Fleas - Long, but worth it, I think... (SoVerySad - This is the blog that you inspired me to look up and write!)
I joined the website "Daughters of Narcisisstic Mothers" to see if I could get any information to help SD cope with some of her mother's behaviors, as well as to see if DH and my suspicions are right about BM. They have been very gracious and welcoming to me there. I feel very lucky to have been able to have their support when we took SD low contact with her mom. Anyway, I just came across this post and it was FANTASTIC. It was written by "Light" who is just so knowledgeable - and sweet and friendly! I sincerely think that some of you may be able to look at your Skids differently after reading this. It's written regarding narcissism, but since so many of our skids come from BM's that are unstable, I think it still applies. I know it helped me. Here it is...
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http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com
FLEAS FLEAS FLEAS
From time to time around here, you’ll hear people mention FLEAS. If you’ve never heard of them, here we go…
Let’s say you were raised by deaf parents. They had no problem when things crashed on the floor, making a horrible sound. They let you slam the door and they let the dog bark at night and had no problem with nails on a chalkboard. You could play your clarinet at all hours, so 11:00 PM was a fine time to practice.
And let’s say you turned 18 and went off to college and got a hearing roommate. She complained when you slammed your dresser drawers early in the morning when heading off to class as she slept in. The 11:00 clarinet didn’t go over so big, either. Sometimes you made a lot of noise and didn’t realize it.
Well, if someone paid close attention, they might think you were hard of hearing, wouldn’t they? I mean, you just didn’t seem to be aware of how much annoying noise you were causing. But you COULD hear – you were just raised in an environment that was shaped by deaf people, and that affected your behavior.
Well, FLEAS are a little like that. When you’re raised by a narcissist, you have to do things their way. There are house rules. No questioning. No expressing your needs. Accept the blame. Be a doormat. Criticism isn’t allowed. You come last, if at all. Play along. Put on the show they want. Be wrong. Suck up. Don’t be yourself. You’re a nobody.
All those “rules” hurt. And most importantly, like a glove or a shoe, these rules form the shape of the reason they exist. They take the shape of narcissism. In the home of a person with another PD – let’s say Obsessive-Compulsive PD, the shape would be very different. Your mother would be the type who couldn’t rest unless she did everything herself, even things you should have been allowed to do, like making your bed at 12. You’d make it, and she’d come in and tear it apart, making it all over again, because it just wasn’t good enough until SHE had done it. You’d put your stuffed animals away, but she’d have to come in and line them all up according to their size. You put them on the shelf the wrong way, and they needed fixing, so she couldn’t rest until that happened.
Now, you may not have NPD. Some children of narcissists do, and some don’t. Let’s say you don’t. But you were raised by someone with it. So you have some issues that can take the shape of NPD – like a shadow or a snow angel, or even an echo. You'll have some issues in the same sorts of areas that narcissism occupies, because you picked these fleas up FROM a narcissist.
Let's take just one possible example to illustrate...
Because of growing up with a narcissist, you’re used to being criticized to death, and for the tiniest thing, so when you graduate from your university and get a job, it may hurt to hear negative feedback about your work. Because you’ve never experienced healthy, well-intentioned and helpful input from others about how you’re doing, you only associate feedback with hatred and oppression and shame and rejection and attempts to violate your sensibilities – your dignity - your humanity. Feedback was always to make you the bad one - the wrong one.
Other people – people whose parents did not have NPD - give their children positive reinforcement and supportive feedback. Those people have learned to associate feedback with assistance - with helpful kindness. They won’t go to “crazy-land” like you will when they get their performance review. They will feel helped. You will feel attacked. They will feel curious. You will feel inadequate. They will feel openness. You will feel fear. They will say, “Thank you, I’ll work on that”. You will go home and cry.
And you probably do the only thing you’ve ever seen people do when they’re criticized – you get defensive and criticize right back. You have to, right? The person must be out to get you – that’s what feedback IS – a personal attack! So maybe you point the finger and refuse to hear them, or else, you’re going to be emotionally destroyed by them. You’ve seen that work.
