Having a really bad nigh
Every thing was going fine. I have been 100 % disengaged from Toxic SD. I have felt so much better.
Dh went to see her and her spawn yesterday. I did not know. So today he tells me that he asked her to apologize to me. He did this last Christmas also. She gave him a card to give me that said she forgives me. So she said to him that she already apologized.
So I told DH to stop doing that. Leave me out of it. I do not want an apology from her. It would mean nothing. She is a narcissist. I will not be pulled back into this. So he tells me he wants me to be able to be around grandspawn. That he feels guilty when he goes and I am not there. So he says if he can get SD to apologize will I accept it. No I will not!!!! It is too late!!! I will not fall into this narcisstic trap again. So he says well how about we sit down with a mediator with her. I do not want or will be in the same room with her ever again. Why would I go to mediation with a narcissist! I would just be setting my self up to be abused again. I dont know why DH can’t just leave it alone. Why does he have to trigger all my emotions back up again!!!!All my feelings of self doubt all came boiling up again. I already have COPD from all her 15 years of abuse. Enough!!! She can take any apology he thinks he can get her to say and shove up her a&&! She is a narcissist if she did apologize it will not be real. I will not fall into this trap!!!!!
So now DH added to it . He
So now DH added to it . He told SD that if she gives him a Christmas present that she better put my name on it and make it for both of us. I don’t want anything from her!!! She would only do it so she can say to DH look what I did. I don’t want a relationship with her she abused me!!! DH needs to stop!!!!
So if she gives him a sweater
So if she gives him a sweater I guess it better fit you too?
Well, nice of him to finally stand up for you (I've read your posts for awhile) . Tell your DH he had a long time to act like a husband but you are not impressed.
COPD? I think you meant PTSD,
COPD? I think you meant PTSD, but I knew what you meant.
My middle-aged OSD also tells Dh that she already apologized. What she considers an apology is her screaming into my voicemail "I'm SORRY! I'm SORRY!". Hmmmm not a lot of remorse there.
My OSD is also a narcissist. I have never seen someone so in love with herself. She wants to talk to me on the phone with DH, but that is only so she can cry and be a victim and DH will feel sorry for her. Because he always has.
Tell your DH no cards, and he is not the bridge between you and her. If she is truly sorry, she will reach out DIRECTLY to you since she is an adult (without showing off to daddy) to apologize with remorse and explain why she behaved the way she did.
And also tell your DH that in addition to an apology, you will need to see IMPROVED BEHAVIOR over time that matches her words. Until then, shut up. And this makes it easy for you, because you know these things will never happen. Because she is a narcissist.
But really, truth is that narcissists do not apologize unless they think they have something to gain from it. It's the holidays and your DH wants his girls and babies to all be together happy. It will be over soon.
If your DH has guilt feelings, counseling should help him. He SHOULD have guilt feelings.
Exactly SL - apologies are
Exactly SL - apologies are one thing - changed behavior needs to back it up. And for a narcissist, that’s going to prove pretty much impossible. WTH is wrong with this world that so many of them seem to be walking around. I hope your husband gets help through counseling, moose. Are you up going to counseling, too?
Yes I have a counslor. He has
Yes I have a counslor. He has helped me a lot. I do it by myself. DH doesn’t feel the need for counseling. He feels the problems are all mine. He thinks I need to be fixed so that I can be around the princess. The counselor has helped me to see and realize what I am dealing withstood a narcissist . I fell into the trap. I was an easy target. I am an Empath. I am a people pleaser. As he said you do not have to light yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
I have with the support here and the counselor figured out that there is no fixing this. It is not a fixable situation. It is way past that. It would be putting a bandaid on a leaking dam. The only fix here is disengagement. You cannot change a Narcissist. You can only stop being their target and let them move on to a new target.
