Some serious PAS has been going on the
Last two months since SD returned to BMs after being with us for the summer. So everyone knows what happened on Thursday, so on Friday I was working from home, SD was in the guest room/office playing with the dogs on the bed and all of a sudden I hear SD go "don't be such a pussy," my immediate reaction was "woah" and she turned and looked at me. I then told her that she wasn't in trouble, but that "pussy" is not a word that is for children to use. It is a grown up word. As soon as I started to tell her that it isn't a word for kids, she got like she was going to cry like she did the day before when I told her not to stand on the desk chair.
So then later on Friday when we were leaving the house I saw SD had put on her play make up eye shadow and lipstick. With the events the day before and then the telling her to not use the grown up word, I decided to let it slide because I didn't want to correct her yet again. But then yesterday when we went to go to the fall festival, SD put on eye shadow and lipstick again. So DH approached SD very gently and calmly telling her she is beautiful without make up, that she has plenty of time to wear make up in her life, but that she's too young to be wearing it out of the house and could wear it at the house as much as she likes. Same thing happened SD was about to cry about it. DH said the same thing she wasn't in trouble or anything, etc.
So it is clear now that any bit of correction SD immediately jumps to crying whether it comes from me or DH, even though again, no raised voice, no yelling, nothing plus it was even explained to her why we said what we said. Other than these incidents, we had a great visit with SD. What frustrates me is that DH overheard BM yelling at SD and her sister on SD's birthday this year calling them fuckers and mother fuckers, etc. but can't take being told not to do something here gently.
DH went solo to take SD to the airport because a two hour drive each way plus being exposed to more germs than is necessary we decided was too much for DD. DH did say though that when the airport asked SD who she was going to see SD said "my mom and my dad." ... which is interesting because up until this point she would always refer to stepdad by his first name when talking to us, even though we never told her she couldn't call him dad or my other dad which is what we know she calls him at BMs. In the car on Friday too SD told me a story where she referred to stepdad as Dad.
I know it has been two months, but these are such drastic changes for only being there 8 weeks since she left us for the summer. All I know is her immediately jumping to crying isn't going to change us having her follow our rules or telling her not to do something. I know BM complained last year that if she tells SD not to do something SD tells people BM forces her to do things and other bad things. So idk if BM and stepdad stopped correcting her on anything or what, but we aren't going to let SD run our house and manipulate things.
EDIT: It's like in April when we were on video chat with SD and SD wanted to know why we changed summer dates this year. DH told her we would talk to her about it in person. SD asked again and DH told her again that we would talk to her about it in person. Well she got mad DH didn't tell her what she wanted to know. So apparently when we got off the call she ran, hid and was crying. BM accused DH of basically being mean to SD. Which he wasn't at all just told her no and was firm about it. Since then every video call with SD has been basically outside and not in SD's bedroom ever again. We will see what happens when it actually gets cold there.
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Remind me
How old is she?
She’s 8
Just turned 8 in July
8 yo should
Be used to be correct. As a parent you must correct your kids all the time. .. SAY --hello--thank you--good morning---please--
So I don't understand this just doesn't roll off he back ? As most kids do
What was she doing to the dog
What was she doing to the dog for the dog to react, in ber words, like "such a P?!" SD is manipulative and it sounds like she has horrible parenting in BM's home. In the future, I wouldn't explain to her why you all corrected her. I'd just correct her and ignore the manipulative pouty face. I hate to hear that this is happening because odds are not in your favor that this situation will improve, although I hope I'm wrong.
I also want to know what she
I also want to know what she was doing to the dog!
So I was sitting like 10 feet from her
and she wasn't doing anything bad to the dog. Our husky when playing or just in general can be a little jumpy. She has always been this way and SD has never been left alone with her to harm her in any way. The husky just is more cautious which is pretty common because they are very intelligent. She is the least cautious with me, but even when I introduce her to something new is that way with me too. So I think SD was trying to get the toy from the husky and the husky jumped back and that is when SD said what she said to her. Our lab and other medium sized mixed breed dog are not like that at all so SD gets caught off guard by the husky's different behavior.
This kid is manipulating you both and should be in trouble.
Rather than coddling her when she does something she knows damned well is wrong by giving her the "You're not in trouble, but....." . Try "You know that that is inappropriate and you know you are manipulating and are going to get in trouble. So, (throw your makeup away - on the makeup topic) (Go stand in the corner because you know that pussy is not an appropriate word), etc..." She plays the crocodile tears bullshit when she has been caught. She does not get caught, guess what? No crocodile tears, Stop tenderizing the situation and apply actual consequences. This is not a 4yo this is a pre-teen. Time for her to feel since she obviously chooses not to listen and is purposely making poor decisions.
IMHO of course,
Back in the day, this crap was resovled by "Knock it off or I will give you something to cry about!" Which nipped it in the bud immediately. Their fee fees were not tolerated to mitigate them living consequences for their chosen actions.
I miss those days
Of actual correction. Parents trained their children AWAY from the natural innate self centeredness and did NOT indulge it.
