two decide to go ahead and set one up, please give me two weeks notice so I can coordinate with work travel.
Thank you,
XYZ"
And... just because it's so crazy...
He's had a job for THREE WEEKS... but we are supposed to plan around HIM.
1) he's a "victim"
1) he's a "victim"
2) is he confronting his BM about her "immense neglect and disregard" for not contributing to his education?
3) "immense"?? "neglect"?? was he living in a cardboard box??
4) he is not grateful, his college days should have been luxurious, while the rest of us who paid our own ways lived on ramen and graduated with debt.
5) he wanted YOU to approach HIM with an apology after he tried to intimidate you?? ayfkm?
6) he is alllll about money, and he should never get another cent
No. Just no.
I LOVE THIS FORUM!
This place is a serious sanity-saver.
Thanks, lspofacto for your response. I may freaking love you!
1) he's a "victim"
Yes. And doesn't even have the words "thank you" in his vocabulary...
2) is he confronting his BM about her "immense neglect and disregard" for not contributing to his education?
Of course not. Mommy dearest while collecting food stamps against my tax dollars can do no wrong. I mean, who else is going to pay for his kid's vacation on breaks for the college education she hasn't paid a penny towards?
3) "immense"?? "neglect"?? was he living in a cardboard box??!
Ha! He was living in "neglect" in a multi-million dollar home with an ocean view in Marin, CA... for giggles this "poverty" is the 16th RICHEST zip codes in the United States. And, he had the option to move into the blasphemous "$500,000" house but he didn't want to leave his 14yo underage girlfriend
4) he is not grateful, his college days should have been luxurious, while the rest of us who paid our own ways lived on ramen and graduated with debt.
^^^ WHAT YOU SAID ^^^
5) he wanted YOU to approach HIM with an apology after he tried to intimidate you?? ayfkm?
Yeah. NOT happening.
6) he is alllll about money, and he should never get another cent
Not another freaking penny. In fact, I am very tempted to shut off our joint credit cards this very second and let dear Daddy be embarrassed as all get out when he goes to pick up the exorbitant dinner tab to look like Mr. Big Man after the graduation. What happens when it's declined? I'd never do that but it is sure fun to think about...
That's me! "Lived on ramen
That's me too! "Lived on ramen and graduated with debt." Pinkb--make sure you shut off that CC the day after.
Right!?!?
Neither my husband or any of his siblings (3) nor I had a single penny of help from our parents for college. But, I am supposed to empty bank accounts that I started populating long before he was born in favor of his education instead of my retirement? My husband is 50yo (I am 43) and has $1,000 in retirement.
I have far more than that and we'll make it financially eventually but we are certainly playing "catch up" because of this punk. I am beside myself on this baloney.
I would tell him to go live
I would tell him to go live his “perfect” live and to permanently stay out of your life.
He adds nothing to your life.
My response to this
My response to this ungrateful adult man child, who appears to be trying to build a case against you would be something like:
"Please provide me with specific examples of The rippling repercussions affecting other people."
"You father and I paid for your silly piece of paper, as you call it" "you could at least be grateful to your father for your silly piece of paper that will help ensure you are no longer homeless, blah, blah, blah..."
"Please detail what issues you feel I have are affecting my husband's life"
"You clearly do not care for me, and that is fine and your choice. If you are so good at letting things go, than let it go and if you have issues with your father perhaps you should meet with him about it. I do not need to be included in these discussions."
"not sure why you feel your father has failed so badly." Posed as a question
I would also ask him to elaborate on the 8/2014 incident and reiterate why the police were called.
If you and DH paid for his college, what was he "forced" to have to take out his own private loan for? Maybe he should grow up and learn to adult, like taking out loans working and having to pay for things. Seems like he's very resentful and maybe jealous that money spent on homes/condos wasn't spent on him. Ugh!
"If money means nothing to you than why do youbring it up multiple times?"
I would ask him to explain what is he talking about in the statement about his job and how people were thinking he was ungrateful who did not know him.
I have received rude messages from the adult skids too, and so has my DH. The same tone was always in them, in how it was always somehow my fault that DH did not do whatever they wanted. Why do these adult skids always need to blame the SM for something our DH's want to or don't want to do?
Your SS sounds like a disrespectful, angry, and resentful nightmare. I'd either put him in his place before he gets worse or ignore him completely.
good luck
For me, everything that has
For me, everything that has happened up until today is irrelevant to my life.
Who is he kidding?
For me, everything that has
For me, everything that has happened up until today is irrelevant to my life.
