women who abuse
Since I posted earlier about myths surrounding divorced dads, I thought I'd throw out another one.
How many of us - particularly those who deal with crazy BMs - are married to men who were abused in their marriages to BM? Whenever you hear about domestic violence it's usually about men beating women, but what about women who abuse?
In my case, two separate counselors (one whom he visited on his own and another who met with both DH and BM as part of their divorce process) told him he was being emotionally abused. BM would also hit him on occasion, but he's a big guy, so she never injured him. Even in the time I've known him, when BM is, by her own account, I've seen her call him a "loser" for not giving in to her demands, a "deadbeat dad" when his insurance company took a full business day to add the children to his insurance, that he "didn't care about his children" when he wouldn't pay her tax debts or cover her health insurance. When they were married, she told him that he was a loser because he didn't make enough money, that he wasn't sophisticated enough for her (she is not sophisticated), that he always brought her bad luck, and she belittled him constantly in front of others. When he first met my parents, he took me aside before meeting them and said "please don't make fun of me in front of your parents"...I replied, "why would I make fun of you in front of my parents?" He's also super sensitive about anything that makes him seem non-manly as I think she used to claim he wasn't much of a man. She also loves to tell him now how his children don't feel comfortable talking to him or don't feel comfortable at our house.
I think DH assumed that her treatment of him was normal or that he just had to put up with it because he wanted to stay married. His family knew he was miserable, but still got angry with him when he got divorced. MIL thinks that BM is just "high strung".
I can't help but wonder that if we were more honest about emotional abuse or that women can be abusers, too that it might at least raise awareness. I also have some friends who were emotionally abused by their mothers, but because they weren't hit, it was difficult for them to admit that they were abused.
Curious to hear if others have had similar experiences.
Maybe slightly off. My
Maybe slightly off.
My partner was also a victim of abuse at the hands of his wife.
What's sad is almost anywhere I share this and yes even here in told something to the affect of "well maybe it was really him." It's not even that it didn't happen but "no really he must have abused her because they are the kind of people who claim they were."
It's a joke really. I see every day the damage it did to him. Trust me he's a strong man but just today he went to the store while I was at work, he got some food, the after realized he didn't have as much money as he though he did. He apologized over and over again. It's like he was waiting for me to blow up.
I've seen him flinch if I get upset though I've never nor would I ever harm him or threaten harm.
Alot of reactions he has are dramatic and very clearly impulsive to protect him.
We've talked alot about this. He recognizes what's going on and gives me advice in how to help while I also assure him that his fear while understandable is no longer based.
I still get mad about the "maybe he was the abuser. You know they can hide it really well."
In the 1.5 years we've been together he has never touched me in a way I didn't want or made any sort of threat. He RARE uses phsycial correction with the children with the last time being back in the summer when he slapped the little ones hand for trying to touch something dangerous.
I hate this idea that men just can be abused and that if they claim they were it's lies and manipulation. That if it were true they would say something as if they don't have everything to lose.
Yuck! That's terrible that
Yuck! That's terrible that people repeatedly try to claim your DH was the abuser. Women can be just as nasty as men and even more nasty from an emotional, psychological perspective. Just look at the "mean girls" phenomenon.
No one has ever tried to convince me that my DH was the abuser. He's a really nice, happy-go-lucky guy, so he'd have to have a serious Jekyl and Hyde complex in order to be an abuser. I think in my case, BM has BPD and I've read several articles about how the "nice guy" type is especially susceptible to women with BPD. "Nice guys" are very trusting and assume that if they treat the woman nicely, she'll treat them nicely back. BM treated DH as if he hung the moon when they met and then turned on him about three years in, so I think he convinced himself that she changed because of something he had done. He also trusts everyone, which sometimes drives me crazy, because some people should not be trusted.
The real danger, in my case, is that I don't think BM will stop at DH. It's one thing if she takes out her anger on her current husband, but sooner or later, she'll start in on SSs. She already plays mind games with them and right now, they still do what she wants. If either one of them ever tries to be independent in anyway, I fear all hell will break loose for them.
