Different Co-Parenting Styles
I've mentioned that BM opposed the custody change. Today after a parent-teacher conference DH had a long talk with her about why, and she informs him that (just as I've guessed) it's because "she doesn't know us" and "she's not willing to allow her children to spend more time with people who don't like her."
I'm so furious. The decision about custody shouldn't be about how *she* feels, emotionally. Her issues have nothing to do with whether the kids would benefit from a change in custody, but whether she is getting "what she needs" from us. The plain fact is, no, I don't like her. But I have very strict rules about how I behave toward her (as opposed to how I think about her) and how I communicate with the children about her. She is always supported with the kids -- I have never and will never say anything to disrespect or demean her with them, I always talk about what a great mom she is and how lucky they are. I am never disrespectful or uncivil or unkind to her. DH has the same approach.
Why does she think we don't like her? Because we aren't "friends" with her and ask her how her life is going, how her new job is going, and tell her how great she is all the time, and hold her hand and murmur sympathetically when she wants to fuss and wring her hands during a 1/2 long conversation OVER NOTHING. This lady wanted to talk to DH for 1/2 hour over how the first grade teacher is upsetting SD (7) because she marks SD's papers in red pen, and SD IS UPSET BY THE RED PEN MARKS. This lady thinks that "collaborating" over a birthday party means 10 CALLS A DAY for SEVERAL DAYS IN A ROW to fuss over EVERY DETAIL. I think it means reaching agreement on date, time, place and actitivies, dividing responsibility, and sharing costs.
What we DO is we communicate to her about -- frequently and openly -- the kids, and only about the kids. We approach this communication in a business-like manner--nice, but business-like. I have a long chain of saved emails that demonstrate frequent, open, respectful communication about the kids. What BM really wants to feel validated as a person and as a parent, and I don't think that's a valid co-parenting issue!!
We have different parenting styles between the two households, she and her husband are attachment-parenting-without-discipline and DH and I are disclipinary-style-with-attachment. We are open to discussing when the two styles create conflicts for the kids, but every time we've raised the issue it's just seen as criticism, and she's NEVER raised it with us. I've done a lot of research on this and it is inevitable that there are going to be some different rules and parenting styles between the two households, and kids learn to obey the rules where they are, and get the benefits of the different parenting styles.
The thing is, BM is a hand-wringing, fluttery, gushy type of person whose definition of communication and collaboration is just 180 degrees from mine or DH's. She wants to talk about how *she feels* about the kids, i.e., how it feels *to her* when they are upset, and have her hand held until *she* feels better -- she doesn't want to talk about *the kids*. The simple fact is, the more "personal" communication we allow, the more conflict it creates. So we see it as better for the kids to keep communications more straightforward. And, now, she's holding the kids' hostage until we give in to her emotional wavelength.
We just have different visions of what "extended family" and "co-parenting" means. And she frankly admitted that she's using her power as "the mom" to try to force her vision on us, or she will deny us the kids.
My marriage will not survive if I have to bend to a third-person emotional partner in my marriage. It just won't.
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Comments
Oh Gwen
She sounds like she needs "emotional support" from your DH and using the kids as leverage!!! How awful. Our ex is similar in the fact that she wants to be "friends" as well. I blew a fuse that what should have taken 10 minutes turned into a 72 minute conversation between his ex and DH. He never talks to her in my presence anymore...I just can't handle listening to him be her "advisor" and you put it perfectly: her hand-holder. DH can tell whenever he doesn't allow her to be Chatty Cathy, she gets mad. (Too bad.)
Anyway I'm so sorry this woman has the power to withhold the kids though. Some bios think they "own" their kids soley w/o giving any regard to the dad's rights. Hang in there!
This is emotional blackmail.
And it is abuse. Get proof of this behavior and show it to the judge. Do some research on how to effectively cope with her manipulation and share this information with your husband. Work together as a team to eliminate her power over you.
BM once told my husband that she was upset that we did not 'talk' to her during exchanges. This after she had dragged us to court over nothing, even had papers delivered to him on Father's Day weekend to try to order supervised visitation at her home, insulted and abused us and our families, and did everything she could to hurt us, including not allowing visitation. And we were awful people because we did not 'talk' to her and act nice. She said she deserved respect because she is his mother. And what about the respect his father deserves?
It is a new business
The relationship should change into a new business like arrangement. So many of the BM's just don't get. They emotionally shit on their own children and the men that are divorced from. The 'Woo is me' routine is sickening. It's unbelievable to me. Why do they think just because they are the MOTHER, they can do and say whatever they want. They run the show.
