WARNING LONG I've been lurking for quite sometime... Prenup question??
So to the nitty gritty. I live in a very nice 1 bedroom apt NYC, I'm 26, no kids, a police officer with NYPD for a little over 4years (as is BF) Bachelors from JJAY with ambitions to go to law school that I hope to realize next year (studying to take the LSAT's). I'd also like to own a boutique, (and run a fashion blog, semi related to my boutique) though that goal is a long ways off.
He is gonna be 29 in August, lived home with his mother (prior to moving in with me) who he helps out, because she had a stroke, he has two kids by two different women. The first turned 3 in march he wasn't 'with' her when she got pregnant they were friends first then started sleeping together, she got pregnant, and he manned up, and adores the first daughter. They attempted to live together for a year for his daughter, but he just didnt love her, she complained about how much he helped his mother whereas his sentiment was I don't love you anyway- I'm only here for my daughter (half my stuff is still at my mothers) I provide for the household, and my child, and you're still complaining? So he moved back in with his mother. Their relationship seems amicable- no drama... yet. BM #2 was strictly about sex he swears he used a condom during their brief sexual relationship except once which she confirmed, but he takes responsibility. He gives BM #1 $500 a month and BM #2 $500 a month. We make at our pay scale btwn $1200-$1400 a paycheck after taxes. He's also a personal trainer, and I'm guessing thats where his extra income comes from since he has way more responsibilities than I but yet maintains his home, the kids, a car, and a gf. He RARELY sees baby # 2, and the mother has to practically beg him to see, or pick up the baby. He's done it 3x's in almost 9 months. The third time was because I wanted to meet both girls I met them both on the same day (first and only time his daughters met each other) I try to encourage him to be as active w/ baby # 2 as he is w/ the first one. I believe due in part to his uncertainty re: paternity he won't develop a bond.
In the beginning BM #1 used to piss me off she seemed to always call him to do things that were 'for the baby' that in my opinion fell under the umbrella of things your man should do. He hadn't been in a 'serious relationship' since theirs so when she would ask for favors outside of the child support he gives her, and his minding his child, he didn't mind as their relationship isn't antagonistic.
Here's my issue that I'd like you to help me with. I'd like to put it on the table that I'd like prenup. As a cop I see a lot of people (usually the male cops with SAHM/wives) get fucked in the end. They have to pay alimony, or SHARE their pension. I would like to be a two star chief where as he'd like to stop at Lt. (though I'm trying to convince him otherwise). Add to that the fact that he has two kids I want to make sure my own children (future kids) are the ones who benefit the most from my hard work. I don't mind helping him here, and there buying his children gifts for Christmas, and BDAY's, and such, but I do not want to be apart of his obligation where it comes to child support. I do not want HIS child support to be seen as a joint expense. I feel no type of affection for them. Just indifference. The only way I could see that happening is if the child lived with us, and the bond grew that strong which (either of them living full time with us) isn't likely. To take it a step further I feel as though at some point one or both BM's will take him to court for child support (right now it's informal), and he will end up paying more than he does now and not being able to shoulder his portion of our joint expense. If that were to happen I may end up shouldering more of the financial responsibilities/burden in our household. I've decided that marriage is a partnership if I make more I'll contribute more, BUT if I contribute more because of his child support I'd like to own a larger share in our home (future home) to compensate me for such. Otherwise I think I'd feel like I'm indirectly paying his child support if I cover more of the bills so he can afford to pay. Now people want to know why it matters if I own a greater share since we'll be married? Well IF we end up divorced I'll get a larger share, because I OWN a larger share, and if we don't and we live happily ever after I'm leaving my assets (evenly) to my children (I'll leave his children something but like I said somewhere along the lines of what I'd leave a niece and nephew not like my own children), and he'll split his between ALL of his children. I think that's fair. I want to know if I'm over thinking things. If I'm being selfish. And if he'll expect me to do for his children exactly as I'd do for mine.
Below is a roughy draft of a marriage plan as I hate the term pre-nup. I'd like to bring it up as I see no point in getting in much deeper without knowing that he would agree. I don't want to end up a bitter resentful wife which I know I will be if I do too much.
MARRIAGE PLAN
SHARED HOUSEHOLD EXPENSES (aka recurring necessity)
-Mortgage
-Home taxes
-Home insurance
-Heat cost
-Sewer cost (if any)
-Water
-Light
-Gas
-Groceries
-Home phone/Internet/cable
-Health insurance
-Home maintenance (repairs etc)
-Fixing home...
-Landscaping
-(529 college plan when we have kids together)
-(Our future) kids activities/extra
-Household credit card (if any)
-Joint saving acct (money cannot be used w/out the agreement of the other party)
-Emergency fund
-Shared investment/stock/bonds
(recurring necessity) **split 50/50 when income is equal (or close to equal) or on a percentage/sliding scale/ratio based on both parties (base pay) income [for example if I make 7k monthly and you make 4k monthly, I'll contribute $7 for every $4 of yours to our joint expenses]. Not counting OT just base pay.