Emotional abuse is always a
Emotional abuse is always a lot harder to prove than physical abuse, esp. for men, and of course men have the added burden of the societal take that “real men” are never abused. I’ve heard stories of men going into police stations reporting abuse from women and showing wounds and cops snickering and laughing at them, for example.
We talk a lot here about guilty dads and such, but in some cases, we could pretty much substitute the term bullied dads instead. Men can be shamed and bullied into submission just as much as women can. And, a good example is that just like some people think stepmothers are all evil, some also think that every divorced dad is a deadbeat dad. I’ve mentioned this before—that divorced bio-dads fare little better than SMs many a time.
You hear a lot about bullying and how to deal with it nowadays, esp. in the school system. I applaud this! I’m never sure if there is really that much difference between bullying and abuse, but regardless they are darn near close. I know for my DH, he was subjected to a lot of belittling or bullying with his ex. He was never good enough, never making enough money, never ambitious enough, and so on. Since the whole world revolved around her, it was only a question of time before she had affairs to fulfill HER needs. Eventually she deemed him so insignificant in her life, that she filed for divorce. But, true to her narcissism, once her ex- moved on and esp. after he remarried, her talons came out big time, and this was considering that she was now remarried herself. Like most bullies and abusers, she still thought of him as her property and as one who was still supposed to be serving only her.
But, I still fault my DH for not standing up to her after the fact. It is one thing for him to have taken her bullying when he was still married to her, but for a man OR woman to be divorced and still taking it is something else. Nonetheless, I agree. This is an interesting topic and one that I think plays into our marriages more than we realize. We keep telling our DHs to stand up to these be.atchs, but our DHs are in absolute fear of doing so because one of the hardest things for a victim of abuse to do is to confront their abuser. And, let’s face it, most men don’t want to admit that they were ever bullied or abused by their ex-. Much easier to just put your head in the sand and play guilty dad. So, that leaves SM stuck trying to deal with this fallout from the divorce on top of many others.
Yeah, there is definitely a double-standard on this, but let’s not forget that more women are physically and emotionally abused. At the end of the day, for any spouse to belittle or go after the other, is just plain wrong!! And, both men and women need to know how to and feel free to recognize this and say something about it, and get help for it ASAP. What pisses me off too, is a lot of times I think society expects SM’s to put up with some of the family’s bullying tactics too, all for the sake of the children, of course. In reality, all the children are learning in these type of situations is that bullying pays off.
You are spot on- in your
You are spot on- in your response. SO was definitely bullied in the past, BM has tried to use her bullying tactics on SO by once demanding he give her gas money in addition to paying the CS he owed her because at that time- it was not going thru the government organization she had to drive down to collect it. I told SO absolutely not, if my ex did that, he would tell me to f- off...this was the time that SO finally took a stand and said, "No" to her BS...which ultimately resulted in her taking SO back for more CS...Very good observation and explanation.
Idvilen, I think we have the
Idvilen, I think we have the same BM. I also think my DH doesn't want to admit he was abused and bullied because it makes him seem less manly. He always gets very sensitive if anything comes up that seems like I'm questioning his manliness, which I'm not doing.
Now, He will stand up to BM, but when I met him he used to cower around her. I'm not sure what finally empowered him to stand up to her. He would say that he didn't even realize her behavior was bullying until I pointed it out to him. We also had some major blow-outs early on in our relationship when he would expect me to cancel things or change at the last minute, because BM demanded something. I told him that I wasn't interested in being in a relationship with a man who still let his ex wife call the shots in his life.
Now, BM only contacts him to demand extra money. He's told her that, too. His life is so much better and our life is so much better when she's not bothering him.
i agree about emotional
i agree about emotional abuse. bm abused dh and one way she did this was cheating on him.
to add to this he still wanted bm back as she was walking out the door with her lover! i honestly think he wanted the family intact at any cost for the sake of the children.
she also made a mental mess of all of her children and i have to deal with it now in her adult children.
idvilen, i agree that most physical abusers are men, but agree that abuse can be from either sex in terms of mental illnesses.
