Coronavirus and Coparenting
What is everyone doing about exchanging their children? Are the primary parents keeping the children? I've kept my BS and my ex has threatened contempt same with his attorney. My said I should comply with the order but I don't want to mess around with this virus especially with someone I don't trust
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Oh boy, here we go.
Oh boy, here we go.
There are some on this board who feel kids should not be exchanged; however, actual experts are not saying it's necessary to stop visitation, and as far as the law is concerned, you are in contempt of the court order.
And by the way, you don't own your child. If he kept the kid from you for the same reason, would you be okay with that?
N, I wouldn’t be.
There are other issues going on as we are waiting for awaiting trial and he has a child endangerment for drinking and driving and crashing with my son in the car. Court is takin gun forever I don't even belive my son should be with him.
We have SS simply because BM
We have SS simply because BM won't get his work done and I'm off anyway. You are on contempt though and shouldn't try and keep both of yalls child away from him because of how you feel. Unless BD has done something to warrant those feelings toward his child (not you) then it's not your choice
If your state has 'shelter in
If your state has 'shelter in place' and your child is with you, you may have some legal cover. Otherwise, you are most likely illegally withholding.
I wonder if, when this is over, pandemics will be covered in new child custody agreements.
Tog is right, actual experts
Tog is right, actual experts in the US have not said to stop following the court orders, in the UK the message has been less clear. They’ve also put us on lockdown, closed all children’s parks & playgrounds, sent everyone who is not an essential worker home, closed daycares & nurseries to everyone except a very select few of all essential workers, and even among the essential workers requiring childcare only allowing those who have no one at home who could care for the kids, have limited outdoor exercise to once a day and we are not allowed to drive anywhere for the purpose of exercise, we can only excercise alone or with people from our households, all face to face meetings of groups larger than 2 people are no longer allowed, police are pulling people over to question them on where they are going, grocery stores and pharmacies have queues out the door & are operating on a 1 in 1 out policy, and fines are being given to anyone who breaks these rules.
People need to really consider how important sticking to the CO is right now, pixie dust and skid unicorn farts will not prevent transmission between child and parent, or between the parents homes. It is not my opinion that passing kids between homes increases the chances of transmission, it’s simple common sense. Sure, everyone has rights, but we also have a moral responsibility to keep everyone as safe as possible, including our children. I would hope people would especially want to keep their children safe, but many feel sticking to the CO is more important than that. I fail to see how continuing doing visitation as normal is any safer than inviting a friend over for a play date. But that’s just me, an armchair epidemiologist, apparently.
Well, again, if the experts
Well, again, if the experts don't say it's necessary, then yes, it's just your opinion. But at this point, the law says she has to follow the CO, and I doubt the judge will say that she can withhold the child based on the opinions of people on Steptalk.
Monkeysee, I really respect your opinion the bulk of the time - but this really is just your opinion and the law and infectious disease apparently aren't on the same page with you.
So it's really not fair to essentially accuse the rest of us of being stupid and lacking common sense for not agreeing with you.
Then I’m not being fair, and
Then I’m not being fair, and it is what it is. I genuinely do not, cannot, and refuse to understand HOW it is different, physiologically, to pass children from house to house between divorced parents than it is to pass them between neighbours or friends.
I am not repeating myself endlessly because I think I am smarter than anyone else. I am repeating myself endlessly because I’m hoping that if enough people voice their concerns with following the CO at the moment it will make a difference in at least one family. Perhaps one more family will reconsider what’s important for them & make alternate arrangements.
Personally, I think the courts are failing families, they always have been, and it’s no different now. This is a very complex time and even the experts are grasping to understand the best ways forward. In the most basic terms, less transmission is better for everyone, I think we can agree on that. I, again, fail to see how passing kids around is somehow excempt from this, as it’s a physiological issue, stepfamilies are not any safer than intact families when it comes to this virus.
I respect your opinion and advice the vast majority of the time on this site, but I don’t agree with you on this one either. We, as human beings, need to be looking at a much larger picture than our own individual circumstances until this has passed. IMHO.
You advise breaking the law?
So your opinion is that the judges are wrong. The CDC is wrong. The govenment is wrong. They are all uninformed and making stupid decions. We should all therefore assume that we know best, and do exactly what we want and to *(* with the Court Orders and the advice of people with cooler heads and actual medical degrees who have looked at this. Because YOU "fail to see" their logic, understanding, and actual educated opinon.
And to further that, your advice to strangers on the internet is to break the law and disregard the CO. Despite the fact that (not in this case, but other cases), there may be a long history of alienation. Many examples of frustrating contact...and this could be the straw that the judge looks at and says - you cannot be trusted to respect and value the emotional contriubtion of the other parent. Despite doctors telling you to do so, you felt you knew better. And you think that's going to go well!?
