I'll tell you what the counselor said
Just to let you all know if you're wondering... After my DH told the kids to "get a ride" and go home to their mom's he went to see their counselor. Here is what he said:
First he was flabbergasted. He couldn't believe the things the kids (mostly SD) was doing and saying. He then said that girls her age in divorced situations have been known to behave like she does, however, he feared it was too far gone to be resolved. He suggested that we only have visitation with the SS. He advised DH to stay in touch with SD by phone and email. Because, even though she may be the one deciding she doesn't want to see her Dad, kids forget about that and still feel abandoned, later claiming their dad was never there.
The counselor felt that the BM actions whether intended or not were influencing the opinions and attitudes of the SD and that BM needed to play a different role, primarily co-parent with DH. He said that although, he had seen the kids a few times, they stopped coming. That didn't surprise us really. The kids don't display some of this behavior at her house so she doesn't believe there are problems at all. But if the counselor is stunned by their behavior I think it is a part of who they are even if she doesn't see it.
So finally the counselor said he would call BM and try to get DH and her together to see how they can work together to heal these kids or at least help them develop normally. I hope 13 isn't too late.
My take, is that the SD has absorbed the feelings the BM has towards my DH and is taking it out on her Dad. I really worry that she will never have a healthy relationship with a man. BM says she has positive role models, ie her sister and friends, but if her mother isn't modeling it, I don't know how she will really learn it.
I don't want to blame BM, I know she believes she is doing everything in the best interest of her kids. She says that all the time. The problem is that sometimes no matter what we say or do, the way we feel is what is being taught and learned.
So, I'm kind of relieved. We'll see what happens next. I'm open to the SS coming, he usually only does what his sister says. Hopefully without her around, the poor treatment towards my daughter will stop and we can get to know and love him too.
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Divorce Poison
Is a great book by Dr. Richard Warshak. The key we learned through counseling and reading this book is that the PAS BM will always say that she is acting in the best interest of the kids. E.g., I tried but it's not my fault that the kids do not want to come over to your house.....
Excerpt:
"A child who feels caught between two homes may feel that the solution to the conflict is to declare a clear allegiance to one household. ...." "... if the the favored parent welcomes the child's allegiance and fails to actively promote the child's affection for the other parent, the child may cling to this maladaptive solution."
"It is bad enough when a parent acts as though the other parent's participation in the child's life is unwelcome. Even worse is when a parent suggests that it is permissible, even desirable, to exploit the other parent. It is very common for parents to support their child's rejection of the other parent while encouraging the children to ask for money from the hated parent. The children are taught to feel entitled to money and favors from the parent they otherwise reject."
So much good stuff in this book!!
Our ex wife claimed that she could not help it if the kids do not want to be here... I said yes you can. You say, He is your father. You are going. If you have things you need to discuss with him then you need to do so. Someday you may regret not having a relationship with him. Now is the time to try and build one. Of course she said that it was not her responsibility, I told her it was. AND I boldly told her it was not motherly to project her hatred of DH on to her kids.. that is called abuse... [insert a whole lot of yelling back and forth] well they come over and their relationships are growing.
If you need to build one relationship at a time.. go for it.. Maybe SD will feel left out and come aboard.
Yikes
"It is very common for parents to support their child's rejection of the other parent while encouraging the children to ask for money from the hated parent. The children are taught to feel entitled to money and favors from the parent they otherwise reject."
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This is exactly the situation my DH faced with his kids. They want nothing to do with him, will not speak with him, email him, nothing, yet they expect all the extras from their dad. He has, however, made it clear to them that since they want nothing to do with him, the only thing he is going to do from now on is pay support and that's it. The BM was upset about it for awhile but now he hardly ever hears from her either. My DH wasn't perfect when the kids were younger (neither was their BM), but my DH is far from the same person he was back then. They won't even give him the slightest benefit of the doubt, but they stick up for her no matter what.
Holy shit
That's it. It makes total sense. I've felt so badly blaming BM. I haven't ever been able to make sense of any of this. You said it exactly. That is exactly what is happening. It just clicked. Now to fix it. Thank you soooooooo much for taking time to share this with me.