And that looks like narcissism, doesn’t it? You’re not accepting input from others about what you could do better. You feel deeply ashamed that you haven’t been perfect – that’s what you’ve been taught – if you’re not perfect, you’re a piece of trash who has to take all the blame for everything that’s wrong, and all the blame for those who refuse responsibility.
But you don’t have NPD. What you have is the shadow – “maladaptive behaviors”, as psychologists call them. The unhelpful patterns you have been taught, and which you have had to resort all your life. And they are glued in, most often, by the shame you have been made to carry.
What you have is nicknamed “FLEAS”. They’re the bad behavior patterns and habits we picked up from living with a nutcase who had total and unhealthy control over us. They are the pain and guilt and crazy patterns we had to take on as children in order to just survive. And they’re completely un-learnable. (** Note: Later on as replies came in, Light amended this. She meant to say they ARE un-learnable, meaning you can change the behavior.)
One of the most common issues that newbies bring here is a tremendous fear that they have NPD themselves. It’s a perfectly understandable fear. All human beings do narcissistic things, and when DoNM’s who don’t have NPD recognize and acknowledge their own self-centered behaviors, they sometimes worry that they have NPD. They feel guilty about possibly having hurt someone's feelings, been self-centered, etc., and they panic. It can really be upsetting, even terrifying. And they beat themselves up mercilessly for it - because that's what they've been taught to do.
You’ll notice that I said, “DoNM’s who don’t have NPD”…
In order for someone to recognize, acknowledge and feel guilty about their own narcissistic behaviors, they first have to have a level of empathy and sense of emotional responsibility that narcissists, by definition, do not possess. On the DoNM forum, the usual response to such a person is, “If you’re that worried about the impact of your behavior on others, and you're willing to publicly share your fear of being NPD, trust us, you’re not NPD...You just have FLEAS."
"This article and more can be found at http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com
Copyright Light 2009, all rights reserved."
- Stick's blog
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deleted... too hard for me
deleted...
too hard for me to see all this stuff.
.
"Venting without the desire to look within and improve your situation is simply venting to hear yourself bitch."
..."I'm not mean, you're just a sissy."
"If they sold clues at Walmart,I'd be first in line to get one for DH" ~the lovely Jbee~
Sorry BBB - hope you are
Sorry BBB - hope you are okay.
*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***
no worries...i'm
no worries...i'm good.
"Venting without the desire to look within and improve your situation is simply venting to hear yourself bitch."
..."I'm not mean, you're just a sissy."
"If they sold clues at Walmart,I'd be first in line to get one for DH" ~the lovely Jbee~
Wow. Thanks for posting
Wow. Thanks for posting this, it explains a lot.
So where do you go if you
So where do you go if you read this description and you are afraid that you might be doing the same things to your kids? I mean, I feel like we have very strict house rules and expectations and I know that we are harder on our kids than a lot of our friends seem to be on theirs. But we DO give positive feedback, compliments and constructive criticism too. I just feel like I spend all of my time telling my kids what their not doing right. (Pick up your pajamas, why do I have to tell you this three times?; Put away your laundry; Eat over the table; Don't talk about farting at the dinner table.) Sometimes I feel like a crazy person because all I ever do is correct. I thought all mother's felt frustrated like this, but maybe I'm just overly harsh?
Constantly - I know how you
Constantly - I know how you feel. I am the same way with SD over here. "Don't chew with your mouth open. Don't swallow so that I can hear you when I am sitting 3 feet away from you (she gulps). " "You are old enough to clean your bathroom now."
What you are describing is correcting / learning behavior that are going to get your kids to be responsible adults.
Here's the "Fleas" that SD has, that I think she picked up from her mom. And what I am trying to help her correct. Some of it is "normal" teen behavior, and some of it is acerbated, I believe, from her mom's association.