My BF did so much 'hand holding' in the first several months, it made me crazy. We had to drop whatever we were doing so he could help her through HER feelings. That's the damb therapist job.
It took time, but I slowly got through to my BF what the beauty of divorce is. And it is still a daily process. There is so much drama that surround BM an it spills into MY house.
This whole 'friends' thing I think is weird. I feel it's just another way for them to keep one foot in the door and their nose in your business.
Jo
Does this look like
poor communication to you? This is a recent email string:
From: [Bm]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:32 AM
To: [DH and SM]
Subject: misc
Just a little folllow-up:
[SS']s book report & the valentines are under control but I am going to send along the classwork the kids would have done tomorrow morning. It also might include a "re-do" math page of [SS]'s depending on if he gets it done this morning. Their work will be in their class folders in their backpacks.
Tomorrow at some point please call [School]'s attendence line: [number] or the kids will get a note sent home.
Lastly, Tuesday afternoon the children will be picked up by my parents and not go to [after school activity].
I will tell them but if you remember, please remind them.
Thanks
DH and SM Response:
All good, we will take care of homework and call the attendance line tomorrow. And remind the kids about the Tuesday schedule, no problem.
WE DO THIS KIND OF THING ALL THE TIME. We send similar emails when necessary explaining things on our end. We also send emails if we have a concern about a child emotional issue. These things also get communicated during drop-offs. We go to joint bday parties, soccer games, plays, and all sit together and smile. No one ever talks badly about the other family and is always supportive. Grown-up issues are left to the grown-ups. I think it's EXCELLENT co-parenting communication. What the heck am I missing??? I am not going to be her FRIEND. I DON'T EVEN LIKE HER. I DIDN'T MARRY HER.
But I love her kids and so I act nicely and respectfully toward her.
WHY ISN"T THAT ENOUGH
Sorry, I'm pretty much beside myself right now and just ranting . . .
DH wants to know, what do we do NOW?
I don't know, I just don't. For once I'm at a loss. I'm usually very solution oriented. But, what do we do now?? Help.
We communicate like this also.
I think what you are doing is fine... Usually, my DH is the one to send the notes or call BM.. But when I do it, Its short and to the point. I, like you , do not want to be this woman's friend, and I don't think she wants to be mine either... It is rare that I even get a response from her when I send an email... But at least I know that I communicated what ever it was that needed to be "said"... That is what is important...
Friendly BM
Mmmmmmmmm - just a hunch but sounds like BM respects YOU a lot and sees you as a co-parent. It's a compliment to you that she fills you in so much.
If you see her a lot it's difficult not to cross the line. Sometimes it's hard to strike a balance - ie) the email sounds a bit like she's your social secretary, but I'm sure she's just keeping you in the loop.
Hang in there
That was a good email
that email is actually what I consider excellent co-parenting communication. My point is, why does she need more than that? She wants sooo much more, and I don't think it's necessary to do more than that. Sometimes the emails are more about the kids' emotions and less practical -- i.e., "SD is having a hard time with ______. Could you talk to her a little about it?" Perfect! That's perfect! I consider that excellent communication -- I would be on cloud nine if we could all agree that's all that's needed. My big beef is that she spent an hour yelling at my DH yesterday telling him she won't give him increased time, in part because "we don't communicate". ????? (The other reason was "because you don't like me". Well, go figure, mama drama. That's the reason you got a divorce. You don't need to like each other to co-parent well, you only need to respect each other.)
Like I said, peoples are probably grumbling about how they wish they had my problem. She does respect my opinion and include me, and I appreciate that. My problem is she's TOO friendly, for her own reasons. She's insecure and not a very capable person. She needs everyone to like her and, she knows they like her when they listen to her little dramas and tell her what a good job she's doing. Nope. I'm not her keeper and neither is my DH. It's just not going to happen. If it does, I'm out of here. There's only room enough for one wife in this marriage, and DH has got his hands full validating me
Gwen
That was good communication. That sounds like you guy are doing well by the kids. What the hell more does she want. Am I missing something?