DH has hope she will change. It is now a personality disorder, it will not change. I understand that is a hard fact for a father to swallow. I don’t think that at this late stage in DH’s life he will ever be able to own the responsibility that he played in this creation. He does blame it on BM. I don’t believe that he will ever be capable of the truth in this. He does see that SS is also a narcissist and he says he should never marry because he is abusive to everyone around him. He does say that SS will probably spend his life alone. SS’s lover is money.
I can take a step back now and see the forest for the trees. I feel like many other wise people on here . We will never have the respect for our spouse, because of the situations. We can stop beating ourselves up thinking if we could only be better, that we would be accepted. That was never going to happen. No matter how hard we tried.
I have set backs like I did tonight. Holidays always add stress. The bad days for me are farther between now.
I get very angry when I am expected to put myself in that situation again. Now at least I can say he// NO.
Yes PTSD. Thank you for the
Yes PTSD. Thank you for the support. Like the sweater joke! I don’t want to go back into the hole again. DH made this mess. She has treated him horribly in the past also. She has never apologized to him either. He knows she won’t. She does not or has not ever felt she has done anything wrong.
DH is feeling uncomfortable because he know his grandspawn will not have a normal relationship with him. He will never step foot in our house. He will never even know that DH has a wife. I M sure he will be told I am Auful. I don’t care what he is told or thinks. SD is dead to me. I don’t want any kind of relationship with her. She does not exist to me.
DH thinks that I should have this strong desire to have a relationship and be around the kid. I have no feelings for him at all. Why would I? I feel sorry for him for who he got as a mother. DH can have a relationship with them just not in our home or where we are. I have moved on. I will not let her back in my head.
Thatbis what upset me. DH still thinks that I need to let her in my head. I asked him haven’t things been better since I have totally disengaged? He said yes but he will never give up his hope that we can all be a family. That shipped sailed along time ago. If he feels guilty that is his cross to bear. He made the mess. He needs a dose of reality. Just because she is your princess/miniwife does not meet others including your wife have to feel the same. You put her on an alter and made her think she was God. You may worship at her alter. I will not. I see her for who she is a narcissist created by her parents who used her for their own emotional needs. DH is already putting that spawn on same alter and thinking others should we worshipping at his alter.
DH needs a councilor that can see the forest for the trees and wake him up so he can own his mess and stop blame shifting.
something funny DH added is that poor SD doesn’t know what to do because BM and MIL are now fighting over who gets to spend more time with her, hubby and spawn!!! The Narcissistic chain continues!!!
She gave him a card to give
She gave him a card to give me that said she forgives me.
Um, she forgives YOU? For what? Narcissists crack me up.
I know. She is truly a
I know. She is truly a narcissist. DH needs to stop believing that it will ever change. She will not change. She is 34 years old. She has gotten worse not better. She believes she is God like. The counselor that DH and I went to together a long ago who was a Christian counselor, told him he had put his children on an alter and made them God like and they believe it.
It is sad that it will more than likely be passed down to her kid. The cycle has already started. She married into one of the wealthiest families in the US. This kid is the male heirs, male heir. He already has a life of private planes, yachts etc.
All of this wealth and privilege feeds the narcissist supply. She now really thinks she is the best and only person, and the center of the universe.
But as the saying goes. You
But as the saying goes. You can put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig.
DH asks if she apologized
DH asks if she apologized would I accept it. I thought about it last night. It would have to be her owning her actions. Owning the destruction she has done to me. Owning the destruction she has done to DH and My marriage. Writing sorry on a piece of paper is not enough. A sorry from a narcissist means nothing it is just another game. Owning your actions and taking responsibility for your destruction is the only thing that would be acceptable. She would have to admit to the destruction she has caused.
She has been given a pass for her actions with her parents her whole life. She has never been held accountable for her abuse of DH. That is his choice to not make her accountable.
I do not have love or respect for her. I will not give her a free pass. I would not any other person who did this to me. Just because she is DH’s piece of S&&t does not give her a free pass to abuse me.