1. SD constantly compares herself to others. For example, she'll come home and say what her class is doing and how much harder it is than what the "normal" kids do. (She's in a lot of advanced classes.) And I don't let her really get away with referring to herself as more advanced than normal. Does that make sense?
2. SD needs constant reassurance on her superficial qualities. For example, for a long time, right after she really blossomed, she used to come out for school in the morning, and say to her father "Don't I look pretty today daddy?" And of course, we want to let her know that yes, indeed, she is pretty, but that she shouldn't need to hear it every day, or ask for it. She should know it within herself, but not be vain. That's a tricky one and we had to be really careful how we handled it. Even recently, she had a teacher tell her that she had a pretty voice and she comes home and says to me.... "Well, it was nice to have a teacher say it because you don't let me sing anymore.".... And I corrected her and said.... "I don't let you sing whenever you just feel like it, and that includes in school, when we are all out watching tv, etc." (Kids have told her to be quiet in school because she just would sing and hum whenever she felt like it with no regard for what others were doing around her. She was doing the same thing at home. ) I also had to tell SD that yes, she does have a nice voice BUT I am not going to compliment her every day on it, or let her think that she can just make everyone else HEAR her. She has to respect other people's boundaries in school and at home. I also told her that I would compliment her every single time she told me when she did something that was selfless or good for someone else, or helped someone else. Because that's what is important.
3. SD still to this day feels the disapproval of her mom. So she is super-sensitive to any constructive criticism we give her, and we have to walk the line between telling her that she may need to hear a painful truth, without making her feel like her mom does.
4. SD used to be very lonely, and would want people to call her and have more friendships, but she wouldn't put herself out there. I think it's because the way her mom's family was - no one else was as good as them... and (b) SD was almost actively seeking out people like her mom's family and they would treat her poorly. She was having 1-sided friendships with kids who weren't giving back to her and then she was afraid to try. So we had to go through the whole thing of "if you want to have a friend, you have to BE a friend"....
At least, in my opinion, those are the types of fleas my SD has. Does that help distinguish for you?
Hey DPW! It is so good to
Hey DPW! It is so good to hear from you. I hope that you are doing well. How is the house sale going?
You could go over to that website and ask Light, or I could, if you would like, to see if she has any suggestions for unlearning the behaviors.
It is a very touching website, just like this one.
*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***
Stick - this was a great
Stick - this was a great post.
I am the daughter of a narcissist. I love my mother dearly, but she truly has been a driving force of pain in my life for as long as I can remember. My dad, while supportive, taught my 2 brothers and I to now rock the boat, which unfortunately taught us all to "placate" everyone around us. Both of my brothers married women much like my mother (demanding, controlling, manipulative, and mean if they don't get their way). My older brother committed suicide 3 years ago. Again, I love both of my parents and would never voice my feelings aloud, but I see BOTH their behaviors as contributing factors in his depression (not the only factors).
I think I was heading down the path of being a narcissist like my mother until one day my father asked me point blank if I wanted to be like her. I was shocked and embarrassed and have made a concentrated effort to look at people objectively and accept our differences and be responsible for myself and my actions. I am thankful for my father's seemingly simple question because I am one of the most responsible people I know (toot, toot). With lots of therapy, I have learned to set boundaries with my mother. She still tries to guilt me and rants at me when I won't behave the way she wants, but I've learned that she'll get over it. Turns out "rocking the boat" didn't have as bad an impact as we all thought! I've also coped and been able to not placate other people. Sometimes I feel bad about it, but I don't give in.