Jo
My question
exactly. I am at work and trying to concentrate but I am so unhappy. When DH and I were dating we waited until we knew we were serious (8 months!) before I met the kids. When it came time to meet BM, I invited her to coffee and she brought the kids and we sat and talked, I told her where I come from and about my family and she saw how the kids interacted with me. That was two and a half years ago. Like I said, we email ALL THE TIME, in addition to drop-off interaction and the occasional phone call. We also spend at least 15 events a year with BM and her DH where we all have a chance to interact. She knows I'm a lawyer, love children's books, love dogs and outdoor activities, and care very, very much about her kids. She knows that I like roxy surfer clothes and taught her daughter how to do a "princess wave". She knows I lived in Alaska for a year. She knows where I went to law school. She knows that I was engaged eight years ago but my fiance died in a car accident. She knows that DH and I impose stricter discipline on the kids and that she and her DH are "more lenient." (her words. She doesn't want to hear what either I or DH has to say about that, trust me.) She knows I email her whenever necessary with info on kids' clothes, homework, etc. What more does she want to know? Religion? Politics? Food allergies? And if she doesn't agree, do I have to change my mind or else we can't have the kids?
She says we are "insular." Guess what? I have a crazy busy life (which I'd like to change but can't change jobs because all DH's $ goes to her) so I don't have time to socialize with my OWN family and friends, much less invite this flutterbudget into my (non-existent) social circle. I have time for my DH and my kids. Honestly, she's always having little parties and things and bully for her, but in truth it's pretty much just me and DH and we're best friends and don't have many others around. So it's not just that we are insular WITH HER AND HER DH, it's that we are pretty insular people--frankly our jobs require so much socializing that we are just worn out when there is a free evening, and if we are not worn out we want to spend time with each other. But we are good parents. We say grace at the table and emphasize kindness to other people. She already knows that stuff.
I don't respond to her emotional flare-ups when they happen because she wouldn't like what I have to say. I choose to keep mostly quiet on personal stuff because if you can't say something nice, why say anything at all, right? I tell her what great kids she has, shouldn't that be the only nice thing I have to say?? What more does she want?? She wants a Big Happy Extended Family Who Socialize Together and Support Each Other Emotionally. She wants to represent to the world that she is "friendly with her ex and his new wife".
I think it is so selfish of her to deny her kids the time they need with their dad, simply because she feels like we don't like her as a person and aren't "social" enough for her. If she has a communication issue about THE KIDS, then let's have it. It's been four years and I haven't heard that from her yet.
Still ranting . . . sigh. Back to work, I guess.
TMI
K, for anyone who's still paying attention, 'pologies for all the personal info ... TMI ... like I said, I'm ranting. I spent four years untangling my DH from her emotional snares (therapist called it "enmeshment" and helped DH see why bad, very bad). Now she is using the only currency she has to try to lure him back into the fold. Aarrrgghhh. What's a DH to do? I can't live with her anymore than I already do (did I mention it's ALOT), and he can't live without his kids. Why can't she focus on her new DH and leave mine (and me) alone?
I think I'm going to go write her a 20 page letter and then burn it. Silly, callow, ridiculous, fluttery, approval-craving ninny. *stalks off, muttering angrily to self*
No Apologies Necessary
Gwen, when I read other people's personal stories it inspires me and gives me hope and strength to face my own struggles...so thanks for being "real" and not just sharing surface stuff all the time. I think that's what is so wonderful about this site. It feels real and the people are obviously survivors. For tonight I am going to not fill my head with thoughts of the ex...I'm going to try thinking of Peaceful Thoughts for a change.
Thanks
Thanks to all for your support. Peaceful Thoughts sound wonderful, but elusive for me. I hope you found them. One thing tonight did make me smile -- tonight is our one weeknight (once every 6 weeks, rest are weekends) with skids. They came over and I put on a smile and hugged them and talked to them about their weekend and first day back at school after the long weekend. The stress of the custody issue is weighing heavily so I could only keep the smiles up for so long, and then retreated into the corner (with the computer) and let DH take over. After a bit SS, 8, looks over at me and says "Gwen, you look stressed. Is everything alright?" and he comes and gives me a hug. I love my SS soooo much!
Aren't SS's Dreamy?
I can't even tell you how much I love my SS (15) He is zero maintenance and just laughs at all sorts of stuff and is still such a silly heart. So grateful for him...And No peaceful thoughts on this end either...anxiety attacks in middle of night instead. Oh well, today is another day.
Find her a
MAN.. of her own.