^^^^^^ If this is so, why bother taking the time to write this BS essay that's full of "oh woe-is-me"? If you want to take the time to have a "meeting" I'd also agree on a neutral party/mediator to assist in sorting out the mess.
I feel like it doesn't matter what you do. It will never appease him and will NEVER be enough. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't. Hoping all goes well for you.
Right????
Right???
You are a fool if you invest
You are a fool if you invest one more dime of your money or 5 more minutes of your time on this POS.
Just block him and go on with your life.
Thanks, ntasm3...
He's blocked. That part is done... I just needed some assurance that I wasn't crazy. He's been this much of a jerk since I've known him. And, it won't change. I get that.
I just have to get right in my own mind and I know that's between me and me.
But, this group keeps me from feeling quite as crazy.
You're not crazy. Crazy would
You're not crazy. Crazy would be trying to reason with someone who holds you responsible for the woes and travesties of his life. You won't win this way, so dont' even try.
I agree with EVERY poster!
Please keep SS's letter and read it every so often to remind yourself why you have nothing to do with this unappreciative, resentful, narcissistic POS. Just curious what your DH's response to this nonsense was?
I know I posted the Narcissist's Prayer on another post but it just seems designed for your SS:
The Narcissist's Prayer
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, it's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did,
You deserved it.
Thank you sandye... you are always a source of wisdom...
My husband's response was "well, that didn't hurt MY feelings... why should it hurt yours?" Are you freaking kidding me!?!
And, yes, the NP totally applies. Thank you for that!
Wookiee_Momma! Ha! I'm
Wookiee_Momma! Ha! I'm keeping your "reading between the lines" response for future reference. Pinkb may want to tweak this a bit and send!? Maybe not, but tempting I'm sure!
Pfffft. I didn't even read
Pfffft. I didn't even read all of his blathering to know 2 things:
Wow, time for the facts I
Wow, time for the facts I think. Send him the spreadsheet with comprehensive figures on how much YOU and his father have supported him over the years. Line item by line item map it out for him. CS, direct money, cars, trips, tuition, college expenses, etc, etc, etc.... He obviously thinks that he paid for college with his school loans. It is time for clarity. And a guy who has worked for Accenture to claim that money means nothing to him just proves that he is full of shit. Accenture is about nothing but money.
Make the message that if he doesn't care about money then you expect reimbursement for every penny ever spent on him since you entered the fray.... winth itnerest. Hey, he doesn't care about money. Put that in his face and see how he responds. If he truly doesn't care about money... he will cut you a check. Obviously his actions following getting the spreadsheet and bill will expose him as being full of shit regarding his care for money.
What millenial snow flake morons like this fail to realize is that money is earned by commitment, performance, investing countless hours of personal time, and when he says he doesn't care about money what he demonstrates is that he doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself. I truly hope he runs into a far more intelligent snowflake who will nail him with a kid or six and who will fleece him to the bone and leave him destitute so that when he comes whinning back for help you and his dad can remind him that he doesn't care about money and blood and family do not represent love to him so being on the hook for a ton of CS and never seeing his kids really doesn't matter to him.
Then in a support document outline his behaviors over the years. Each and every sordid little detail of his toxic crap.
Use his claim to an intellect to bare his ass and have fun doing it. For sure I would share that blather of sputum with his father just do nail home the fact that this kid is a toxic child more so now that he is an "adult" than he ever was as an actual child.
Counter with the figures and facts and rub his nose in them.
And don't forget.... Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
Most of all have fun watching him go down in flames. Invariably he will. And enjoy every minute of watching his entire life unfold as an epic failure.
Just my thoughts of course.
Preach RAGS, I hear you!
Preach RAGS, I hear you!
Re-reading...
Re-reading through this (as suggested) a couple times a week to keep my head on straight...
Just in other enforcement news...
This is the same kid that stood up at a county school board meeting to attempt to get his high school sports coach fired forn benching him because he swore at said coach during practice.
SMH.
Rags...
I freaking love you...
You are the adult
You are the adult, Its was your money. He is an ass. I would not have anything to do with him. There will be no three way discussion. Because SS is dead in your life. And you don’t talk to dead people. He can have a happy life. But you are not going to be part of it. You did more then you should. And that the way you get repaid
Dead in your life
From what I gather it sounds
From what I gather it sounds like his father and mother were negligent while he was growing up. If he was living off the good graces of his parents friends while still being claimed as a dependent then he's right that was gross neglect. Sucks what happened to him and i can understand his anger but this is really something he needs to take up with the responsible parties, his bio parents. It also sounds like dad tried to make up for being a sh*tty parent after the fact by buying his forgviness, with the help of your money.