You said it best when you said I "REFUSE" to understand. Yup, that about sums it up. If you can't find a solution that allows both parents to parent, children to be emotionally supported by the people they need in crisis. If you insist that you are smarter than every professional because YOU fail to understand, then by all means - declare yourself the smartest person in the room and advise people to ignore the law. I do wish you would instead spend some time thinking about HOW to abide by the law rather than advising people to flout it!
In this case - there's a lot more going on than COVID, and I wish the Mom luck in getting an expedited trial to get it settled on all the facts.
When have I said to break the
When have I said to break the law, if people are being court ordered to continue visitation then they should. If both parents are reasonable, sane, and can come to an agreement outside of court, then they should suspend or limit visitation.
Can you explain to me, physiologically, how passing children between divorced homes is any safer than passing them between neighbours or friends?
What I refuse to understand is how it’s physiologically different for skids than it is for everyone else. Can you explain it? I am not saying people should break the law, I’m saying people should reconsider their visitation and find alternate arrangements with their exes. Not every divorced family has alienating exes who are using this as an excuse to alienate their children. There ARE sane people out there who are doing everything they can to keep their families and communities safe, including suspending their visitation and keeping in touch in other ways.
Sadly we all know cases when
Sadly we all know cases when family courts make asinine decisions endangering children big time (we see on this site how people get treated unfairly by the court system). It happens all the time. Yes we absolutely must follow the law but that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge that the court system sucks and in some cases try to challenge it/ask for exemptions/ try to talk some sense into these people. Judges aren't gods and we aren't sheep.
And in cases where both
And in cases where both parents are sane and don’t need a court to tell them what to do, simply make alternate arrangements for themselves that keep their children as safe as possible.
Yep
My son and I have very bad asthma and we have dry coughs and runny nose. The other children have come over with fevers and I've stressed that they cannot come over anymore. So now I'm worried we will get fevers. I know not every symptom deems coronavirus and I'm not trying to argue on who's right and wrong. I was curious about what others were doing. There are other issues at play here and if the courts didn't take so long my son would most likely be with me. His father is an abuser, manipulated typical bad ex with a domestic on his new girlfriend and has my child at his fathers every weekend who is supposedly sone one who has raped him ( my sons father) when he was younger and worried about the grandpa raping our now son. So yeah there are a lot of things at play and in the mix the skids still have to come around and mom doesn't even let us know of the symptoms.
.... You all have been very helpful and the responses were amazing quick! Thanks ladies
I’m so sorry you have all of
I’m so sorry you have all of that stress & concerns to deal with for your son.
So your ex is awaiting trial
So your ex is awaiting trial for child endangerment because he drives drunk and crashed a car with your child in there but your question is if your kid should go there because of the pandemics? Not sure I understand the situation. Are these two separate issues?
Why does he even have unsupervised visitations and can you get full emergency custody because of child endagerement? I am so sorry your child has to be in these dangerous situations. What a mess.
I just saw that your son has asthma and currently has dry cough and runny nose. I am so sorry.
I hope it's nothing major but people with these symptoms should not be leaving the house. They must stay isolated inside and not leave the house or have visitors. They might spread the virus
Now some people on this site believe that dad's rights trump everything and it violates dads rights if you don't immediately produce a child upon request, never mind that he is sick or there is pandemics going on
sadly as we know family court system sucks. So I'd not be surprised they might order some asinine things
Why do you keep reducing the
Why do you keep reducing the argument to "dad's rights"? The argument is that NO expert and NO legal body says visitation between homes should stop.
Because someone, I think it
Because someone, I think it was maybe you, said that dad is entitled to see the kids so he must see them no matter what. And not letting him see the kids is taking away his rights. Wasn't about regular times, was about during shut down due to pandemics
I don't have enough for a
I don't have enough for a protection order! How in believable is that!!! Mind you He had his girlfriend impersonate me so she could bring him home when asked where mom was. No one knew I exsisted until DHHS got involved. She had to tease arch the files to find my name... even though I am primary and am court ordered to make final decisions.
This was one of the FAQs
This was one of the FAQs about my state's Stay at Home order.
Now, this is just the quick answer. And "essential assistance" could include visitation to some. BM didn't say anything more when DH sent that to her. BM is the CP but DH and I both know that she wanted to get SD out of her hair. We actually visited SD yesterday; we stayed in the car and SD on the sidewalk. She apparently mentioned something about DH being on BM's sh!t list (didn't use that phrase though). Oh well. If BM is going to allowed SD to have friends over and SD is going to brag about not social distancing herself, we're not going to take the risk
This OP still has to follow
This OP still has to follow the court order. Exception would be ncp and op agrees to working things out amongst themselves.