That is the only way to heal. It is no different than a husband who beats up his wife and then apologizes. Then does it again and again. The other thing is that even if the person takes accountability for their actions, you still would not desire to have a relationship with them. It would only help you heal and be able to move on.
No one should have to have a relationship with their abuser. It will never heal. It will always be in the back of their mind.
after 15!years of abuse. Her owning her actions is not about building a relationship with her. It is about my healing and moving on.
When I was in my teen boy
When I was in my teen boy brain fart years I spent a lot of time telling my parents that I was sorry and about what I was going to do differently.
The most effective response that they came up was "Don't tell us, show us."
Stipulate that toxic narcissist SD show you over the long term rather than tell you that she is sorry. Actions outperform words. They also have more value.
Take care of you.
DH needs to stop pushing his
DH needs to stop pushing his agenda of having a happy family and let it go. He is disrespecting you and your wishes by continuing to beat this drum. People like SD don't change, and any apology would be meaningless, you are right. Put your energy into standing up to DH and making sure he knows you will not put up with him trying to force a relationship with the two of you.
A follow up
SD had asked DH what he wanted for Cristmas several weeks ago. He said he wanted 2 tickets to a hockey game or play and it be a gift to both of us. DH went and picked up his present today. Another sweater just like last year. Keeping up BM’s tradition. DH has never worn the one from last year. Something else to hang in the closet.
I told DH she has given both of us an answer again. She will never take ownership of her actions. I asked him to please stop. Accept it for what it is and who she is. Go see your grandson. Keep it all seperate. Let’s get her out of our marriage. Let’s work on us. He has to see her for who she is, not who he wants her to be.
Your size?
"Another sweater just like last year." Yes? And was it your size? Just keep standing firm and continue to say, "No." Your DH is being unreasonable but next time he brings it up simply say, "We've discussed this before. I will not discuss it further. I'm done." The end. As you and many of the posters have written, a "Sorry" has to be backed up by a change of attitude and acceptance of responsibility, NOT screaming, "I'm sorry" on the phone. That's not a good sign that the 'apology' us genuine, is it? DH keeps placing you in the 'heavy' roll and putting pressure on you because he thinks you will eventually cave in. But the longer you maintain your boundaries, the more you see the advantages, and the easier it gets to resist.
My DH tried this briefly. In one telephone conversation with SD he looked at me with a light in his eyes and spouted off, "SD says she LIKES you!" I replied loud and clear, so SD could hear me, "She doesn't like me and I don't like her." DH could handle it however he wished but both of them knew that on my end, I was done with the B.S.
Even if it's a genuine
Even if it's a genuine apology and you "accept" that does not mean that you have to allow her in your life. The easiest way to "forgive and forget" is to never see that person again.
My SS34 (the one who ransacked my home and moved in with his GF while we were on vacation) truly is sorry. But he's just sorry because he no longer has access to my lake house, vacation condo, etc. Not that I've ever gotten a word of apology - but that's okay, but I do not want to ever spend even 5 seconds talking to him, etc. He just doesn't exist in my life.
SS is trying to reach out via DH. I've had some significant health problems, and DH told me the other day that SS asked about me. I said nothing. Yesterday while DH was on the phone with SS I could hear from DH's answers that SS was asking about me. I ignored it.
SS and his GF have a 3 year old son. I feel sorry for the child having such crappy parents, but I don't have any relationship with him, and that's okay. The granddaughter of my mother's best friend (both long deceased) is close to me (we had dinner with her and her family last night). She has an adorable 3 year old son, and I love him to pieces.
DH of course is free to see SS, the GF, the GC as he wishes - as long as he doesn't desert me when I need him or when we have plans.
Your DH is not being reasonable at all.
She forgives you? Did I get that right?
DH gives you the card and I assume he saw this idiotic comment. Then he wants mediation? Why would you get into a sandbox to play her game? Walk on by, don’t look back. Forget her.
A Narcissist Will Never Sincerely Apologize
It’s not in them to do this.