Holy shit
You are welcome!! My therapist introduced me to the term, I googled and said Holy shit... I think we are on to something.. I ordered the book via Amazon and I tell you it is well thumbed and highlighted from here to there... the book not only describes scenarios and symptoms.. it provides strategies.
My DH has read it piece meal.. I have obsessively read it and try to apply the strategies.. my life is getting a little better, his is not. Thus mine could be waaaaay better. It is frustrating when I see it working with me and he panders to them... but hey... a little improvement is better than none.
BTW I do not think 13 is too late. We have been together nearly six years; married and living together for 2.5. When I found this book last year.. SD was 15.
One of the very first changes we made was NO MORE using the kids as interpretors. Parents talk to each other. No more mom wants this- dad wants this.. This made a HUGE difference. In fact the SS said thank you... he did not want to be in the middle. [SS on phone with mom, mom say tell your father..., Dad say give me the phone.. mom hung up, dad sends email... please do not discuss our business with the kids, if you need something contact me directly or you will not receive a response.] Whenever she would go back to old ways the skids would just hand the phone over and say here talk to dad. If given permission the kids DO NOT want to be in the middle.
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Civil dialogues...
Let me say this about that... our ex wife is as belligerent as they come... last year this time I had hives all over my body, popping xanax, eye and muscle twitching. I called BM over to my house for a chit chat [ I had just completed reading the book and decided if DH wouldn't take the bitch, I mean bull by the horns.. I would.] It started out professional, it ended with her walking out on me with me saying you can hang up, or walk out like you always do but you still take your shit with you. [it was ugly] She immediately called DH and said your wife is crazy and needs help. LOLOLOL.
The day after OMG, my body looked like I had the measles, I kid you not. I HAVE NOT HAD ONE SINGLE HIVE SINCE THEN. As far as I am concern that alone was worth the wasted dialogue. My DH had said no one has ever stood up to her before. I said she has met her f@#$%^& match with me!! Things have simmered down and now we actually get along---better.
Instead of ignoring her PAS ways, I confronted her and let her know I would not put up with them. If she is threatened by me then she had better step up to plate and act like a mother. [that didn't go over too well] But hey, the way I see it. We can have conflict and be suppressed and let her rule my roost or we can have conflict and stand my ground, eventually she will not be up for the fight...
I still have an occasional eye twitch but no xanax or hives whoo hooo.
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Confrontation has never worked for us
For the longest time, my DH would call BM out on her antics. He emailed everything to her, tried to talk to her and brought it up in counseling, (they only went twice) She would always deny everything he accused her of. Even when it was so obvious or proven. Like taking the kids to Mexico without his approval over Christmas because it interfered with his visitation. Then keeping them there longer than was dictated in the decree and not returning phone calls or letting him talk to his kids on X-mas. When she couldn't deflect she would ignore. DH lawyer says it is really difficult to prove PAS. After reading the exerts from Divorce Poison, I am convinced I need to get this book for DH. Hopefully it has good suggestions to help us.
Your Lawyer is Right
It is hard to prove PAS, it's the word syndrome that is disputed. But the effects are real and the book is resourceful. For each section of the book there is take action advice. Some of the advice is for very severe cases but there is plenty of help for milder cases. The most helpful parts profile the alienating parent and provide suggestions for dealing with them. E.g., Make them feel valued (they have an excessive self importance) So when we had SD's promotion party I called BM and asked if she would like to take part in the planning.. No she says, she was never asked if it was okay to have the party (at our home?) I replied, oh what a shame, i know SD would be proud to have you-her mom and your side of the family here. I was hoping that you could bake something since I can't bake to save my life. She said I'll get back to you.. didn't. On the party date, she arrived with her blue ribbon brownies.
I've done a few of these make her feel important tactics and she revels in them. I gag, because I only wish that she would actually parent her kids when she has them 50/50.
On post note.. she would never admit PAS, but just the other day SD came home and made reference that BM is fed up with new husband he is a lazy bum that lays around all day, and that I should be happy the DH does stuff around the house. According to SD, BMs DH used to walk on water. Hmmm, they got married and now he is step parenting and clamping down on BM passive parenting. HMMMM why is BM badmouthing her new husband to her BD?