I know that for me and my husband, his ex although she is nice and all. She still tried that too. You know calling when something was wrong with her not kid.. Its take a lot for me to start communicating with her, but so far its a lot better for "our" kids. I am not her best friend but we are friendly. Just last Sunday because my SS did a "bad" thing and is away for awhile.. he got a 4 hour pass and originally it was suppose to be Bm, SS and SD for first two hours and then Hubby and I and SD and SS for last two. Well BM wanted to be there for all 4 hours so she went to lunch with us. And it was weird. Because her and I are total opposites. I am loud and tell you like it is, and she is quiet and I don't think ever says a cuss word.. But the kids benefit from it. And I think my hubby is a little more at ease with things. One thing I have done is taken a stance with him on communication with her and also with his kids. I told him yesterday that I will be included in all things. Because its not right for me to be good enough for doing this and not for that. We are family and I am part of it. He totally agreed. (we had gotten a big envelope which I thought was something about me again so of course I was on the defensive) turned out it was my SD grades. And I talked to BM today.
I agree with all of you on here that being *friends* is not the right thing, but it does benefit the kids and as SM we need every little bit of help there.
Its hard.. Trust me.. But then its times like when my husband says that he realizes that the divorce was the best thing because now he has me.. So its things like that that make it easier. And I am a insecure person.
My kids* benefit from there dad and I talking and me talking to his GF. I have tried so hard to not put her where we are on here. Because I would feel horrible. She is a nice person as well. But it makes me wonder if I ever do without really noticing..
Thanks for listening.. I am just rambling on..
Happy
Our Rightful Place
Thanks Happy, I've been insecure as to what my place actually is too but since finding this site, I am getting clarity and more confident in my role.
PS How long did it take to get over being self-conscious in the exes presence? I will be seeing her more often than not and I am also opposite in personality...the ex is a quiet, bible born again type and me...well, I'm still a happy go lucky sinner, whos not shy at all. LOL
Oh honey I never
said I did not feel awkward still. I am sure this sunday we are all doing the visit thing with SS and she called my hubby and said she would like to go to breakfast too. Each time it gets easier. And since I can do it easily with my ex and his gf and family and I see my kids really benefit from that I need to remember that his kids are still kids too. I really hope that this will not continue forever. really. I mean I like her, I do not want to be best friends and I guess thinking of it, it would be easier if she had a man to call her own. Seriously. But some woman are to scared if I may to go out there in that scene again. I am not one of those. I am the type you knock me down I am back up fighting to find my Place again. Shit if I was going to give up on men I would have at the age of 19.. And that is not reality.
You will find peace and comfort in being around her. And it does suck because I want my hubby to forget his past but yet I don't for his kids. So its a struggle for me. But trust me the kids benefit more then we think when we as adults can put our own "selfishness" behind us and put them first. That is not always easy. As I said its not always easy for me. Because I found out today poor Caitlyn is dealing with a 53 year old immature lady who makes my immaturity at 31 seem like a fart in the wind. (hope I did not offend anyone)..
Bonus Wife your screen name says so much. You are a bonus, for all involved. When the children realize that you make dad happy and everything, things will fall into place.
I am here for you and will try to help you thru the steps of all of it. (i myself am still learning).
I have noticed a positive thing though as where my husband used to be afraid of us talking he supports it now and he also realizes that by letting me control some of the stuff I am much happier which in turn makes his life much happier.
Love to ya..
happy
Thanks
Thanks for your thoughts Happy. We do communicate, I communicate and DH communicates with BM all the time, about things large and small, and the kids are fine. They are happy, well-adjusted kids. And she is remarried and should be going to her new DH for her emotional needs, not me or my husband. If communication with my DH or me is about the kids, that's fine. But it's usually not about the kids, it's about how *she feels* about the kids and how hard things are for her, and what should we do, agonize, hand-wring, drama. And I draw the line at that.
I know others draw the line elsewhere, but I was very clear before I agreed to marry DH where our boundaries needed to be. He agreed with me, and made his choice. And she fell in line, largely because she had her new DH to dump on. But it's been awhile, and she misses the control, the power, the ability to impose her drama on us. She is the kind of woman who wants to wrap everyone up in fretting and hand-wringing. For example, she spent my SS's entire childhood imagining that he had celiac disease and autism and any number of illnesses. He is a fine, healthy kid. BM has been frustrated that we have been able to draw boundaries, not because the kids have any unmet needs, but because she is not in control of the emotional dynamic. And now she has leverage: custody. So we are back here again. I nearly lost my mind for 2.5 years of her drama. I won't go back. I respect, but don't agree, with the school of thought that I need to accept her as an emotional partner in my marriage for the good of the kids. The kids are doing great with the boundaries just as they are. In fact, I think they are the ones who will suffer if the boundaries get moved again. I've done a lot of research on co-parenting, and they typically agree that a business-like approach that avoids personal triggers is the best for the kids.