It was interesting to read
It was interesting to read the comment about people not believing and insisting that the man must have been the abuser.
I understand this way of thinking because I lived with an abusive man for a few years, and there were times when I did yell at him and even hit him a couple of times (he was not hurt) because I was defending myself, or finally snapped after years of being physically and emotionally abused and manipulated, much like a teased dog will eventually bite. Then, he went about telling anyone who listened how abused he was by me, and loving it up while playing the victim. A lot of abusers will beat you down for years, and then the moment you strike back, will collect whatever vindication and sympathy they can while trashing the real victim's reputation. Another reason for this is that the abuser will destroy the victim's rep preemptively so that no one will believe her if she ever tries to get help. I've met plenty of other women who have had the same experience, and learned from the domestic violence shelter that I attended, that it's rare for a female to be the true abuser because the power dynamic is most often unbalanced. I felt fear of the man in my life because he was bigger, a martial artist, actually capable of hurting me- his family supported him, mine did not. He was able to threaten me with being out on the street and taking custody of my child, because he would have the money for a great lawyer, and I would not, etc.
The difference was I was afraid of him, he was not afraid of me. Anything I did in retaliation was just something he was happy about because he could use it against me. That is why I am always skeptical when a man says he has been abused.
Although I realize it does happen. I guess it's more evident that your husband was a victim, OP because he still appears to be afraid, and suffering effects, and because he does not treat you abusively. I know abusers will eventually do the same to ever partner they have.
I hope he can heal. I just wanted to share my perspective as to why some may jump to conclusions and disbelieve.
Thank you for sharing your
Thank you for sharing your story, witch.hazel. I understand that the dynamics of abuse can be complicated and I agree with you that abusers can be very good at playing the victim. I also agree that men abusing women is often more dangerous because men can use physical abuse to do real damage. Very few women could beat up a man, but most men can easily overpower a woman.
I would disagree with the statement that it's rare for a female to be a true abuser, because I think that statement is rooted in assumptions. I think there are a lot of homes where the wife makes more money than the husband or the wife has control over the children - and she can use those to maintain power over her husband. I think a lot of men fear divorce because they fear losing access to their children. These men might not fear for their lives and would not likely end up in domestic violence shelters, but I don't think that means that there aren't abusive women out there.
Also, BMs are very good at tarnishing the reputations of their ex husbands, who then get viewed as deadbeat dads, even when they are not. I know in my case, BM tells all who will listen that DH doesn't do enough for the children, isn't involved enough in their lives, doesn't support them, but really, she restricts his access to the children as much as she can and tells them not to tell their father things as well. I know MIL believes a lot of the things that BM says about DH, even though he is her son. DH's gets himself all worked up about how his family thinks he's a terrible father, when he's not. I remind him that if his family thinks he's a terrible father then they clearly don't know him and their opinions shouldn't matter.
it is very common for
it is very common for abusers, once the victims stands up, to call abuse on the victim. family courts dont have a clue on how manipulative mentally ill people can be.
"The difference was I was afraid of him, he was not afraid of me. Anything I did in retaliation was just something he was happy about because he could use it against me. That is why I am always skeptical when a man says he has been abused."
the bottom line is men are physically bigger than women for the most part and physically stronger. there is a gender difference in abuse.
when a man puts his fist through the drywall it is his way of saying this could be your face. i doubt many men live in fear thinking their wives could beat them up.
women can be abusive but i dont think many women send their husbands to the hospital with a broken arm.
My DH’s ex sent him to the
My DH’s ex sent him to the hospital with knee injury. She was attacking him and he was covering his face because she was jumping to his face and moving away, she ran towards him and hit him in the knee with heavy shoe. He had to go to the hospital. He pressed charges but withdraw later because she promised to go to counseling and go back on psych meds. It was shortly before he decided to be done.