Suggesting that op should NOT follow a court order is ill-advised.
Op's ex may file contempt charges and my easily win. It happened in Georgia recently. CP "MOM" told dad he could not have kids during his scheduled visitation because she was worried about corona virus. Sound familiar?
Turns out mom took kids to play soccer with groups of people???. Someone called dad. Dad showed UP the kids ran to dad, all happy to see him. Kids jumped in dads car.... Mom pitched a fit, Mom caused a HUGE scene, police were called, mom arrested. Dad now has temp order of custody. Judge said he expects more of the same.
Issues you wrote about are troublesome BUT should have been addressed way before this exchange your worried about. Of course if dads DUI JUST happened and dads no fire arms JUST HAPPENED a few days ago.
I get it...the corona virus is serious. Make a plan with your ex.
Her kid is sick. People who
Her kid is sick. People who exhibit symptoms like dry cough and runny nose and are high risk in addition to it (asthma) are told to stay home so not to infect others/not get infected themselves. Are you saying she shouldn't follow governors and Presidents orders and should let sick kid to leave the house? That's why numbers are so high in the US. People refuse to stay home the way they were told by the government
I think we all agree that if
I think we all agree that if the child is indeed sick then he needs to stay home. Mom will need to prove this to justify her actions. If the kid is sick and she thinks he has the virus then he needs to see a doctor. She can get a print out of their visit with his diagnosis and forward it to her lawyer and his lawyer. Mom still needs to allow the kid to Factime/call/Skype dad while this is being worked out. Visitation will also have to be made up at a later date if kid is really sick.
No one is being seen by a
No one is being seen by a doctor now if they suspect they have a virus.
If you are unbearably sick, then you go to the hospital. If you can manage, you are required to stay home isolated.
If you don't feel better in 7 days then you go to the hospital.
My DD and her fiancée are sick and it's suspected to be corona. Doctor told them they cannot be seen in the clinic. If they aren't getting better in 7 days or develop serious breathing problem they have to go to the hospital where they'll be tested and admitted. Otherwise stay inside isolated. No one should randomly show up to see doctors. Most doctors won't see no one with suspected corona.
Are you saying she herself with cough and her sick child have to go a clinic and infect other people? So they can prove to dad that they are sick?
Why aren't people reading and educating themselves on the matter? That's why our numbers are so high. People refuse to understand the whole concept of staying isolated if they feel sick and staying at home even if healthy. They keep going around spreading virus
no judge will put people in jail for following infectious control and government guidelines during pandemics and keeping children at home.
yes I previously suggested Skyping and face timing with kids and make up parenting time later. It's fair alternative during pandemics
It seems like there should
It seems like there should have been an emergency custody hearing if your ex got a DUI and crashed with his kid. Unless the crash happened in the past few weeks there's no reason an emergency hearing could not have been set. If visitation has been ordered then you need to follow the CO. Since you are withholding you are the one in violation. Your ex could request an emergency hearing, maybe they're doing it by phone now I don't know. Thing is that tables can be turned and you could be arrested or fined. You won't be of much use to your kid in jail. Withholding him only shows the courts that you don't respect the courts authority are unable/unwilling to allow him to have a relationship with his father.
You said that he is abusive but you don't have enough for a protective order. All you have to do is feel threatened by someone and a two week temporary order will be issued until there is a hearing to get a longer one.
The virus has not halted parental visitation anywhere here in the US. People chiming in from other countries need to realize that many things are decided at a state level here. People are still working, shopping, out walking the dog...etc. If you and your child are having COVID-19 symptoms then you need to get see a doctor immediately and ask to be tested. If you are awaiting test results this is a legitimate reason not to shuttle the boy between homes. Remember that you will have to justify your actions before the court at some point. It sounds like your son was visiting his father before the virus. It would be wise to continue the visitation schedule. I can only imagine the mess of contempt cases COVID-19 will bring to the courts because one parent used it withhold the kids.
Her child is high risk with
Her child is high risk with asthma and currently has dry cough and runny nose. People with asthma are high risk even if he hopefully doesn't have the virus. But sure let's take him places.
And no one is testing no one for virus right now unless you are admitted to the hospital, which you have to either be sick for over 7 days or have to have severe breathing problem. Otherwise you are to stay home isolated.