RECURRING-(non-essential)
-vacation fund
-Furniture/ decoration
WIFES EXPENSES
-Personal savings acct
-Shopping (shoes/clothes)
-Grooming (hair/nails/waxes)
-Cell phone
-Recreational/Entertainment (w/ my girls)
-Car note (if any) if a larger car is required as a family vehicle I may require my husband to help me with part of the down payment as this expense is due solely for the benefit of our children.
-Car insurance
-Car registration
-Car maintenance
-Summons (red light)
-ITHP/deferred comp/50-50
-Personal Credit card (if any)
-My student loans (if ever)
HUSBAND's EXPENSES
-Personal savings acct
-Shopping (shoes/clothes)
-Grooming (hair/nails)
-Cell phone
-Recreational/Entertainment (hanging w/ the boys)
-Car note
-Car insurance
-Car registration
-Car maintenance
-Summons (red light)
-ITHP/deferred comp/50-50
-Child support
-Saving for (his) kids college edu 529 plan maybe? (this expense shared with the childs mother).
-His kids activities/extras (this expense shared with the childs mother)
-Personal Credit card (if any)
-Life insurance (a separate policy for his children if he so chooses)
-Student loans (if ever)
Ante-nuptial agreement
Due to the fact that each party has the same (or very similar) earning potential
1) Both parties give up the rights to alimony
2) "Child support" is a separate debt that belongs to the named spouse. There will be no enforced/ obligatory stepparent responsibilities unless the natural parent dies OR gives up all rights, AND the stepparent adopts the child.
3) Professional licenses/ designation not considered marital property. Nor is there monetary value considered marital property.
4) A business owned is the property of the owner, and while a one time equitable compensation MAY be claimed against it; no claim of "ownership" can be made on the business (unless jointly owned and maintained).
5) Pensions/ Retirement accounts remain with the original party (except through death provisions will be made).
6) Premarital debt remains with the originating party
insurance to cover the cost).
**Tenants in common indicate that "ownership interest" in a home does not automatically revert to the surviving co-owner, but to whomever the original owner "trusted" their share of the home too. If something were to happen to me I am leaving ownership interest to my children however my home will be in a QTIP trust ensuring my husband (and any subsequent wife & kids) may continue to live there. However upon his death my children retain ownership interest, and the home must be sold or their "ownership interest" bought out at market value unless they want the home then they must buy out the co-owners ownership interest.
***discuss estate planning, and do so prior to wedding. Review upon purchasing a home.
****taxes may be filed separately
*****each party is free to help another party w/ there personal expenses (since marriage is after all a partnership) but is NOT obligated to do so consistently.
******All premarital assets and liabilities/obligations remain w/ the original party. Substantial {define substantial} LOTTERY WINNING are marital property.
******* Due to equitable earning potential savings in a personal savings acct are the sole property of the acct holder, and NOT marital property.
******** Neither party should make foolish purchases w/ their discretionary funds IF said purchases shall impact their ability to contribute to the families joint expenses (budget) (example: I will not buy/finance/lease a Range Rover if doing so will impede my ability to cover my half of our shared budget- there by straining our family finances).
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Comments
@dog person thank you. I was
@dog person thank you. I was actually considering owning our future home entirely (separately). My thought process is at LEAST 34% of his income legally belongs to his kids. I could afford a mortgage payment with 34% of my income. I'd need him to sign a prenuptial stating that- that asset (equal to 34%) is my separate property and is to remain my separate property. I would maintain it on my own mortgage/insurance/taxes etc and we would split all the "shared household" bills proportionate to our income. IMO that's fair but at times I feel selfish thinking that way... I'm looking out for my future and my future children.
OMG! Please do a pre-nupt!
OMG! Please do a pre-nupt! Get an attorney, spend the money on yourself and your future!
Dog person has given you some
Dog person has given you some excellent advice, especially about consulting an outside attorney re: duress.
I like your ideas Insistingonprenup, they define what you think is fair and you are very clear. Your outline of joint expenses, etc related to household and any future children is good.
If I were you (and I do this) both incomes would be kept separately as well as accounts, etc. Household bills have one joint account. His child support and related expenses going forward, no matter what they are, are his. Same with me.
Any future children are joint responsibility 50/50. Agreed and fine.
Observations:
He has had two children by two different women in the space of 3 years.
He pays different amounts of both attention and child support to the two kids.
He returns to his mother each time a relationship failure happens.
He lives a good lifestyle but doesn't appear to have the means to support said lifestyle.