She is short but very heavy. It’s not even the point. My DH is a big time doormat. No one ever ever would think he’d abuse a mouse let alone a person. Everyone knows she was an abuser. She doesn’t even hide it much. Her argument was that he “isn’t man enough”. That was her excuse for everything: not working, smoking pot, looking at porn, doing phone sex, smacking him etc .
I guess she wanted him to be rough in every day life, in bed, and in everywhere. . He can’t be rough even if he wanted to. He is not a matcho man
I could have almost written
I could have almost written witch hazel's response. My ex is an master manipulator and a liar. It is humiliating to me that he haslied to his new wife and family or anyone who will listen that I abused him.
That said is I do not think that being an abuser is defined by sex.
My husband's ex legit threw
My husband's ex legit threw things at him when she was upset... And as a military person who's gone as high as they can in self-defense... It took super focus not to retaliate... He broke the counter once trying not too... But because he had all his training no one ever bought that she was being abusive in any way... Because he could "defend himself." But really.. Only if he wanted to be the one with charges... It gets skewed... They figure because men are supposed to be the "stronger gender" that woman can't be abusive to the men.
my dh ex threw things at him
my dh ex threw things at him and only left when she had an affair with a married man. the man divorced his wife to marry bm.
I seen my DH after being torn
I seen my DH after being torn to shreds by an ex GF! (after his divorce) He face was badly scratched and he had bruises. Once a neighbor call the sherriff's office during one of her drunken fits, and the officers asked him to leave for the night!
That would have been reasonable IF it hadn't been HIS house, and IF his MINOR kids (4 of them) hadn't been home, too!!!!
He finally got the nerve to end it. I took me a couple years for me to be able to have a drink without him freaking out, because he was afraid I would go off on him like she did. He doesn't have much trouble admitting she routinely ripped him a new one, but he chalks it up to don't ever get involved with a drunken ( states nationality) Women! They're Mean! Which is probabley why booze isn't allowed in their communities!
My DH was emotionally abused
My DH was emotionally abused by BM2 throughout their entire relationship. He was never, ever good enough. His accent was an embarrassment, he didn't earn enough, he didn't act right, he didn't look right and he fumbled in bed (like hell he does). Nothing was ever good enough. He had to work multiple jobs and tie himself in to knots to please her. In the end, it was never enough as she needs constant validation. True to the pattern of most narcissists, she cheated twice and left DH the second time.
After they divorced, DH was still the puppet on her strings. She treated him like he was property and she owned every single inch of him. We had many discussions and fights over it. He was programmed to think that he had to do anything she asked or else the world would collapse and she'd strike him down with a lightening bolt.
After several years and me nearly walking, DH finally came to realise that the only power BM2 to had was the power he was giving her by letting her call the shots and make demands. This year was very interesting, watching my DH stand up to his 20+ years bully and tell her no. Tell her that she is never coming back into his life. Tell her that he loves me and she treated him like nothing more than sh*t on her shoes.
I think this was very empowering for DH. She had spend two decades tearing him down and brainwashing him into thinking she was the all powerful Goddess of whom the solar system orbited around. I build him back up every day. The damage I still see in DH is heart wrenching. He is getting better, ever so slowly. I hope one day he realises what a wonderful man he truly is...
I think this part is key to
I think this part is key to all emotional abuse - the brainwashing:
"He was programmed to think that he had to do anything she asked or else the world would collapse and she'd strike him down with a lightening bolt."
I think that any woman or man
I think that any woman or man who PAS’s the othe other parent is abusive firstly to the children and also to the ex spouse. So many types of abuse. Abusers are usually excellent at playing the victim and are manipulating at their cellular level. So an outsider sees them as victim and the real victim as either abusive or a nut job. They project their abusive behavior onto the real victim. Our BM accused DH of trying to murder her by drugging her and that is how she got him barred from his own home and frog marched out by the sheriff. She gave herself too much of her own sleeping pills, she knew how much to take to get attention but not enough to do real damage. Then she accused him of doing it. Tears, sobs, pitiful looks she should have won an Oscar apparently. I was married to a physically violent man in my early twenties and the one time I found the strength to fight back? Yep you guessed it, he immediately called the cops and told them he was terrified of me. He was six foot four and built, I was 110 pounds back then. The cops believed him and advised me to get help for my mental illness. What they saw was a hysterical woman, red upset face, shaking and incapable of speaking. He made sure he was freshly dressed and charming when they arrived. The one little scratch I had managed to make on his neck he showed off to the cops. I was so terrified of this man that I knew he would kill me if I showed them my bruises. Abusers are across all genders.