DH would love to say that exact line to SD, but with
everything with her and the therapist, etc. he does not say that. Instead we take the approach of telling SD there is nothing to be upset over or cry about that she is not in trouble, injured, etc. Unfortunately, we have taken more of a gentler approach to handling SD because of BM's quickness to try and call CPS, the therapist, etc. When I say gentler, it just is in the way we speak to SD, expectations have not and will not change, rules have not and will not change, etc. because we don't coddle like that especially when she is coddled over there and we want to help her be more independent. Even her teacher said in the parent teacher conference that SD wants her hand held and she needs to learn that she needs to be more independent. Which is how we have felt for years.
Another way to look
at is that SD may be feeling a little unsettled having a baby sister who gets to stay with you all the time. That doesn't mean she doesn't get corrected, not by any means. But it could mean she's reacting normally when she gets called out by being upset and not that she's trying to manipulate you. What concerns me is if you start seeing her as manipulative with little evidence that's what's going to stick in your head and could make you resent her.
Which I totally get feeling unsettled about having a
baby sister. Although she has has me several times now if we are going to have another baby and when I tell her I don't know. She says we should, she wants another younger sibling, etc. Unfortunately, babies get more attention because they are 100% relying on DH and I. But DH and I made a big effort to also make sure we were including SD and she still got one on one time, etc. It would take more than this to make me have negative feelings towards SD. I was bothered by the journal thing, so I put a show on for SD and removed myself from the situation for about a half hour so I could get over it and go on like normal and continue being normal the rest of the visit. Only thing was that I told DH he was going to have to address the make up thing that I was not going to do it after already having corrected her on other things and he was home to do so.
I agree with
Granny - you are truly a good stepmother. SD is very lucky to have you.
You are correct
The being upset at the slightest admonishment
The inappropriate language
The obsession with makeup at a young age
The referring to stepdad as dad
The negative attention
The A.S.S. (Adult Spousal Status) at the BM's house
The BM asking SD to pry, putting SD/DH calls on speakerphone when at BM's house/asking SD to "report back/spy" on your household
All major signs that she is being exposed at the BM's home to guerilla style PAS. Problem is the number of western courts that even recognize that PAS even exists are minute.
I would NOT leave her unsupervised around either family pets much less DD. All of these behaviors are SO familiar to me. Every last feral of Chef's did this. She will be calling DH by his first name shortly and soon the fake excuses will surface as to why she can't stay at your place for more than a day, soon to be followed by no visitation at all. It's a clear pattern that will not be recognized by courts when the target parent is NCP biodad and SM exclusively.
Love that term and you are right: courts here do not recognize this very real threat when PAS is in fact a form of child abuse in my book.
All of this. The fake excuses started here while we were still dating.
While I get what Dollbabies said above--and ultimately the child at this stage is the VICTIM of PAS--I also believe that the best way to deal with it is to make sure no coddling takes place -- that firm boundaries are set and maintained. If your SD lived closer, I'd strongly recommend therapy NOW because she is likely dealing with all kinds of conflicting feelings and clearly being pulled to one (toxic) side. I imagine that since you all have a new baby, BM is using that fact as a weapon to turn your SD against you all. SD is being replaced, you know (sigh), while mommy's house is her safe and loving place (puke).
Last summer she called DH by his first name a couple of times
which we addressed it, told the therapist, and had a conversation with BM about it (which went no where because BM deny, deny, deny SD's account of getting in trouble at BM's if she doesn't call DH by his first name). It had stopped, at least over here especially when BM got called out on it by DH. SD is in therapy and we have reached out to the therapist about the changes we have seen just so she is aware. I do suspect that she is using DD as a weapon against SD's relationship with us. We also worry that BM is going to say that now that we have DD that SD won't come here anymore like what happened to SD's sister. Which us adults all know that would never happen and that was not at all what happened, but BM can absolutely brainwash her into thinking that is true.
Calling a parent/SParent by
Calling a parent/SParent by their first name. Oh hell no. Not as a child. Kids do not get to choose what they refer to adults as. That is up to the specific adult and only the specific adult.
My SKid started calling me Dad(dy) when he first started talking. His choice. His mom nor I told him to do it. As his communication ability matured he started referring to his Spermidiot as Daddy (First Name), and in his late teens into his 20s started referreing to SpermDad as "Gangster Dad". At 32 he still refers to him as Gangster Dad or by his first name. Again not something his mom or I have mandated or asked for. SS refers to the dumbass as the dumbass has earned.
That said. SS came home from a SpermLand visitation when he was about 10. SpermGrandHag has harped on him calling me dad that entire 5wk summer visit. SS told me "Gramma said you are not my dad and I can't call you dad.". I told SS that if he no longer wanted to call me dad he could call me "Mr. (Lastname)". I am not his uncle and I do not let anyone but my niece and nephews call me Uncle (First Name). He gave it a quick thought and told me he would stick to dad since that is what I had always been to him. About 12yrs after that conversation my son asked me to adopt him. He was 22. We made that happen.