If skid really wants group counseling then he needs to do it with mom and dad, this is a first famly issue that doesn't involve you. He really should get counseling on his on to work out his demons because he can't go back make his parents be the responsible loving parents he wanted. In my expereince clergy are unqualified to deal with these kind of issues so direct him towards a certified counselor
Amen, still learning...
We claimed him on our taxes during high school and college. And, we paid for him to live with us and for him to live with "a friend" during PART of the last year of high school.
That being said... I strongly suggested AGAINST this. The reason I suggested against this is because it was a legal "toss up". It was absolutely legal for us to claim him and was equally legal NOT to which would have set him up much better for financial aid. (Mom still collects food stamps). His grades were not good enough for any help there. And, my husband and I (:the bitch").together make too much money for much "need based" attention.
We talked to more than one financial advisor about this (and I have the paper trail to boot) but I didn't win this argument. With all our other deductions it made ZERO impact on our returns either which way. I was trying to look ahead for the sake of the little jacka$$. Because certainly he is ALWAYS thinking about me! (NOT)
SS called this tax $hit out junior year of college and DEMANDED that we re-file our taxes. I forwarded along the correspondence I had with his Father and that his Father and I had together with our CPA which clearly spelled out that this choice was made by his Father against my opinion. At the time, I also shared that we were very willing to refile our taxes.
HOWEVER, he and his Father were going to have to come up with the funds to pay the CPA for the refile (our taxes are messy). And, as soon as they were available I would be happy to sign...
CRICKETS.
I absolutely agree. I threw out the olive branch on counseling and he pretty much told me to "go to hell".
So, I'll put on my dunce hat and sit in the corner with my wallet which is the only thing he cares about.
I recommend that you just
I recommend that you just write him off. And as Harry said he is dead to you and you do not talk to dead people.
But at most I would say "Go away. Do not ever contact me again." And if your DH wants to complain just tell him to STFU or you will cut him off financially too.
When I wrote SS33 and his GF out of my life (for hideous actions) I just told DH "Keep them away from me". It's been a year and a half and they could be dead as far as I am concerned. I did not make an overt financial threat to my DH, but we are retired and I have 10x more money than he does. As an aside I also lived in the Bay area on the Peninsula for years and accumulated a tidy retirement from my home and job benefits.
I don't think I would ever make that direct threat to DH about cutting him off - but I think it is implicit. I will NOT be used and abused by his spawn. I love my DH and he treats me great. BUT - if he wanted me to put up with SS I would consider that treating me like sh*t. I would not accept that and my DH knows that without me spelling it out.
First Read Here.
I just read this and need to read your other Blogs but you have had it wayyyy worse than me ( at least with my YSD ) and I commend you for doing so well on all fronts, I am honestly impressed.
Hope things have gotten better since you first posted this.
Thanks Major...
It has been a long, trying road. I don't know what I would have done without this site. I might be in jail.
I'm done being a doormat for this kid. Disengagement is HARD but I'm getting pretty good at it.
We NEVER talk about thie kid anymore. When my husband brings of his never ending stories of awsomeeness. I don't know how everyone else grew up but high school report cards of B-Ds do not a scholar make. I was shocked as all "get out" that he even got into college. Of course, his "safety school". Now he's planning on going to grad school in the fall to gain a (unless) post-grad degree. And, he had the nuts to ask Disney Daddy to pay for that, too. I told my husband "go ahead" and pack you're shit while you're at it. I'm doing this again.
He hasn't caved (yet. It's also been made clear that I will not be disrespected in my own home.. Just because my husband is intent on ki$$ing his son's ass 24x7 and "but he doesn't mean it"... F* that shit.
Any conversation that my husband starts about him is met wirh "that's nice" and then I promtly leave the room.
He's gotten the point. Finally.
Thanks for your post.
Pink
It gets better!
Congratulations Pink, you are at the turning point in your marriage. Your DH is still there after you have stated your boundaries. It DOES take a while for them to get it that you are serious and "but he doesn't mean it" will never work again. But eventually, if you stand by your boundaries and continue to say "that's nice" and walk off, DH's "never ending stories of awesomeness" will become few and far between.
After I disengaged DH tried to convince me that SD "REALLY likes you!" I didn't allow myself to get sucked into the implied guilt. This site helped tremendously to ground me in reality and to believe in mutual respect in ALL relationships.
If you think about relationships you have had with other people who acted like your SS. I'll bet the relationship didn't last. From what your SS wrote to you, he was making you and DH responsible for his future and his happiness - ALL of it!! Maybe this could be a trade, right? After all of the money and kindness you have contributed to SS's education and happiness, SS will make sure you and DH are well taken care of in your senior years. LOL