Thank you! We are in a place
Thank you! We are in a place where we have gotten hung up on by providers when asking if we can come in. My spouse has gone in with an actual concern with his lungs and they wouldn't test him. At this point idc because it's been almost a year since the car accident with my son and his father probably 6 months from him being charged with child endangerment and 8,000 some odd dollars later and still no damn court date. So looks like it's up to me to keep my son safe because no one else cares. The people who are taking this lightly are the problem like my spouses BM I'm so upset with her I'm about to message her myself each weekend the children have been here with at least one symptom we get them because BM doesn't mention anything.... I just wonder when life gets easier....
What a mess. That's what I am
What a mess. That's what I am saying. You can't go see doctors to test for corona, it's just not being done. It's funny to me how people insist on it. So naive
yup people who are taking it lightly are a problem. Major problem. They either refuse to educate themselves on the severity of the issue or are too hung up on their sense of entitlement. The whole world looks at us with bewilderment. We aren't going to reach a peak of the curve until people start following some kind of common sense.
Keep your family safe
Since the kid is sick and at
Since the kid is sick and at high risk with asthma, I'm sure she'll have no problem proving this to a judge when they ask why she withheld visitation. It sounds like her husband with issues and visiting skids will be a risk to the kid too. Maybe he'd be safer at his dads. Guess the parent who "knows best" gets to pick his poison.
Sure. Maybe he'd be safer
Sure. Maybe he'd be safer with dads full time. No ways for us to know. Dad isn't posting here. No ways to know if he even wants his kid full time, she never mentioned him bringing that up. All we know that it's unsafe to go back and forth for healthy children, let alone the ones with asthma and cold/flu symptoms. We can speculate of course that he should move to his dad full time.
Physics professor at the
Physics professor at the university of Virginia explaining the math of social distancing and how *every* interaction has an exponential affect.
https://news.virginia.edu/content/physics-professor-lou-bloomfield-expla...
Please note, I am not advising people to break the law. However, in situations where people are sane an interested in doing their part to stop the spread, this is why visitation should not be the priority right now. This is why I’ve been saying the math doesn’t lie. The math of social distancing doesn’t exclude stepfamilies, it is for everyone. Every single time we interact with people outside our households we are not only risking our lives, but the lives of other people exponentially.
If parents are HC, there’s alienation happening, or abuse & neglect, I understand this is a much more difficult scenario & people need to make their decisions based on what’s best for their families. But for many families with sane, rational parents, I hope they can find an alternative solution & teach their children that sometimes life is hard & we all need to do things right now for the benefit of everyone.
I am not, and have not ever been talking about legalities. This is math. The virus is phisiological. It doesn’t care if your parents are divorced or not, the exponential affect following social interaction will happen irregardless.
Yes!
Yes. Thank you for posting. Yes it's growing exponentially. That's why social distancing and isolation are extremely important. For everyone. Especially people with high risk. Or people with suspicious symptoms.
“From a statistical point of view, every time you keep your distance from others during this crisis, you are saving lives,” and this should be a priority. Saving lives. Stop spreading the disease. Safety and health of children and adults. That's a priority. People need to educate themselves and stop going out and about unless it's absolute necessity. No need to be stupid
Yes dads' rights and entitlement to see the kids during regular visitation time is important. But in time of pandemics it can't possibly trump everyone's safety and life. Unless we want to spend another 6 months watching it spread. We need to all make an effort to stop it.
Exactly. It’s driving me
Exactly. It’s driving me insane that people are saying ‘well the CDC hasn’t said to stop visitation so it must be ok’. Does the CDC have the right to overrule court orders? I have no idea, my guess is no, so they need to be careful with how they word their statements. They can’t blatantly tell people to break the law, but it doesn’t change the math. This is not my opinion, just as I have been saying, it’s math.
As morbid as this is, emotional well-being shouldn’t even factor into whether or not parents choose to exercise visitation right now (saving, again, for extreme cases where abuse, alienation or neglect is present). I’m pretty sure a child will forgive a parent for not seeing them for a short period of time when it’s explained to them *why* it was done. I can imagine that child’s emotional well-being would suffer a great deal more in the long run if one (or heaven forbid both) of their parents were to sadly pass away because they contracted this virus instead of limiting the transmission as much as possible. These are real possibilities, as sad as that may be to think about.
Correct. Missing a visitation
Correct. Missing a visitation is way less detrimental for everyone involved than possibility of contracting and spreading the virus and possibly dying. Sadly people who argue for continuing passing kids back and forth despite shut down directive didnt even argue that it's in kids' interest.