If I were the BioDad I would likely not allow my kid to refer to their StepDad as "Dad" when they were in my presence. No need for a huge blow out fight, just "I'm your dad. He is your mother's husband. I am fine if you call him dad when you are at your mom's house. In this house, he is not your dad, I am. He is your mother's husband. So, other than dad, what do you want to dall him when you are talking about him in this house?"
Daddy (First Name) was how my SS chose to deal with this when he was in the low to mid single digit ages. I made it all his choice with clear limits when he was older and SpermGrandHag was pulling her bullshit. Kids are smart. Particularly kids who are raised with standards of behavior and standards of performance and with the facts. They get the facts in an age appropriate manner usually in response to manipulation, lies, or PAS from the toxic opposition. When raised with standards, provided guidance, and given the facts to clarify it all, none of this has to be a complex or challenging process. Unless, the toxic opposition side is committed to being toxic. At which point the kids will need more firm boundaries and to be firmly fed the facts they need to navigate the toxicity on that side of their life.
We evolved this model over the 18+ years we lived under a CO which started before SS-32 was less than 1yo, evolved with the CO update that occurred a few days after we married a few days before SS turned 2yo, and again when SS was nearly 11. The facts counter the toxicity model continued after SS turned 18 and aged out from under the CO.
Kids need the facts in an age appropriate manner in order to protect themselves from manipulation as they grow up and then live their adult lives. Those who are toxic rarely just stop their crap when a kid turnes 18.
IMHO of course.
Just a thought
I've been thinking about the contrast that there is in her two homes. Her mother yells at her and curses at her, her SF seems to be a bully, her sister is seriously troubled and nobondy seems to be bothered with her (I'm basing this on her homework and lack of progress, etc.). She probably feels non-existant. Now look at your home, she's clearly loved, you do things together, you have helped her make progress - she feels valued. She's even been involved in the baby's life and seems to enjoy it. I wonder if the tears are because she doesn't want to let you down ... she wants you to be proud of her.
Yes, her mother is probably wholeheartedly PASing her but it's not as if she can walk away from her. Calling her SF dad has probably been drummed into her. Who knows what means BM is using to get her way.
That is what my mom said is that she doesn't want to
disappoint us, which she isn't disappointing us. Even the best behaved children in the world get corrected by their parents at some time or another. No one is perfect and as parents it is our job to help guide the children to be good people and productive members of society. We definitely are proud of her and have praised her especially on how great of a big sister she has been to DD, how she is doing better in school, etc. We don't kiss her ass all day, every day about it, but we definitely are encouraging. When we have corrected her, we correct her, have a conversation about it, and then it is done not brought up again.
I don't have a good feeling
I don't have a good feeling about this. When is SD supposed to visit you next? The holidays?
I'm sure SD is making the connections... more tears = more attention = my way.
The manipulation is real and that is when SD14s starting rearing up, around 8 - 9 years old. And that was with 50/50 too.
SD14 was definitely PASed when she was younger. But DH had the chance to set the facts straight the following week. You and your DH literally don't have the time to do damage control. The time you DO have with SD is correcting poor behavior.
I wish I had a magic answer for how to correct PAS with a long distance SD, but I don't. Just mentally prepare yourselves for the teenage years. It might be time to consider disengaging.
Fortunately, though,
manipulation only works if the bio plays along and it doesn't sound as if this Dad is susceptible.
I haven't read all of the
I haven't read all of the other responses, but I would like to tell you that SD crying could be seen as a compliment.
Likely, with her mom, showing emotion while being raged at is something she is not safe enough to do.
I grew up in a contentious household with parents prone to raging and lecturing and spankings. It was not a safe place to show emotions. You either got ridiculed for being a sensitive cry baby or the raging would escalate.
The fact that she feels safe to show her feelings is important and I would encourage you to talk to her about those feelings. Validate them. To you, it seems hyper sensitive and you may suspect it's manipulative. But, for someone who lives in a contentious household where you must hide your feelings, she may feel like a pressure cooker that may "blow" once in a safe environment.
So many similarities to my
So many similarities to my situation with SD and she is 100% PAS'd and brain washed to dispise anything I like or do.
When she was 3-8 I was a doting SM to her. Bought her beautiful clothes, made sure her room was girly, bought her shoes, toys ect. Now, she's 10 I don't as she doesn't play with anything I buy her anymore and I get no thanks for it anymore. What's the point? She can't even stand being in the same room as me now.
I know it's because she goes home to BM and BM spins a negative wrap on it, then the following week she's all of a sudden not interested. I remember she wanted to play keyboard and I bought her little stickers on the keys to show her the notes and she can read the music book. I spent ages doing that, then the following week not interested in it and now it's stored under her bed unused. I'm keeping for DD now. Dh was more appreciatiave than she was.
I hope it doesn't get that bad, but the manipulative behaviour is there.. it sucks you can't parent her properly because of BM controlling the outcome. It's hard and frustrating. I now am pregnant with our 3rd and just have no effs anymore if she kicks up a stink with our house rules. I have too many of my own to care for and she's old enough to respect our rules and live by them.