You know, there may well be
You know, there may well be something to this. My xH was definitely emotionally abused by the BM. Both kids were as well. As the years went on, I could see that the kids were emotionally exploitative, and believe that they learned by watching their mother. Of course I also know that my xMIL was equally emotionally exploitative. Maybe it's somewhat true? Men marry girls like good old mom? He always told me that I was totally opposite of his mother, and that's what attracted him to me. Just thinking out loud. LOL.
I definitely see traits in my
I definitely see traits in my MIL that are like BM's. BM is more extreme and more mean about things, but MIL is also very manipulative and I think DH always felt like she saw him as less than. It actually makes me wary of DH's family, because they're all just a little bit mean to him. He's seen as the ne'er-do-well of the family, while his brother is the golden child and his sister is the princess. I almost feel like MIL set him up to be with BM because through her treatment, she taught him that belittling and manipulation were to be expected, and then got angry with him when things didn't work out.
The ne'er-do-well or the door
The ne'er-do-well or the door mat??? I'm inclined to believe that it could be either, maybe even both? My xMIL always belittled and guilted my xH. I always secretly thought that she (xMIL) purposely tried to make him feel 'less than' as a way of keeping him near, so he could take care of her in her elder years. Kind of like entrapping him by using his low self-esteem against him. Self-esteem (or lack thereof) that SHE helped to create. The BM did the same. They were both bullies who were great at being victims. The other siblings were smart and got the hell outta dodge, lol. One of them even told me that if he hadn't left the area, his mother would have suffocated his very existence. I think that's why I stuck it out as long as I did. I really tried to help him but, the damage was just too great.
Yes, he is totally both in
Yes, he is totally both in his family. He was the ne'er-do-well because he was less academically inclined then his siblings, but he's actually a harder worker than either of them and does just fine for himself. He's also a much kinder and more sensitive person than his siblings and I think his brother - who's a bit of a jerk - used to make fun of him for that. DH was the guy who was nice to everyone in high school and his brother was the jerky, popular guy who slept with all the girls. He would tell me that he doesn't, but I know he thinks his brother is more successful than him and his sister is smarter than him, but I don't think either thing is true. DH is actually more successful in his profession than BIL is and SIL is "book smart" but is nearing 40 and has never had a real job in her life because she's too busy being a full-time student. MIL pays her student loans and lots of her living expenses.
It's been sort of interesting to watch DH's behavior towards his mother change since he met me. When I met him he was always mother that his mother needed help or his mother would be lonely. His father died almost 20 years ago and he was the sibling who came home to help her out. Now, he sort of avoids her. I'm not sure if it's because I pointed out that she overstepped boundaries a lot with him,if it's because she isn't always nice to me, or some other reason. I almost feel bad for MIL, but not enough to do anything about it, because she does overstep boundaries and she's a bit of a meddler.
MIL has told me that my SIL (BIL's wife) has told her that she'll take care of her, in her old age, because "that's the Korean way", but SIL barely talks to MIL, so if I were MIL, I'd be making other plans. DH will not be doing it, because I have my own mother to worry about and right now she lives 2500 miles away, so my plan is for DH and I to be closer to her by the time she and MIL need caregivers.
BioHo verbally AND physically
BioHo verbally AND physically abused my DH. DH doesn't consider her hitting him as physical abuse because she's "smaller" and it didn't hurt MUCH. Sigh... Sorry, DH, but 'Ho DID physically abuse you.