We had a similar situation w SD 40+ years old throwing a 45 minute rant/tantrum without being reigned in. DH & I still struggle with this and it’s been months now.
At that time I felt she owed both of us an apology and I guess DH communicated that to her, because a couple weeks later we get a group text apology. Really? Then she called DH to ask how it went. He told her “Not very well. She feels a group text is impersonal, and the apology needs to fit the offense.” She was livid. Nobody has stood up to her or told he “NO!” until I came along. I’m no nonsense person, and believe in slashing the trash. I know a master manipulator and narcissistic self-promoter when I see one. I had her pegged immediately, but played the game for DH’s sake.
She had “apologized” by phone and email to her father, making excuses for her nastiness, and NEVER ONCE TOOK OWNERSHIP OF HER BEHAVIOR! It was our fault. Normal people can see the absurdity in this.
At the advice of our counselor and pastor, DH attempted to create a boundary by letting her know he was not alright with her calling our counselor/pastor & close friends behind our backs (manipulation attempts failed). She left him the most horrible, vebdmous, visceral message you could ever hear, basically giving him an ultimatum, make a choice. It’s all so insane!
Believe people when they show you who they are! A lion will never have to tell you it’s a lion. You’ll know.
Follow your gut instinct and do not get back into the viper’s pit!
Sometimes it's so hard to get
Sometimes it's so hard to get our DHs to understand what we are going through. The best analogy I can think of to equate the feeling to is if for years on your way home you have to walk through a small, dark alley. Most of the time, you get to your house just fine, but every once in a while, someone jumps out at you and smacks you or kicks you or mugs you and then runs away. You try to tell your DH this, but he seems to never have any problem when he walks through that alley, so he sloughs it off or chalks it up to your imagination.
Finally, after years you've had enough and you tell him you just aren't going to go that way any more, for your own safety, if anything. DH gets ticked that you keep wanting to take the long way around home, so he finally starts to see or find out who the instigators are and he thinks if he can get them to apologize and state that they will never do it again, he can get you to wander through that small, dark alley again. But, a couple of things immediately come up with this expectation. 1) DH isn't really wanting them to apologize because he personally feels they've done anything wrong. He just wants them to apologize to go back to the good ol' days, HIS good ol' days, so to speak. And, 2) You, or pretty much anyone else, would have to be nuts to risk going through that alley, getting waylaid again, when you've already discovered a safer way home! What's in it for you going back to the "good ol' days," other than risking another a$$-whupping?
You can attempt to explain it to DH that way. Notice I didn't say anything at all about the muggers being related to DH, because the analogy is an attempt to just lay it out there as it is, as it is to you and as it would be to anyone else--getting attacked for no reason in and around your own home, and who the H- would want to put up with that!? If DH wants to have a relationship with his own kids or Gkids, he needs to do it on his own dime. You, on the other hand, should be able to choose safety and peace over a potential, unmerited attack any day of the week, any time.
Good analogy!
You brought up the point that it really doesn't matter who is attacking you - you are still being attacked, the route you've been taking isn't working and will never work. So you take the safe route. What is really sad is that we KNOW the attacker, and the person who is supposed to be the one you can go to for support is the one trying to convince you that it is your imagination. Disengagement for me was that safe route, and even though it is not perfect, and I lost some respect for DH, it is better than getting beat up.
Actually, taking up for ourselves presents certain rewards in that now I have no problem defending myself to people who not have my best interests at heart. It's also easier to enforce boundaries.
That is a very good analogy.
That is a very good analogy. DH cannot and will not admit the truth. He will not let himself. I don't think he could live with it.He can see it about anyone else just not his princess miniwife. Somewhere deep down DH knows how sick it all is. Somewhere deep down he knows what he created. He keeps hoping she will change. She never will. The dynamics of her parents marriage and them using her for their own emotional support messed up her brain for life. She is already doing the same to her child.