Conclusion:
Your focus on preparing a bulletproof prenup is fronting your fear of being the third failed relationship and also rightly protecting your assets in the likely event he is either deeply in debt or will be deeply in debt.
Sorry. Just what I see.
Ooh, this. So totally this. I
Ooh, this. So totally this.
I think a prenup makes a lot of sense for you. However, not all of that is "prenup" material. It sounds like you want to itemize out every expense and contribution for the duration of your marriage. Life is messy, and doesn't always go according to plan. This type of thought process and documenting and forming a contract to guarantee it screams to me that you are NOT ready for marriage...especially to this man.
@stickaforkinme. The majority
@stickaforkinme. The majority of the the things I want to classify as separate items are my various retirement/saving accounts. Seeing as how he has more obligations than I do and we are in the same career field it's likely I'll retain more of my wealth. God forbid our marriage should end I dont think it fair that I subsidize his future w/ my assets and possibly alimony... Deciding that the same percentage of my income that he's legally obligated to pay in CS is invested in a home that is separate property is fair in my opinion. 34% of his income goes out the door. At least my 34% benefits us even if it remains my property. The other items are a template we'll use as a reference point.
You're making an enormous
You're making an enormous amount of assumptions.
Get a prenup. Protect your ASSETS. However, a prenup protects assets you possess prior to marriage. Is NY a community property state?
If so, assets bought with money earned during the marriage become community property.
Also, you are trying to contractually obligate the damn utility payments. I stand by what I said previously.
You are NOT ready for marriage. At least with THIS man.
Personally, any "intended" who came to me with the laundry list you have would be shown the door. I'm ALL for protecting assets, but dang...
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^, 1,000
^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^, 1,000 times this. Just because it's on paper doesn't mean it will all be enforceable, some of it may be considered unconscionable. And also, what attorney in their right mind would let him agree to all of those things? I know I wouldn't.
I agree with prenups and usually recommend the same to each and every client that I had but that's usually because they have a ton of assets coming in to the marriage and shouldn't have to split those later. I tell them that they need to address some of the assets that may be gained during the marriage and to be flexible as there are ways (at least in my state) to do post nup agreements as well as addendums to the pre nup.
But typically these are people who are very much in love but also very affluent on their own. What you are describing is someone who you don't trust with money. And possibly with parenting given some of the things that you describe. Not sure but you may want to take a long hard look at this relationship and ask yourself, if this man were the love of your life, would you really be looking at a prenup on utilities?
@stickafork no NY is a
@stickafork no NY is a equitable distribution state and I believe that a prenuptial can also dictate future earnings as well. A prenuptial can dictate anything except things concerning a third party ie: child support and certain things with the IRS...
@Nowhave5 I have my own career (the same as my BF) exact same benefits etc. With the ambition to go further. If something should happen to me I have MY OWN safeguard. My marriage is for the security of my children. I am a working woman therefore my security rests with me. Many of the provisions married provided was for the non working less monied spouse that doesn't apply to me.
@sueu2 I did in fact mention
@sueu2 I did in fact mention our savings retirement plans etc. We were going to keep those as separate property and waive rights to those since we each have our own. In regards to the second daughter she arose from a one night stand. He tried to be apart of her life and the mother made all sorts of demands. I couldn't see the child ok fine. The child was not allowed in our home. Ok fine. Then she got more an more demanding. He had to spend his entire days off with the child alone at his mothers with no visitors (meaning me) she had the right to show up as she pleased. When he wouldn't agre she decides that he had to see the child in her home. He shot that down as wel and just hasn't seen the child. They do not have CS through the courts which he's trying to avoid but it's inevitable. And as for marriage plan- prenuptial language it all semantics. If will be a legally binding prenuptial well before our marriage, with each of us represented by independent counsel. I just use the term marriage plan but make no mistakes I intend to have a prenuptial...
I agree that some of the
I agree that some of the stuff may not be enforceable, and that you should both seek a lawyer to see what can be put in and what can't.
On my side, we had a prenup as well, and NY thankfully is not a community property state. Ours was both a prenup and a will, since neither of us has one yet and prenups can act as wills in the absence of one.
Almost everything that we have is in our name anyway, and most will be left to our future children. However, his debts and CS must be paid by him alone, as would mine (if I had any.)
We simply did it as anything everything will be clearly defined in either my name or his, and in the event that either of us dies in lieu of a will, everything will go to the surviving spouse BUT this spouse cannot sell or will the assets to anyone other than our children (as long as they're not assholes, or deadbeats, which is defined as either in school or a job and no arrest records or lack of moral conduct, in which case everything will go to a charity of our choice, or my sister/his brother.)
No alimony or spousal support from either (I have more assets but he earns more on paper). And if there are children, the CS will be determined at that time.
Anyway, it's a good idea, and if he's on board with it--go for it.