Main argument was that dads are entitled to see the kids during shut down and it doesn't matter who gets endangered in the process. I don't know any sane parent who feels this way irl. It's just not normal logic. Normal people don't feel that their rights are more important than everyone's safety, especially their children's. Any decent parent would worry about their children safety way more than about their own entitlement
hopefully common sense prevails, people read directives and research and start taking this virus seriously
I completely agree. I cannot
I completely agree. I cannot believe kids going back and forth hasn't been shut down.
Another expert perspective
An expert perspective from an epidemiologist at Yale who essentially explains that the only way for social distancing to actually have the desired impact is for individual households to reduce any contact outside their households. When individuals in a household mix they are exposing everyone in their household to whatever outside people they interacted with. In my view, divorced families are two separate households. Epidemiologists are not commenting on custody swaps because that is not their unit of measurement and likely doesn't fit into their framework of analysis. I understand that HC parents can use this situation to their advantage, but I also think that whenever you are dealing with a HC parent you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I also realize that judges may decide that parents broke the agreement if they push to not swap children, but I also think that HC parents will raise holy h$ll if a child comes down with the virus after visitation even if the other parent doesn't have the virus. I also think that judges may have to suspend judgment on these sorts of things during this unprecedented time. I think we all have a moral obligation to do what we can to stop the spread of this virus, especially those of us in heavily impacted areas. I also think that each household has the right to make decisions that best meet their needs, especially if they have no visibility into the risk of exposure in the other household.
https://elemental.medium.com/hold-the-line-17231c48ff17
"Second, although social distancing measures have been (at least temporarily) well received, there is an obvious-but-overlooked phenomenon when considering groups (i.e. households) in transmission dynamics. While social distancing decreases contact with members of society, it of course increasescontact within a group (i.e. family). This small and obvious fact has surprisingly profound implications on disease transmission dynamics. The basic mechanics of this mathematical principledictate that even if there is only a little bit of additional connection between groups (i.e. social dinners, playdates, unnecessary trips to the store, etc.), the epidemic likely won’t be much different than if there was no measure in place. The same underlying fundamentals of disease transmission apply, and the result is that the community is left with all of the social and economic disruption but very little public health benefit.
You should perceive your entire family to function as a single individual unit: If one person puts themselves at risk, everyone in the unit is at risk. Seemingly small social chains get large and complex with alarming speed. If your son visits his girlfriend, and you later sneak over for coffee with a neighbor, your neighbor is now connected to the infected office worker that your son’s girlfriend’s mother shook hands with. This sounds silly, it’s not. This is not a joke or hypothetical. We as epidemiologists see it borne out in the data time and time again. Conversely, any break in that chain breaks disease transmission along that chain."
Monkeysee----I totally hear
Monkeysee----I totally hear what you are saying.
Parents are required to follow their court orders. BUT parents are also expected to make wise decisions for their kids.
I know that my ex husband and I would have both agreed "NO" exchanges. NO NO NO exchanges. Just stay put--Thankfully that is how we would have figured it out.
Dynamics post divorce are strangly difficult for manyl lasting for some, until they die.. High conflict parents have mental health issues, we can not forget that. Far too many are un-checked. Adding more conflict to heated situations. Now add this awful awful virus.
Its a mess.
I hope parents can work thru this and keep kids in one spot. As difficult as if may be.
Excellent post
Excellent post
I cannot tell you how much
I cannot tell you how much anxiety I have with the kids going back and forth. I know the kids are still hanging out w their friends outside. I have zero control what happens at BM, but I'm supposed to let germ vectors in my home during a pandemic. SO much anxiety. #steplifeSUCKS
To be clear - the kids are at
To be clear - the kids are at bm when the are w friends. No way that going on here.
That's terrifying
That's terrifying
Same situation
I'm in the same situation. DH is immune compromised and he went to the grocery store last week and saw SS hanging out with six friends. BM also "went away" for the two weekends prior to the shutdown in our state and BM's husband and stepson work retail.
Fortunately, DH raised the issue and BM agreed that maybe SSs shouldn't come to our house. Then two days later she pitched a fit because Skids are driving her crazy and she wants to get rid of them. She told DH he would owe her extra child support if he didn't take Skids EOWE.
I’m really glad your DH told
I’m really glad your DH told your BM no on this one, and stood his ground when she pitched her fit.
I'm right there with you! I'm
I'm right there with you! I'm considering messaging her myself with my concerns and reminding her it isn't forever but not everyone can be mature and take that message well so I probably won't end up doing that.
He is 8 and we have thought
He is 8 and we have thought about what we could use to send over that is some th omg I will look into. I'm really sorry you had to deal with all of that. I would have been a mess and it's so sad that is all they did to him when she will be recovering for a huge part of her life. I wish the best for you two this stuff is very very tough to deal with.