Wingnut is a narcissist. There is no doubt in my mind and both my therapist and dh's therapist agree. The amazing thing is that I can predict her behavior days before it happens because I was well-trained in. I predicted for the custody evaluator that she would come to him with a script and that if he doesn't play the role she has written for him, she'll get agitated and keep repeating her part until he complies. He was impressed with my insight. This is where I struggle so much with Creature. She emulates her mother. She wants to be just like her mother (I never did want to be my like my mother). I care enough about her to not want this kind of future for her and dh and I struggle with trying to teach her the proper way to behave, but I fear it is a losing fight because to Creature, mommy's life is much more fun so why try to be like daddy and soverysad. Right now, mommy spends money out the ass even though she doesn't work as hard, mommy has no rules, mommy treats people badly and everyone (except daddy and soverysad) kisses her butt (because they're afraid of the repercussions - which is why dh stayed with her for so long). So she connects mommy's irresponsibility and nastiness with the good life and daddy and soverysad's responsibility and kindness as the boring life with hard work and rules. I suspect as she gets older she'll recognize that she, too, is a target of the nastiness, but I am not sure she'll care (Wingnut's mother is a narcissist too) because she is nasty right back.
I "un-learned" a good part of my upbringing as far as not repeating certain patterns and recognizing that my mother is "sick" and not reflective of how the rest of the world treats me. Honestly, my dad was supportive in that, though he got a lot of flack from my mother, but really the "un-learning" was me insisting on doing things that made her mad even though she flipped out, tried to make me feel guilty, etc. I did things anyway and I dealt with the negative consequences (there were periods where she didn't speak to me for months on end and that hurt a lot). I still do sometimes, but my mom has learned that her childish behavior will result in my hanging up on her. My dh is "un-learning" living with Wingnut for 20 years. Hasn't been easy for him either, but we're stronger together and we made a decision together to not let other people put their "issues" on us. We both do therapy (separately) and spend time talking to our Pastor at church.
"A pessimist complains about the wind, an optimist counts on the wind changing, a realist adjusts his sails"
Also - when SD is old
Also - when SD is old enough, have her read "Malignant Self-Love" it was a great book defining this disorder and understanding it. I used to think "my own mother doesn't love me". She never said that, but that is how I felt through most of my life. Now I know better. I think she loves me as best as she can love, she is just so preoccupied with herself that she can't express it. My relationship with her has improved greatly since I learned to understand her.
"A pessimist complains about the wind, an optimist counts on the wind changing, a realist adjusts his sails"
Also - SoVery - thank you
Also - SoVery - thank you for the book suggestion. As soon as we have the greenlight to give SD info.. we are going to.
Right now, SD is not fully acknowledging her pain (her Therapist told us this). So, we have to wait to add on anything more. The therapist is concerned that she would take that info and use it as an excuse... which was curious to me.
*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***
Interesting comment about
Interesting comment about her using it as an excuse. Perhaps he feels she'll refuse to accept the pain and work through it and instead find in useful as a crutch as to why life is what it is (if that makes sense). I think it is sometimes "easier" to not accept the pain and lash out (maybe this is what she'd find the "excuse" useful for?) and repeat the behavior than to let yourself feel and move past it. I know that anger stems from fear and pain, so getting her to a point where she can recognize the pain (maybe too hard because she'd have to admit her mother's imperfections?) is key. sounds like you have a good therapist, which is a good thing.
"A pessimist complains about the wind, an optimist counts on the wind changing, a realist adjusts his sails"
SoVery - When you described
SoVery - When you described Creature, I just really thought of this post and wanted to share it with you.
Since that kid is only 5, she is definitely learning that behavior somewhere.
It's so sad, isn't it? It's like watching a crash you know is about to happen and not being able to stop it, or do as much about it as yu can.
I'm so glad that you and DH have each other... and that your father was such a supportive influence for you.
Since Creature is so young, I'm not quite sure how you can help her, to be honest. I would suggest you maybe taking a "walk" over to that website and seeing if it can help you at all.
One thing that I have learned about children of narcissists and you have confirmed for me, is that there is a lot of pain there, driving the behaviors. I have difficult feeling sorry for BM over here because she is an adult, and I believe that we all have the strength and opportunities to change as we grow. So when SD's therapist tells me that BM has a lot of emotional pain.... My response is always, "Yes, but she is bringing some of that pain onto herself. When is she going to take personal responsibility for her own pain?" So, I do understand how tough it can be all around.