I appreciate your weighing in, and I am glad you have found a good balance with the BM in your life. I agree 100% that my life and expectations need to be adjusted for the good of my skids; the thing is, I have already done that and continue to do that in spades. I just don't think that the good of the kids mean that she gets to draw the boundaries and I have to stand by and take it. *pounds fist and climbs off soapbox* Honestly -- I don't think that's what you were suggesting, I'm just really sensitive after staying up until 1:30 in the morning agonizing with my feelings, and after nights like this I'm prone spouting off long lectures about what's right and wrong. I thank y'all for letting me. Because the least productive thing I could do right now is lecture HER, and believe me, I am itching to. (But I never do).
You are right..
My bm thing is different. I too believe in setting boundaries..
I wish you luck getting thru this and I am here to give you support..
My best, Happy
So nice
You are so nice about me being so strident, which I know I am. Thank you for your indulgence and kindness toward me. It means so much.
In the interest of solutions: When DH and I first laid these boundaries I suggested to DH, and he suggested to BM, that they make available a specific time each week or every two weeks for the two of them to talk about the kids, and so she could "dump" her stuff. A phone call on a specific day between such and such a time, e.g. Then I can prepare for it mentally so I don't feel sandbagged at inappropriate times, and she could have an outlet just in case there is some nugget of kid-related importance buried in all that goo. (of course, urgencies and emergencies would be an exception) She never took advantage of this suggestion, pretty much implying that if she couldn't have whole hog access to my DH for whatever purposes suit her, then she wasn't buying in. It made me think skeptically of her true motives, not shockingly.
Last night I suggested to DH he might try this approach again, either with her directly, or with her and a co-parenting counselor, or with her and the custody mediator. I have the feeling any counselor or mediator worth their salt would support this approach, which I think is a rational compromise. I fear giving this woman an inch, but I want to make some move toward compromise that is supportive of my DH's bid toward increased time with his kids. I could potentially live with this--I do much better when I am prepared for arm-waving than when emotional turmoil gets dumped on me out of nowhere.
Any time..
I am always here to listen and usually I have to comment back. That is just me. I know crazy huh..
* I get joy out of helping people.. I should have been a nurse but bed pans frighten me..
Always here for you Gwen..
Happy
Gee wizz
Gwen, I'm so sorry this lady is sucking the life out of you. I know I'm new to this, but, it's sounds like you go above and beyond to keep things smooth. Yet, somehow that not enough for this lady?UNREAL.
I give you credit. Alot of credit. I would have loss it awhile ago.
I don't even no what to say to you, but i'm sending a prayer and a hug.
Jo
So great to get some credit!
Thanks Little Jo!!! I do try really hard. To be fair, a lot of people are probably reading this and grumbling that they wish they had my problem!
BM has never tried to exclude me, so I have not had to deal with that side of it, and for that I am grateful. I *want* to collaborate with BM to solve skid problems, and the good news is that she wants me to, too. The bad news is that she ALWAYS thinks that there's a problem, and we disagree over the meaning of "collaborate" in a zero-sum fundamental sort of way where if she gets her way, my boundaries (and sanity) are totally violated. Boundaries are important to protect me and my marriage, and I deserve that, and so does my marriage. And so do my skids!
My problem with her boundaries reminds me of a problem I have with DH, where his approach to resolving something is to pack it away and forget about it, and mine is to discuss it and identify solutions. My need to discuss and work through is a zero sum violation with his need to ignore it. These are tough issues. But I am more willing to work with DH--because I love him and married him--than with BM, whom I didn't marry and don't like. I work with her as far as needed to take care of these beautiful children. and. no. more. *pound, pound, pound*
Hugs and prayers are the BEST. Thanks!!!
No crap Fearless
you crack me up and I love it. I can picture you with your snap snap I don't think so.. It kills me.. Thank you.. Its kinda funny you can tell peoples personalities on here. You should be a comedian. I love you... Seriously keep up the great humor. Although I am sure you have valid stuff to talk about but when you do that its hilarious..
you go witcha bad self..
Happy
Fear Nuttin!
I am ROLLING!!!
You crack me up -- you an' I are on the same page, only you are sooooo funny!! I need to take a page or ten from your book when I am feeling morose, petulant, or strident, and when the world kicks me in the ass, turn around and kick it back. Thanks for making me laugh out loud, hard, for the first time in a day and a half 
Fearless,
You are a flippen riot!!!!
I would NEVER want to be friends with our nut-job. Even if she wasn't married to my future husband. If I met her on the street, I'ld keep right on walking.!
Hang in Gwen.