I saw a christmas card she addressed to DH's brother for christmas. She has them printed. Her return address is Her name, her kids name and husband's name last. Narcissism breeds nacissism. That kid is already being treated like the 2nd coming. Oh excuse me the 3rd coming as she is the second.
More about “apologies”
A while back Bio- mom was staying with SD and using her computer. She found and sent me all the horrid emails that SD had sent around about me. DH told SD to apologize. She sent a note to me declaring herself the victim of hacking and neglected to say anything about what she had done. An apology? Right.
Why did Bio mom do that?
Why did Bio mom do that?
To stir up trouble
She has caused no end of difficulty- this was par for the course.
Update
So DH spawn daughter has been playing her games again. So on Christmas she sends him a text saying that her texts are blocked on his phone and accuses me of blocking them. How does that even make sense her text came through. I have not ever blocked her texts. She is a sick crazyB%%%%. She really is.
So DH birthday is tomorrow. So I am working today my regular day off so, we can spend his birthday together. So yesterday His daughter calls him and wants him to go to lunch with her tomorrow(his birthday) he says yes. So I tell him no I have already made plans for us, and I took the day off to spend with him. I set up lunch with his sister and brother in law as a surprise. I am his wife and our plans come first. We already had plans. So he calls her and says how about saturday? She said no. It has to be on his birthday. So now she is throwing a hugh temper tantrum and won't answer his calls or texts.
She is 34 years old. Grow the he'$$ up!!!!! Daddy is spending his birthday with his wife.!!!!!!
These narcissiistic women that these DH's and BM's created are really sick. This whole mini wife syndrome is also very sick.
The amazing part is that people like us come along and for a time they are able to make us believe that it is us with the problem. They do not want to see how sick their relationships are that they created with their spawn. They will never see or admit to their sickness. We are able to look at ourselves and try to figure it out. We finally do and are able to see what is really going on. They never will. All part of their narcissism. All part of the sick games they play.
It is so true what everyone on here says about dealing with narcissists, If you stop being their supply they step up their games. They do not want their narcissistic supply cut off.
I will never go down that Dark ally again. DH's sick daughter gets sicker as the years go by. He wants to beleive she will change. She will not. He cannot face the fact that his princess is a cruel narcissist. He can see it with his son. But he cannot let himself really see it with his princess miniwife.
If DH caves into her now. He better make her his wife. Because this one will be done. There is only room for 1 wife in this marriage.
Good for you!!!
Your SD has declared war. Let her - and DH - know you are ready for her and her games. If DH caves you have to be prepared to deliver consequences. DH needs to know you are not making empty threats. Stand your ground.
"It has to be on his birthday
"It has to be on his birthday"
This is her way of making him choose, as she knows he suggested Saturday because he already has plans with you.
I don't care if she likes you as a person or not, the fact that she cannot, DOES not, respect her father's relationship with you, is inexcusable. The fact that your husband refuses to acknowledge her for what she is and her treatment of you, is just as inexcusable.
I thought this was the SD who
I thought this was the SD who bought a card and said she forgave you? Hmmmm, guess that was just to look like such a nice girl to daddy....everyone knew that but him. I've told my DH if my OSD wants to apologize, she knows how to reach me. He does not need to be in the middle. But this will never happen because narcissists cannot apologize.
Wanting to have lunch on his birthday is not as much about wanting to see her father, but seeing who her father would choose to spend his time with....her or you. My OSD did this game of cat and mouse with DH for years.
I don't know if you read the Quora topic on narcissism, but it is really interesting.....some real experts with good information. All you can do is stay away. Mine would resort to any means to try to drive a wedge in our marriage. My DH did not believe me for years, but when I completely removed myself from OSD having any ability to get at me, it was interesting watching her come up with crazy scenarios and slowly expose herself. She's an outright wackadoodle.