Thanks so much for reading this! I really hope that Creature grows out of her issues. I just feel like she is in for a long, hard life if she doesn't.
*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***
Yeh, we heard from therapist
Yeh, we heard from therapist (not our individual ones) that Wingnut was in pain and suffering "trauma". Whatever, I can't help that she didn't learn to cope and that her parents shielded her from disappointment until she was 43 and now she can't cope with it. I laugh now when she complains that her parents are too old / sick to help her. I just think, they created you and they'll deal with it because it isn't my problem or dh's problem. The funny thing is, I look at her life and I would be sympathetic in other circumstances. I mean she spent 43 years of being a "princess", she had a cushy life staying home, doing nothing, spent a ton of money on herself every week, etc and then the bottom fell out. So I can see why she is pissed and blames dh, but for her to say she is "traumatized". She has no idea what real "trauma" is. While I am devastated by the events of my brother's death and the loss of my child (and speak of it often), I am not blaming the world and treating people like crap because I've been dealt a rough hand.
As for Creature - we're doing our best. We compliment good behavior. We ignore bad behavior as much as we can and we correct what needs correcting. We let her choose as often as we can and dh is great about connecting her behavior to what kind of day she has. So if she says "daddy, I like when we did blah, blah, blah", he responds with "well, we can do more nice things together if we all take on our responsibility so we all have time and if we all behave appropriately" or "we were able to do that because you did x, y and z today". We also try to address "behavior" and "listening skills" vs. "you're this or you're that" and we talk about feelings and validate them. For example, when he canceled daddy time last night, he explained why and about how she hurt someone else's feelings and now her feeling's were hurt AND how it is okay for her to have feelings. He even told her "I understand that sometimes it is uncomfortable to do certain things in front of mommy, but mommy is an adult and she needs to accept you for who you are and you should want to be nice". He even forces her to hug him in front of her mother. At first it was awkward and she was afraid and didn't want to do it because it "makes mommy sad / mad", but he told her it wasn't fair for her to expect him to hug her whenever she wanted but then snub him to please mommy. She does it now without hesitation, so I am hoping we're making progress.
"A pessimist complains about the wind, an optimist counts on the wind changing, a realist adjusts his sails"
This is really really
This is really really insightful, and not only about my SS, lol.
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Thanks for this posting... It
Thanks for this posting... It clarifies a lot of stuff for me. I know, it's old but I was doing as you suggested & reading through your old blogs
This is why I feel like I am constantly correcting SD and then in turn constantly questioning myself on it. Because I am by any definition a daughter of a narcissistic mother, and I have some old fleas still clinging to me too. (Especially the criticism one... I have gone so far as to resign a good job over that one, and still feel abject hatred for the boss who I felt didn't value me... It's illogical but I cannot logic it away.)
I have to walk a thin line and I think I often err on the side of lax parenting rather than overly harsh -- Just because I don't want to be my mother.
Stepsoftly - I think because
Stepsoftly - I think because you are reaching out, and not just thinking you are right means you are NOT narcissistic!
My husband tells his daughter (my SD) all the time... You learn a lot of things from your parents. Some of them are how you want to be, and a lot of it is exactly how you DON'T want to be. That's how we ALL are! (His example is smoking. Both of his parents chain smoke and DH has never and will never smoke because he didn't want to do that to his kids. On the other side is that his parents encouraged him and let him explore his artistic nature.)
The Wicked One - This is
The Wicked One - This is EXACTLY right. We cannot be "victims" of our environment. I HATE HATE HATE THE VICTIM MENTALITY!! (Sorry for yelling, but it drives me crazy.) SD used to really play the victim, but has gotten much better over the past year. I don't really hear that from her anymore. She is now taking more responsibility for her own actions.