My DH put up with the treatment from OSD until I was almost out the door. I said her sickness was not going to affect my life or marriage, and if it did, I was gone. When DH showed OSD his marriage was priority, OSD started to really treat him the way he was afraid she would - cut herself and her children out of his life, unless it's to dangle bait in front of his face. But he decided he valued the marriage more, and that made her even madder. He later said that she is punishing him because he finally stood up to her. How sick is that? A father "standing up" to his DD! That's mind boggling to most people who were raised to respect their parents.
And no, your SD will not change. Your SD will continue to play games. Tell you DH you are fine with him having a reationship with his DD separate from you but this is not a child on a custody plan coming to visit daddy a few times a week. You don't need to have a relationship with her, healthy people don't associate with toxic ones, you don't want to hear about her until she can behave like a respectable adult.
Good for You for staying on
Good for You for staying on you disengagement. If my DH brought me this BS, I would tell him to mind his own business and let it be her problem..
End of story for DH being the problem solver, when he is the initial problem for her behavior. Ugh!
The age old question...
...from my DH is what would Sd(60) need to do to demonstrate a change in her attitude? He has been asking me this for years until Christmas Day when I honestly told him I don’t know ... there is no “list” that she can check off. The bottom line is I will recognize it when I see it.
DH was surprised at my response - he wants to “fix” things that just can’t be fixed. An apology would not be genuine in my case from SD. He was surprised I don’t want to pursue “trying” to have a relationship with either skid. I can be polite if they ever visit but that’s it.
The woman is 60.
The woman is 60. 6.0. 60 year old people do not change unless they are struck by lightening. So my answer would be that she could stand in the middle of a golf course during the next thunderstorm and hope for the best!
My SD is 43 and she is not
My SD is 43 and she is not changing either. Age is part of it and I also believe my OSD is a narcissist.
I have told my DH that ball is in SD's court, and he agrees. She would have to give me a sincere apology, show remorse, and explain why she acted the way she did. I mean, she's been to therapy because I exist, so surely she has some insight? And then I would have to see over time her actions match her words.
None of those things above will EVER happen.
Find a way to position it to your DH that the ball is in your SD's court. You are not signing up for more of the same. Healthy people do not hang around toxicity. If SD is 60, I am not sure what that makes you, but life is short. Until you see remorse and that things will not be the same, it's not your problem that he cannot have his girls all together.
Find a way to position it to
I disagree with this. When you are done, you are done. There is no court. There is no ball. SD is what she is, and that is someone that you DO NOT WANT in your life.
She could do cartwheels and hire skywriters to write apologies in the sky. She's still not going to be anyone you would enjoy knowing. We meet 100s or more likely 1000s of people in our life time. Not all are going to earn a place in your life.
Very true!!! My husbands
Very true!!! My husbands daughter is not someone I want in my life at all.
Completely understand what
Completely understand what you are saying. I don't want to see mine either. But if your SD is a narcissist, she is an expert manipulator, victim, and will be playing boo hoo to your DH. Mine did this, trying to make me look like the unreasonable one, and DH came home from a few trips saying "OSD says she apologized". The solution to not have to discuss the issue with my DH was to put the ball back in her court, knowing I would never have to deal with it, because she is not capable of meeting my requirements.
These women do not change
These women do not change regardless of what they say to daddeee, from what I have experienced. Words are easy, if they are even saying any to daddeee; (cause daddeee makes up stuff too for them). Healthy people stay away from toxic people, so true. In most our cases we wanted it to all work so badly, we just waited too long to cut the sickness out of our lives.
Amends! A true, sincere
Amends! A true, sincere apology comes with amends. WikiHow even includes nice pictures re: how to make amends: https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Amends
P.S. No true narcissist would ever do this in a million years! Also, too many people in the US think the worst thing you can do is make a mistake AND admit to it. They don’t even want to admit they made a mistake much less get anywhere near the amends part. So, if SKs are under age 40, I’d tell DH that the odds of them admitting they made a mistake and sincerely apologizing are about as likely as Trump getting a Nobel Peace Prize for his work on the wall.